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Scott Stevens vs Chris Pronger

View Poll Results: Better Player
Scott Stevens 66 38.15%
Chris Pronger 107 61.85%
Voters: 173. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-18-2012, 06:16 AM
  #51
Ivan13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
Love this part of your post. This is a myth that is shared by the vast majority of members on this site, and I don't blame them. The Devils are widely remembered as a team coached by Jacques Lemaire who introduced the trap to the game of hockey. They are noted for their generational goaltender Martin Brodeur, Hall of Fame defenseman Scott Stevens and Scott Niedermayer, as well as longtime defensive defenseman Ken Daneyko. The Devils are almost never noted for their offensive ability or balance offensive attack that greatly assisted in winning their 3 Stanley Cups.

Real great post, keep it up.



Dude Ray Bourque won the Stanley Cup and retired after the turn of the century. He recorded like 5 80pt+ seasons, 3 Norrises and 6 1st Team All Star berths throughout the 90s. Bourque is undoubtedly an 80s and 90s player having played 22 seasons starting in 79-80 and ending in 00-01. Scott Steven's career span follows a similar trajectory beginning in 82-83 and ending in 03-04.

Regardless, all 4 of Bourque, Stevens, Lidstrom and Pronger's careers considerably overlapped -- making them a part of the same generation.

I'm not even going to address your opinion on Lidstrom, his embarrassingly decorated résumé speaks for itself.
No he didn't. The trap was there long before Jaques became a coach in the NHL.

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Old
11-18-2012, 08:16 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
Love this part of your post. This is a myth that is shared by the vast majority of members on this site, and I don't blame them. The Devils are widely remembered as a team coached by Jacques Lemaire who introduced the trap to the game of hockey.
Devils fans know better, but have to contend with this myth all the time.

Lemaire did not invent the trap or even introduce it in the NHL, he merely popularised it in the mid 90s. He learned it from Scotty Bowman, who was running it on those late 70s Habs teams.

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Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
Scott Stevens is 6'2 explain to me how in almost every one of these clips his "tucked" elbow is the main point of contact on almost every one besides the first 2. Or how its just convenient that he has it up after a huge hit in almost all of these once it is clearly visible. I can't ***** and whine about it. He hit well within the rules of the game back then but trying to make him out as a saint and some perfectly clean hitter who never elbows anyone is ridiculous. That's like me trying to tell you Lindros never left his feet on any hits because he was never called for a charging penalty. Dirty is dirty whether it is my team or your team.

Elbowing has always been against the rules. He had four elbowing penalties in his career. Star players do get more leniency for these things, but if all of the entries on his greatest hits highlight reel are elbows, you're telling me there was a 22 year ref conspiracy to never give Stevens elbowing penalties?

Watch that video again. #10 is a hip check, #9 his elbow is up only after contact is made, it is tucked before. #8 is a shoulder to the head, probably illegal today, but the elbow is in. #7 his elbow is in, he isn't leading with it, his shoulder is the first thing to make contact. #6, his elbow never makes contact with the player being hit, he looks like he's pushing the guy down on the follow through. #5 I'll give you, that does actually look like an elbow, because Stevens timed it wrong or Langkow moved where he didn't expect, and he caught him with his elbow instead of the shoulder as he intended. #4 it's pretty clearly tucked in. #3 has been endlessly dissected by Devils fans who consider it the hit that announced the Devils were for real. No elbow. #2 is a shoulder to chest. Slightly late perhaps, but otherwise clean. #1 his elbow comes up on the follow through, but contact is made with the shoulder first. Dan McGillis, a Flyers defenceman who was standing 15 feet away from the hit, has called it absolutely clean.

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Old
11-18-2012, 08:35 AM
  #53
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The only dirty (suspendable) hit by Stevens IMHO was the one on Kariya.

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Old
11-18-2012, 08:53 AM
  #54
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The only dirty (suspendable) hit by Stevens IMHO was the one on Kariya.
That was perfectly clean

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Old
11-18-2012, 09:00 AM
  #55
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Yeah I think a few people here are mistaking Stevens' follow through with his arm (pushing off with his forearm into the guy) as an elbow. Most of those looked clean. A few might be called for principle point of contact being the head, but back then they didn't call those as much as Shanahan does now.

