HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Best playoff performer to not win the Conn Smythe?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-17-2012, 10:30 AM
  #26
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 20,041
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clown Baby View Post
Hopefully, a little while longer. Danny was maybe third most important figure on that squad - the other two being Pronger and Richards.
Ah, scratch that, the OP wanted the player to have at least won a Cup.

We're getting thin on the names we haven't mentioned yet, I guess I could go the route of Mark Recchi. One Smythe worthy run in 1991 (although we all know Mario takes that regardless) plus a slew of other nice runs. Three Cups in total. I guess the knock on him would be a lower playoff PPG than you might like (147 points in 189 games)

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-17-2012, 10:32 AM
  #27
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Ohashi_Jouzu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 24,055
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Back in the day, Jean Beliveau could win the inaugural Conn Smythe Trophy in just 13 games!
Well, back in the day (earliest "NHL", pre-1920s) you could win the Stanley Cup after just a 10-20 game season. Part of why I can't give too much "career value" to some of the goalies starting to come up in the all-time discussions - even "innovators" like LeSueur, Vezina, etc.

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-17-2012, 10:59 AM
  #28
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Ohashi_Jouzu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 24,055
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Fedorov had only had one true great playoff run. He was below PPG twice out of his 4 20+ pts playoffs.
So? Just about everyone was under PPG those years in the playoffs. Surely you've heard of the dead puck era. In the first of those years for Fedorov, Juneau and Oates were the highest scoring non-Red Wings on the list at 17 points each in 21 games. Modano was in the top 10 with 14 points in 17. And in the second one, neither Yzerman, nor Sakic, nor Shanahan, nor Hull, nor Francis topped the PPG mark - that's how low scoring was in the playoffs during the DPE. Between '97 and the '04/05 lockout, teams averaged less than 27 goals per 11 playoff games.

Rule changes, etc, since the most recent lockout have helped bump that back to over 30 goals per 11 playoff games, which could translate into as much as 5 extra points to dish out per team per round (~9 points per ~1.5-2 series). And still, Krecji led the '11 playoffs with under PPG, and Brown/Kopitar led last year at exactly PPG (20 in 20)... and that's scoring being up compared to 1997-2004.

Quote:
Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Yzerman and Lidstrom were always more important to the Red Wings than Fedorov was in the playoffs.
Already been pointed out to you that this is false. At least twice, I believe.

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-17-2012, 11:02 AM
  #29
jack mullet
@jackmullethockey
 
jack mullet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Baxter, MN
Country: United States
Posts: 498
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
Crosby.
is not retired...

jack mullet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-17-2012, 11:04 AM
  #30
jack mullet
@jackmullethockey
 
jack mullet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Baxter, MN
Country: United States
Posts: 498
vCash: 500
my vote would go for Jari Kurri.

the 5 cups Edmonton won, Kurri had 14, 19, 15, 14, and 10 goals.

jack mullet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-17-2012, 11:47 AM
  #31
zeus3007*
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Red Deer, Alberta
Posts: 13,227
vCash: 500
Brodeur should have won it in 2003 instead of Giguere. Giguere carried his team, but so did Marty, while he broke goaltending records that playoff.

zeus3007* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-17-2012, 01:01 PM
  #32
TAnnala
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oulu
Posts: 13,200
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Brodeur should have won it in 2003 instead of Giguere. Giguere carried his team, but so did Marty, while he broke goaltending records that playoff.
No he should not. Brodeur was great in that cup run for Devils.

Giguere was the whole Ducks. It was clear that the team relied on him a lot more than Devils did on Brodeur. It was widely recognized before the deciding game that Giguere should win the Smythe no matter what the outcome was. It was basically more obvious than it was Tim Thomas to win it even if they would have lost to Canucks in game 7.

Giguere's Smythe was absolutely right choice. Brodeur might/should have won it many other year but that post season the Smythe was, rightfully, Giguere's.

TAnnala is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-17-2012, 01:08 PM
  #33
GuineaPig
Registered User
 
GuineaPig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Montréal
Posts: 2,136
vCash: 500
Brodeur should've won in '95.

GuineaPig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-17-2012, 01:53 PM
  #34
jack mullet
@jackmullethockey
 
jack mullet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Baxter, MN
Country: United States
Posts: 498
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Brodeur should have won it in 2003 instead of Giguere. Giguere carried his team, but so did Marty, while he broke goaltending records that playoff.
i have never liked it when someone that loses wins the smythe. just doesn't seem right.

jack mullet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-17-2012, 02:05 PM
  #35
craigcaulks*
Registered Luser.
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: East Van!
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,000
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Bure was deserving in 1994.
Linden & McLean may have had some say in it if the Canucks had won. (it's getting boring typing "if" and "won" when talking about my team)

craigcaulks* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-17-2012, 02:06 PM
  #36
craigcaulks*
Registered Luser.
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: East Van!
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,000
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Brodeur should have won it in 2003 instead of Giguere. Giguere carried his team, but so did Marty, while he broke goaltending records that playoff.
As great as he is, is Marty the luckiest goalie in NHL history?

