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Wasting talent in CHL, evidence

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11-17-2012, 10:55 AM
  #1
vorky
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Wasting talent in CHL, evidence

Season 08/09

It was debut season of KHL. No MHL, no VHL yet. I looked at guys born 1990 who played CHL that season and guy who prefered euro-route of developing (KHL-VHL-MHL). It is important to know that MHL was created in 09/10 and VHL one season later. So, both developing/junior leagues did not work in 08/09. Now they are working, so we can see results a bit later (especially guy born 1994/95 who stayed at home).


Number of Russians (stats: EP)

Quote:
WHL
F Fisenko, today Amur/KHL

QMJHL
F Kugryshev, today CSKA/KHL
F Ostapchuk,
D Kulikov, today NHL
F M.Gratchev, today Sibir/KHL
F Cheremetiev, does he play hockey?
D Kostromitin, today Chelmet/VHL
F Dostoinov, today NLB/Suiss
D Tulupov, today Avto-Amur/KHL
D Golovkov, today Vityaz/KHL

OHL
F E.Gratchev, today AHL
F Loktionov, today AHL
F Korostin, today VHL
F Denezkin, today Spartak/KHL
D Molotilov, today VHL
F Bessonov, does he play hockey?

WJC 2008/09 roster (Russia, 3rd)

http://stats.iihf.com/Hydra/172/IHM1720RUS_33_1_0.pdf

Quote:
G Alistratov, today VHL, no CHL/AHL route
G Zhelobnyuk, today VHL, no CHL/AHL route
F Andronov, today AHL, played KHL 11/12
F Chernov, today Vityaz/KHL, no CHL/AHL route
D Chudinov, today SKA/KHL, no CHL/AHL route
F Dadonov, today Donbass/KHL, no CHL route, left KHL/jumped to AHL (09/10)
F Filatov, today Salavat Yulaev/KHL, 5 games among seniors (RSL) before AHL (08/09)
D Golovkov, see above
D Goncharov, today AHL, played KHL before leaving
D Khafizullin, today Vityaz/KHL, no CHL/AHL route
F Klopov, today VHL, no CHL/AHL route
F Klyukin,
F Komaristiy, today Neftekhimik/KHL, no CHL/AHL route
D Pashin, today Lokomotiv/KHL, no CHL/AHL route
F K.Petrov, today Ak Bars/KHL, no CHL/AHL route
F A.Potapov, today Torpedo/KHL+VHL, no CHL/AHL route
D Tokranov, today Ak Bars/KHL (injured?), no CHL/AHL route
D Voynov, today NHL (?), no CHL route, left RSL/jumped to AHL (08/09)
IMO nobody of guys played CHL in 08/09 benefited from playing CHL, maybe Kulikov. Guys who came back to Russia are „nothing special“ today,3 or 4 liners in KHL team or VHLers. Another example is Chudinov, playing KHL all the time, who is top D-man. Alexander Osipov (born 89, Amur) is great D-man, playing whole career in KHL. Definitelly better D than guys choosing CHL route. I would mention D Zaytsev (born 91, Sibir) as well, he is a bit younger but better than Molotilov-type-of-players. Or not?

Forwards, returnees from CHL are nothing special as I said. Ostapchuk had potential, unfortunatelly he is dead. Loktionov played a few NHL games, but has he achieved his potential? What about others (ex-CHLers)? Who are they? Lets say Voynov´s route was right, but he did not play CHL, he had experiance from senior level hockey (RSL). It can not be said about Filatov, who did not play senior hockey before leaving Russia (ok, 5 games ). Dadonov is something among Voynov and Filatov, played KHL before leaving/came back to KHL. And now KHL route of developing – Kirill Petrov. So who made right decision?

Would be great if someone compared another seasons.

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Old
11-17-2012, 11:53 AM
  #2
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we had discussed this a million times, I believe there are Russian players who would benefit from CHL, but they are far and few between, for the most part - they are wasting their career away.

players like Korostin, Avtsyn, Kugryshev, Filatov, Nikulin (many others too), their careers were demolished by the transfer to NA.

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11-17-2012, 12:45 PM
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A much easier question to ask is how many of the Russian CHL graduates would played in the NHL regularly vs how many RSL/KHL graduates?