As for the thread, its hard to say, both were great in the playoffs especially, but of course Scotty was on a near-dynasty team while Pronger bounced around (and each team he went to got significantly better when he arrived). I do agree with the people saying that Pronger deserved the Smythe over Neidermeyer, if he wasn't suspended earlier in the playoffs I think it would have been his easily.

Basically, I think it's too close to call, maybe I'll vote later after doing more research.

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11-18-2012, 09:37 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
He also spent the majority of his career in the DPE where you could grab a player from behind and drag him down on a breakaway and still not get a penalty. His elbows were always high he was just never called. I'm not going to get into an arguement about it because 1 I'm obviously biased because I'm a flyers fan, and 2 nothing you say can convince me that while watching a top 10 video of Stevens hits the majority of them are not elbows.
I'd love for you to break that down for me. The only well-known Stevens hit I can see as being dirty is the Kariya hit. That might have been .05-1 second late. All of the other hits in his "best hits" videos are shoulder to chest. I don't understand where you see any elbows. Unless there was some conspiracy to allow Stevens to elbow, there is a reason he only received 4 elbowing penalties in his career.

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Old
11-18-2012, 10:15 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
That was perfectly clean
It was extremely late, so no it most certainly wasn't clean.

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Old
11-18-2012, 11:16 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
Scott Stevens is 6'2 explain to me how in almost every one of these clips his "tucked" elbow is the main point of contact on almost every one besides the first 2. Or how its just convenient that he has it up after a huge hit in almost all of these once it is clearly visible. I can't ***** and whine about it. He hit well within the rules of the game back then but trying to make him out as a saint and some perfectly clean hitter who never elbows anyone is ridiculous.
He doesn't lead with his elbow, they come up in the follow through. This is hitting 101 really.

The most physical players of all time crossed the line occasionally (some regularly). It's a requisite of being a physically imposing player, if you never cross the line you can't establish where it is. That is to say, have the refs inform you as to where your line is.

Stevens became one of the best at stepping right up to the line without crossing it and that's what made him such a ***** to play against. The NHL used his hitting highlight reels as a template for what big legal hits are supposed to be, so obviously they feel the same.

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Old
11-18-2012, 06:55 PM
  #59
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stevens made offensive players afraid to come into the offensive zone and if they did, he would make them wish they didnt by giving them a bone crushing hit. stevens all the way

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Old
11-18-2012, 07:01 PM
  #60
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It's pretty staggering that Pronger is winning this poll. I don't really see a legitimate argument for him.

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Old
11-18-2012, 07:04 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by AfroThunder396 View Post
It's pretty staggering that Pronger is winning this poll. I don't really see a legitimate argument for him.
Pronger has a Norris which Stevens does not, Pronger has a Hart which Stevens does not, and Pronger has a higher PPG.

How do you not see a legitimate argument?

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11-18-2012, 08:32 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
Pronger has a Norris which Stevens does not, Pronger has a Hart which Stevens does not, and Pronger has a higher PPG.

How do you not see a legitimate argument?
I don't put much stock into Stevens's lack of a Norris. Stevens played in one of the most competitive era for defensemen ever. Bourque/Coffey/Leetch/MacInnis/Chelios. He was top-10 in Norris voting eleven times, compared to Pronger's seven. The '94 Norris voting between Stevens and Bourque was one of the closest ever.

I certainly wouldn't put Pronger over Brad Park, Slava Fetisov, or Mark Howe just because he has a Norris and they don't.

A Hart Trophy, yeah I'll give Pronger that. But Stevens has a Conn Smythe. So whatever.

Stevens had a higher offensive peak, a higher defensive peak, a better playoff resume (capped off with a Smythe), more post-season All-Star selections (five, Pronger has four), and captained three championship teams.

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Old
11-18-2012, 08:37 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Saugus View Post
Watch that video again. #10 is a hip check, #9 his elbow is up only after contact is made, it is tucked before. #8 is a shoulder to the head, probably illegal today, but the elbow is in. #7 his elbow is in, he isn't leading with it, his shoulder is the first thing to make contact. #6, his elbow never makes contact with the player being hit, he looks like he's pushing the guy down on the follow through. #5 I'll give you, that does actually look like an elbow, because Stevens timed it wrong or Langkow moved where he didn't expect, and he caught him with his elbow instead of the shoulder as he intended. #4 it's pretty clearly tucked in. #3 has been endlessly dissected by Devils fans who consider it the hit that announced the Devils were for real. No elbow. #2 is a shoulder to chest.
TIL Paul Kariya's chest is above his head.