craigcaulks* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-17-2012, 05:17 PM
  #37
vadim sharifijanov
Rrbata
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 10,513
vCash: 500
i'm going to stray from the OP's directions, because it seems like an arbitrary way to disqualify pronger. s i'm disregarding the retired and won a cup designations, even thought most of the players i'll discuss fall into one or both of those categories.

i think among guys that were/are stars, the best answers are potvin and brodeur. i'm looking at their full bodies of work, not just peak (though they both peaked high) but the consistent playoff excellence through their careers. tough not to put fedorov up there with them, but i think his body of playoff work is a step below, particularly when you factor in dominance from the very beginning of his career.

potvin slowed down after 30 (perhaps not coincidentally, also the end of the isles dynasty), but from his very first trip to the playoffs in his second season, he was great. in his third year, he made the third round and put up more than an assist per game. that was four years before he'd win the cup. and obviously he was incredible during the four cup years, and was arguably the most important islander and probably could have won the smythe in any year with the possible exception of bossy's ridiculous '82 run.

brodeur was an OT goal away from the finals his first year, and two wins from a cup at 39. in between are three cups, one of which i wouldn't have blinked if he'd won the smythe ('03-- though for my liking both niedermayer and giguere were a bit ahead of him that year). no worse than the third best player of the playoffs in any of his championship years (yes, i'm counting marty ahead of fedorov in '95, and the A line in '00). consider that after playing 18 years on some excellent, and some not so excellent, teams, he has a career playoff GAA of just over 2.00. era has something to do with this, but it ties him with hasek, puts him ahead of every other one of his contemporaries (including osgood, who played behind some nifty defenses and systems himself), with the anomalous exception of patrick lalime, who played 1/5 of the games brodeur did and retired with less than 1/5 of the wins brodeur had.


among non-superstars, i'd say carbonneau is a pretty good answer. others include: linseman, tikkanen, and a few guys from the isles dynasty: tonelli and bourne. if you think about claude lemieux's (well-deserved) reputation as one of the great playoff performers and a guy who raised his game well beyond his regular season standards, it applies just as much to all of those guys. carbonneau i would say had a better playoff resume overall than claude without thinking about it too much. i think claude is a little ahead of the other guys (over linseman because he won more, over tikkanen because he has a larger body of work, over tonelli and bourne because he was more important to his teams at his peak) but they are in the conversation.


bure i'd say definitely doesn't belong in this conversation. he was usually good-to-very good in the playoffs, and once was great. but '94, as great as it was, isn't even close to the shortlist of greatest individual runs that didn't end up with a conn smythe.


then there are the "timing" guys, where their best runs weren't the years they won. they simply peaked at the wrong time to win a smythe. forsberg, gilmour, jagr, fleury (who obviously had little team success when he was a playoff boss). but it's more interesting to me guys like potvin and brodeur, who were always in the running for the smythe and won multiple cups at their best, but just sort of happened not to walk away with a smythe in any of those years.


a perhaps more interesting question: worst career playoff performer to win the smythe?

discounting guys with thinner playoff resumes (ward, e.g.), the first name that comes to mind is nieuwendyk.

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-17-2012, 05:27 PM
  #38
GuineaPig
Registered User
 
GuineaPig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Montréal
Posts: 2,136
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
As great as he is, is Marty the luckiest goalie in NHL history?
Maybe Dryden was luckier, but I can't think of any other clear ones. Fuhr, maybe.

GuineaPig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-17-2012, 07:51 PM
  #39
kmad
Riot Survivor
 
kmad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 32,788
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
As great as he is, is Marty the luckiest goalie in NHL history?
Chris Osgood

kmad is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-17-2012, 07:54 PM
  #40
craigcaulks*
Registered Luser.
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: East Van!
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,000
vCash: 500
2 very good examples.

craigcaulks* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-17-2012, 08:03 PM
  #41
justsomeguy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 599
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Montreal Canadiens countered by buying the whole league so Beliveau had to play for them. Is this rumor or truth?
Not technically true. What they did was bring enough pressure to bear on the teams that the league voted to declare themselves a pro loop. Since the Canadiens controlled the rights to most ofthe players in the league, the individual team owners basically had to knuckle under or lose the vast majority of their players.

Really a move that was long overdue since the QSHL had long been described as "shamateur". The fact that Beliveau was making more than the bulk of NHLers while in Quebec City speaks to this.