It doesn't take too long to realize that most Russians in the NHL are from KHL/RSL development. The only roster NHLers from CHL were Kulikov and Burmistrov, and they are relatively average players in the league. Radulov of course being the wild exception as usual. The rest would be floaters between minor leagues and NHL, spending MOST of the time in minor leagues. So, from the last season only 2 Graduates from CHL played regularly in the NHL out of 24 Russians.

You could also argue that Burmistrov's overall development compared to his peers Kuznetsov and Tarasenko is worse.

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11-17-2012, 02:35 PM
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Thanks for this!

I don't want to focus on the past too much. The players that were ruined in the CHL cannot be rejuvenated back to life. They are lost. Dead meat. Finished. It is too late for them. The real question is how can we prevent the future Russian generations from going to the CHL (Cemetery Hockey League).

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11-17-2012, 07:10 PM
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What does the MHL do better than the CHL in terms of developing Russian players?

Do you feel the CHL stifles offensive creativity; placing an emphasis on positional play and defense?

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11-17-2012, 08:08 PM
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Players are being formed to play on the small ice there, and lose out on elements you need to be successful on the big ice. Sweden hasn't had many CHL players historically, but young guys playing the heavy development years in the AHL usually struggle when going back to Europe. That's the price for trying to make the NHL.

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11-17-2012, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe89 View Post
Players are being formed to play on the small ice there, and lose out on elements you need to be successful on the big ice. Sweden hasn't had many CHL players historically, but young guys playing the heavy development years in the AHL usually struggle when going back to Europe. That's the price for trying to make the NHL.
...So it's mostly a size-of-the-ice-surface issue.

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11-17-2012, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe89 View Post
Players are being formed to play on the small ice there, and lose out on elements you need to be successful on the big ice. Sweden hasn't had many CHL players historically, but young guys playing the heavy development years in the AHL usually struggle when going back to Europe. That's the price for trying to make the NHL.
OT...I know, but how many times do I get to speak to a Swedish hockey fan?

I could never understand why Swedes adopted the trap at the international level around 1998-99.

Swedes are always so creative with the puck, so it astonished me that they would limit themselves to such a one-way, brain-dead hockey philosophy.

What was up with that?

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11-18-2012, 12:27 AM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by preissingg View Post
What does the MHL do better than the CHL in terms of developing Russian players?

Do you feel the CHL stifles offensive creativity; placing an emphasis on positional play and defense?
MHL continues what was started since day 1 in a russian player developmne/training, CHL teaches them new hockey, while they are not yet a complete player (the developmental process in the homeland isn't finished). Usually means bad news for the player, unless he's of immense talent (and even then we don't know what if he stayed home)

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11-18-2012, 01:36 AM
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Think of guitar playing as an analogy. Let's say a kid needs to master the guitar by age 22.

So from age 8-15 the kid is taught blues guitar, but then abruptly stops at 16 to learn classical. I hope people see the problem in such a decision, right?

The best option is to finish blues guitar training; then, when ready, incorporate other elements, or branch off into other styles. At the very least the kid will have a foundation in the blues.

Almost all CHL kids come back to Russia with no developed foundation.

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11-18-2012, 01:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe89 View Post
Players are being formed to play on the small ice there, and lose out on elements you need to be successful on the big ice. Sweden hasn't had many CHL players historically, but young guys playing the heavy development years in the AHL usually struggle when going back to Europe. That's the price for trying to make the NHL.
You're right but there is no point in supporting that because it doesn't make NHL better, it only makes Europe worse (because worse players are returning from CHL/AHL when they don't succeed). Thing that is clearly proven by the last 20 years or so is that those coming from Europe to NA who really have talent to make NHL better have no problem to do so in 20-22 years of age and play directly in the NHL. And at that point there are no risks you mentioned for them, because they are fully developed.

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11-18-2012, 01:58 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by preissingg View Post
What does the MHL do better than the CHL in terms of developing Russian players?

Do you feel the CHL stifles offensive creativity; placing an emphasis on positional play and defense?

There's more emphasis on skating, East-West game, puck handling, traditional Russian skills, etc. etc. Practices are longer but drawn out (skill repetition over and over).
I've read interviews where players are surprised with NA practices because they're so short and high paced.

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11-18-2012, 03:09 AM
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IMO its better for the Russians to stay in the KHL/VHL/MHL system. I mean if you have started developing in a certain way its better to become ready before leaving (like Ovechkin or Malkin did who both went to NA when they had played in the RSL already). I also think that the training in Russia is a lot better. In Europe you need to have good skills and skating abilities and players are trained to become better as individuals while in NA I often think they are just made a maybe-NHLer...