Quote:
Slightly late perhaps, but otherwise clean. #1 his elbow comes up on the follow through, but contact is made with the shoulder first. Dan McGillis, a Flyers defenceman who was standing 15 feet away from the hit, has called it absolutely clean.
The Lindros hit was clean shoulder hit. But a lot of those hits on that video were with the elbow as the primary point of contact. Sometimes it was tucked it, sometimes it was out.

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Originally Posted by Nocashstyle View Post
I'd love for you to break that down for me. The only well-known Stevens hit I can see as being dirty is the Kariya hit. That might have been .05-1 second late. All of the other hits in his "best hits" videos are shoulder to chest. I don't understand where you see any elbows. Unless there was some conspiracy to allow Stevens to elbow, there is a reason he only received 4 elbowing penalties in his career.
On #9 (Adams), he comes in leading with the elbow, and drops it after the hit; it's actually rather noticeable because most of his hits see his arms going UP after contact and not down. On #7, his elbow was up and out noticeably before contact with King. #5 Stevens clearly sticks his elbow out to nab Langkow. #2... it was a late blindside hit where he pasted Kariya; his elbow was tucked but was the primary point of contact against Kariya's head. That hit happens in today's NHL and Stevens is missing a lot of games.

Also noticeable; how many of those hits did Stevens jump into? Most of them.

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Old
11-18-2012, 08:42 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by AfroThunder396 View Post
I don't put much stock into Stevens's lack of a Norris. Stevens played in one of the most competitive era for defensemen ever. Bourque/Coffey/Leetch/MacInnis/Chelios. He was top-10 in Norris voting eleven times, compared to Pronger's seven. The '94 Norris voting between Stevens and Bourque was one of the closest ever.

I certainly wouldn't put Pronger over Brad Park, Slava Fetisov, or Mark Howe just because he has a Norris and they don't.

A Hart Trophy, yeah I'll give Pronger that. But Stevens has a Conn Smythe. So whatever.

Stevens had a higher offensive peak, a higher defensive peak, a better playoff resume (capped off with a Smythe), more post-season All-Star selections (five, Pronger has four), and captained three championship teams.
Stevens having a better playoff resume as an individual is arguable. Pronger has had some amazing playoff runs.

Also, Pronger was comparable defensively to Stevens or at worst only a shade behind during Stevens' defensive peak. And while this was happening, Pronger was also performing offensively at a level that compares well to Stevens' offensive peak. The fact that Pronger did this simultaneously, and for an extended period, shows that he was the better player.

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11-18-2012, 08:51 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by AfroThunder396 View Post
I don't put much stock into Stevens's lack of a Norris. Stevens played in one of the most competitive era for defensemen ever. Bourque/Coffey/Leetch/MacInnis/Chelios. He was top-10 in Norris voting eleven times, compared to Pronger's seven. The '94 Norris voting between Stevens and Bourque was one of the closest ever.

I certainly wouldn't put Pronger over Brad Park, Slava Fetisov, or Mark Howe just because he has a Norris and they don't.

A Hart Trophy, yeah I'll give Pronger that. But Stevens has a Conn Smythe. So whatever.

Stevens had a higher offensive peak, a higher defensive peak, a better playoff resume (capped off with a Smythe), more post-season All-Star selections (five, Pronger has four), and captained three championship teams.
Fair enough. I mean I voted for Stevens too. But there's a legitimate argument.

We're having one right now

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11-18-2012, 11:18 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
The Lindros hit was clean shoulder hit. But a lot of those hits on that video were with the elbow as the primary point of contact. Sometimes it was tucked it, sometimes it was out.

Also noticeable; how many of those hits did Stevens jump into? Most of them.
If his elbow is tucked in, then it is not the principal point of contact, it is his upper arm or shoulder. The rule against elbowing is that you cannot lead with the point of your elbow. It is not possible to have the elbow tucked and also lead with it, that's basic anatomy.