As to the original topic, I think JC Tremblay deserved it over Roger Crozier in 1966. So did he.

justsomeguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-17-2012, 08:35 PM
  #42
jack mullet
@jackmullethockey
 
jack mullet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Baxter, MN
Country: United States
Posts: 498
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
As great as he is, is Marty the luckiest goalie in NHL history?

jack mullet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-17-2012, 09:05 PM
  #43
thom
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,267
vCash: 500
Beliveau was getting paid 25000 a year by Quebec it was part of the Quebec senior league.Many senior players in canada were getting paid.Montreal Canadians under Frank Selke bought the league and Beliveau had no choice but to sign for the habs.25000 a year in the early 50's could buy you a very nice house and a good car.

thom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-17-2012, 09:08 PM
  #44
pappyline
Registered User
 
pappyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Mass/formerly Ont
Country: United States
Posts: 4,172
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by thom View Post
Beliveau was getting paid 25000 a year by Quebec it was part of the Quebec senior league.Many senior players in canada were getting paid.Montreal Canadians under Frank Selke bought the league and Beliveau had no choice but to sign for the habs.25000 a year in the early 50's could buy you a very nice house and a good car.
In the early 50's you could buy a nice house & new car for less than $10,000.Beliveau was making incredible money as a so called amateur.

pappyline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-17-2012, 09:44 PM
  #45
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,306
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
As great as he is, is Marty the luckiest goalie in NHL history?
There is no such thing. Being a goalie is always the toughest assignment and no matter how good your team is defensively, you will have to be sharp to get anywhere.

A goalie who makes 50 saves a game obviously have a harder time than the goalie who makes 20 but they are doing the same job for their team. There is a much bigger importance in how a goalie performs when the game is on the line and on the quality of shots.

People like to call out names like Brodeur and Osgood in these kinds of discussions and I find it pretty weak. If Detroit or New Jersey won the cup with someone like Corey Hirsch in net then it would be valid but the list of goalies who "failed" on those Detroit teams contains Legace, Joseph and Ranford (and some prospects like Maracle and Hodson).

Surely if Detroit made their goalie look so much better then Joseph would have a Vezina and a cup by now, right?

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-17-2012, 09:45 PM
  #46
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,306
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
In the early 50's you could buy a nice house & new car for less than $10,000.Beliveau was making incredible money as a so called amateur.
Which is why many amateurs stayed amateurs. A lo of good players who werent generational talents stayed in the league.

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2012, 12:11 AM
  #47
JackSlater
Registered User
 
JackSlater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,315
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
There is no such thing. Being a goalie is always the toughest assignment and no matter how good your team is defensively, you will have to be sharp to get anywhere.

A goalie who makes 50 saves a game obviously have a harder time than the goalie who makes 20 but they are doing the same job for their team. There is a much bigger importance in how a goalie performs when the game is on the line and on the quality of shots.

People like to call out names like Brodeur and Osgood in these kinds of discussions and I find it pretty weak. If Detroit or New Jersey won the cup with someone like Corey Hirsch in net then it would be valid but the list of goalies who "failed" on those Detroit teams contains Legace, Joseph and Ranford (and some prospects like Maracle and Hodson).

Surely if Detroit made their goalie look so much better then Joseph would have a Vezina and a cup by now, right?
Considering that Joseph was in his mid thirties, only got to play one full season for Detroit and then got replaced by Hasek of all people, it's not a particularly strong example.

JackSlater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2012, 09:30 AM
  #48
shazariahl
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,580
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Does this include players that went to the finals?

Kurri was never going to win a Conn Smythe playing with Oilers.

Of the list, the 3 most deserving are Hasek, Potvin and Coffey.

Forsberg was always great but Roy and Sakic both outperformed him when the Avalanche won both Stanley Cups.

Bure was deserving in 1994.

Jagr could have won it in 1999 had he not gotten injured (he was already playing hurt all season long with numerous injuries).
This here. Coffey had some beastly post seasons, and was a legitimate contender - he just had too much competition from his own team. Same goes for Potvin. Hasek's best run was on a team that lost, though he still could have won.

shazariahl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2012, 12:37 PM
  #49
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 8,793
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
As great as he is, is Marty the luckiest goalie in NHL history?
Yes, he is.

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2012, 12:46 PM
  #50
jack mullet
@jackmullethockey
 
jack mullet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Baxter, MN
Country: United States
Posts: 498
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
There is no such thing. Being a goalie is always the toughest assignment and no matter how good your team is defensively, you will have to be sharp to get anywhere.

A goalie who makes 50 saves a game obviously have a harder time than the goalie who makes 20 but they are doing the same job for their team. There is a much bigger importance in how a goalie performs when the game is on the line and on the quality of shots.

People like to call out names like Brodeur and Osgood in these kinds of discussions and I find it pretty weak. If Detroit or New Jersey won the cup with someone like Corey Hirsch in net then it would be valid but the list of goalies who "failed" on those Detroit teams contains Legace, Joseph and Ranford (and some prospects like Maracle and Hodson).

Surely if Detroit made their goalie look so much better then Joseph would have a Vezina and a cup by now, right?
excellent points. i hate that myth that a goalie is only good because he played for a certain team. and oddly enough, no one ever mentions Patrick Roy in those talks. look at how many hall of famers he had in front of him every night. Roy never played for a bad team, well, ok he played for one bad team, and what happend? he whined and asked to be traded...to Colorado...a team once again filled with all star talent.

jack mullet is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:03 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.