In the future I guess the Russian kids will look more closely what options what system gives them.

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11-18-2012, 07:15 AM
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To add another example, Brazillian football players wouldn't be 'brazillian football players' if they developed in England after age of 15. Different game, different emphasis. You would have some kind of a hybrid who can't really handle the ball like a Brazillian and can't play long ball like an English player.

There are always exceptions, but there are very few.

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11-18-2012, 08:15 AM
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just read KHL rules about draft, there were changes before this season.

1 Now the same rules for Russians and Non-russians who are drafted by KHL club. Club holds rights to sign a player until he is 22y old (by year, not date of birth). A player is drafted at the age 17 (by year, so draft 2013 is for 96ers). This rule applies to Non-Russians as well (in past foreigners could be drafted at the age of 20-21 I hope, club held right until 29 y old if I am correct).

This change has nothing to do with russian exodus to CHL, but stil interesting. Btw, no "discrimination" among players like in NHL. I dont agree it is discrimination but uneducated fans used this argument to bash to KHL in past (at least in Slovakia)

2 Lenght of entry level contract

A) if a kid signs at 17 (the year when is drafted), his contract is valid until 30.4. of a year when he turns 20y. So 3year deal

B) if a kid signs at 20 or 21(by year of course), his contract is valid until 30.4. of a year when he turns 22y.

The B) is a new rule.

3
A) If a players turn down offer of entry level contract, club holds right until he is 29y

B) If a players turn down offer of entry level contract, who was PROTECTED, club holds right until offer sheet is active (dont know how long, maybe 22y? see above), then club can repeat offer and extend/ prolong rights until a player is 29y.

The B) is new rule. IMO it was adopted due to CHL route, which is mostly prefered by "protected" players (Grigorenko, Zadorov, Tolchintsky, I.Barbashev, hoping Serebryakov as well, Kamaev etc). These guy HAD closed doors to KHL until they had been 29y. Now, the rule was changed. They can come back to Russia (KHL) at the age of 22/23 and sign with whoever they want (if club did not prolong rights). I think it was right step by KHL, previous rule was really bad.

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11-18-2012, 10:29 AM
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What I'm understanding is that the MHL concentrates on developing individual skill in terms of skating and handling the puck.

The CHL has a tendency to preach staying away from high risk creative plays which could backfire on the team; defensively.

It's a little bit like the CHL is teaching players to play it safe; at least at a team-wide defensive level, whereas the MHL might be said to teach more of a "go for broke"/"go for the throat" offensive philosophy.


Last edited by preissingg: 11-18-2012 at 12:58 PM.
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11-18-2012, 11:59 AM
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From my POV the game in North America is very physical and teams rather try to intimidate their opponents with fast and hard plays while in Europe (and especially in Russia) you want to outplay your opponent with skill and surprise them. Its like comparing football in England and Spain. Both are succesful but football in England is more physical while in Spain its all about technique and you got players like Messi or Ronaldo there.

What I want to say is: both systems are good to a certain point but it does more harm than good to change one philosophy for the other in the middle of the development of a player. Thats why football teams like FC Barcelona want to have the kids in their system as soon as possible. As I said you can still make the step to NA at the age of 25 and vice versa.

I can give you a short example. When we have CHL guys who come to Germany they have a real hard time to adjust but then there are all these NCAA players who are developed and who can directly make the difference, show their abilities in the European leagues fast too. Maybe thats also why at the moment more and more players from North America (even Canadians) take the NCAA path rather than playing junior hockey in Canada.

And last but not least: its good that they stop draftig older foreigners. If someone is good and the players wants to come to the KHL its better to sign them directly than drafting the same guys who want to take the CHL route before...

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11-18-2012, 12:09 PM
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If you don't want the Russian kids going to North America then do something about it like Sweden does instead of complaining, simple. I don't get how ppl involved in Russian hockey see this as a negative but don't do anything.

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11-18-2012, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wings5 View Post
If you don't want the Russian kids going to North America then do something about it like Sweden does instead of complaining, simple. I don't get how ppl involved in Russian hockey see this as a negative but don't do anything.
you are wrong (bold part). They have done a lot to improve level of play/ facilities/ training/ etc in Russia. Maybe not everything is ideal, or done already, but there is a huge progress. Problem is "russian factor"= no FHR-NHL transfer agreement. That is main reason why these kids choose CHL nowadays.

It is not fair compare Sweden and Russia. Why? Because swedish leagues are DIRECTLY connected with NHL system of development (transfer agreement, loans etc). KHL and its developing leagues are not.

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11-18-2012, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicente View Post
From my POV the game in North America is very physical and teams rather try to intimidate their opponents with fast and hard plays while in Europe (and especially in Russia) you want to outplay your opponent with skill and surprise them. Its like comparing football in England and Spain. Both are succesful but football in England is more physical while in Spain its all about technique and you got players like Messi or Ronaldo there.

What I want to say is: both systems are good to a certain point but it does more harm than good to change one philosophy for the other in the middle of the development of a player. Thats why football teams like FC Barcelona want to have the kids in their system as soon as possible. As I said you can still make the step to NA at the age of 25 and vice versa.

I can give you a short example. When we have CHL guys who come to Germany they have a real hard time to adjust but then there are all these NCAA players who are developed and who can directly make the difference, show their abilities in the European leagues fast too. Maybe thats also why at the moment more and more players from North America (even Canadians) take the NCAA path rather than playing junior hockey in Canada.
And last but not least: its good that they stop draftig older foreigners. If someone is good and the players wants to come to the KHL its better to sign them directly than drafting the same guys who want to take the CHL route before...
Do you have any proof of this.

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11-18-2012, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
you are wrong (bold part). They have done a lot to improve level of play/ facilities/ training/ etc in Russia. Maybe not everything is ideal, or done already, but there is a huge progress. Problem is "russian factor"= no FHR-NHL transfer agreement. That is main reason why these kids choose CHL nowadays.

It is not fair compare Sweden and Russia. Why? Because swedish leagues are DIRECTLY connected with NHL system of development (transfer agreement, loans etc). KHL and its developing leagues are not.
Which is why creating a transfer agreement would greatly benefit both sides. They are doing more damage then good by not coming to terms, many top prospects are leaving. They need to see the big picture and what is more important here.

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11-18-2012, 01:31 PM
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Do you have any proof of this.
Sure.

http://www.uscho.com/2012/04/10/ncaa...-11-12-season/
http://collegehockeyinc.com/articles...alums-play-nhl

If the numbers are correct then NCAA is having a huge impact in producing NHL players right now.

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11-18-2012, 01:52 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by wings5 View Post
Which is why creating a transfer agreement would greatly benefit both sides. They are doing more damage then good by not coming to terms, many top prospects are leaving. They need to see the big picture and what is more important here.
European federations have had this attitude for 20 years and are damaged by NHL. No appropriate money for drafted players. No, I dont want it. Tatar had VALID contract with slovak team when signed with Red Wings. Any problem? No, he left, no money for slovak club. Prokhorkin had VALID contract with CSKA when signed with LA. NHL refused to register his contract, he is obligated to come back to KHL (or buy out KHL contract). Can you see difference?

Gaborik was forced not to extend contract with Dukla Trencin. He signed in NHL instead. No, I dont want such cases anymore.

Europe needs to negotiate with NHL about FAIR transfer agreement and it is not possible with attitude as you described. Yes, there is trend to go to CHL nowadays but I am sure it wont take many years. Guy will stay at home until 20, I am sure. Of course not all, but real talents. Btw, does not CHL want to reduce import quota to 1?

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11-18-2012, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicente View Post
Sure.

http://www.uscho.com/2012/04/10/ncaa...-11-12-season/
http://collegehockeyinc.com/articles...alums-play-nhl

If the numbers are correct then NCAA is having a huge impact in producing NHL players right now.
Doesn't a stipulation exist whereby NHL teams don't have to offer a contract as soon to NCAA players as is required for major junior players?

I recall reading how some NHL teams definitely saw this as a positive feature for drafting college players.

Maybe this contributes to the numbers you quote here.

"A player not signed by his NHL team within two years of being drafted can re-enter the draft, as long as he is 20 years old or younger at the time of the subsequent draft. Players over 20 become unrestricted free agents.

NCAA players are an exception: NHL teams retain the rights to a college player until 30 days after the player has left college."


Last edited by preissingg: 11-18-2012 at 02:42 PM.
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11-18-2012, 03:19 PM
  #25
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http://www.iihf.com/fileadmin/user_u...IIHF_Study.pdf

little bit out of the date, but good read.

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