We already discussed how Stevens's follow through on these hits brings his elbow up, that's what is happening in most of those hits.

When contact is made it often causes one or both players' feet to leave the ice. He isn't jumping into the hits, he is exploding upward into them while keeping his skates on the ice until contact, and after contact, the resulting momentum change lifts his skates off the ice.

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11-19-2012, 10:53 AM
  #67
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Chris Pronger

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11-19-2012, 11:07 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Stevens having a better playoff resume as an individual is arguable. Pronger has had some amazing playoff runs.

Also, Pronger was comparable defensively to Stevens or at worst only a shade behind during Stevens' defensive peak. And while this was happening, Pronger was also performing offensively at a level that compares well to Stevens' offensive peak. The fact that Pronger did this simultaneously, and for an extended period, shows that he was the better player.
And yet only one of them has a Conn Smythe.

I love how people act like Stevens wasn't capable of being good offensively and good defensively at the same time. You have to remember - the Devils aren't like other teams. They didn't want Stevens running up and down the ice like a maniac. He had his role, and he was expected to perform that role and only that role.

I'm too lazy to look it up now, but I made a previous post about how Stevens's PP time went down dramatically after the '95 cup run. He didn't fall of the face of the Earth or forget how to score points, Jacques Lemaire specifically told him to do other things. Like Yzerman in Detroit.

And it worked out pretty well I'd say, as far as winning cups goes. 3/4 on trips to the SCF. How'd the whole simultaneously thing work out for Pronger? 1/3. Yikes. Maybe he should have played with more structure and discipline like Stevens did.

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11-19-2012, 11:47 AM
  #69
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And it worked out pretty well I'd say, as far as winning cups goes. 3/4 on trips to the SCF. How'd the whole simultaneously thing work out for Pronger? 1/3. Yikes. Maybe he should have played with more structure and discipline like Stevens did.
Or maybe he just didn't have the luxury of playing on loaded teams like Devils had 10 years(except for one year which is obviously the year he won). Replace Stevens with Pronger and the Devils win 5+ Cups.

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11-19-2012, 12:26 PM
  #70
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Pronger

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Old
11-19-2012, 03:03 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
Or maybe he just didn't have the luxury of playing on loaded teams like Devils had 10 years(except for one year which is obviously the year he won). Replace Stevens with Pronger and the Devils win 5+ Cups.
What a bizarre hypothetical. There is no way to test this, no way to prove it.

I am more concerned with what did happen, and the Devils won 3 Cups with Stevens. He is a Hall of Famer, he has his number retired, and he is considered a legendary Devils captain by which all future captains are measured. That is a great legacy to have.

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11-19-2012, 03:57 PM
  #72
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Chris Pronger because of the goals he was able to score.

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11-19-2012, 04:20 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
Or maybe he just didn't have the luxury of playing on loaded teams like Devils had 10 years(except for one year which is obviously the year he won). Replace Stevens with Pronger and the Devils win 5+ Cups.
Yes and no.

If you trade Stevens for Pronger in summer 1993, and assume Pronger develops exactly as he did and that the Shanahan trade goes through for Stevens instead of Pronger, it's unlikely the results would be much different. More Cups is possible, but fewer is also possible. Pronger certainly wasn't near Stevens' level in 1995, when the first Cup was won. Make the switch then and Detroit wins the Cup over NJ or anyone else. Pronger didn't reach Stevens' level until 1996 or 1997. The Devils weren't going to beat the 96 Avs or the 97/98 Wings. Dallas in 99 maybe, but they would have had to make the finals (as they did the next year and won the Cup). 2001 and 2002, NJ likely wouldn't have had a chance. That gets us to 2003 and another NJ Cup. That's 2, possibly three with Pronger. Pronger and Niedermayer are both in their primes, so NJ is completely dominating at this point. Rafalski may or may not even be on the team. Whether any more are won by the team during the past nine seasons is debatable; but one of Pronger/Niedermayer is likely gone after the 2004-05 lockout and with Rafalski likely having signed elsewhere because NJ didn't need a puck mover, NJ is stuck fairly short on offensively capable defensemen.

So the only difference between Pronger and Stevens in NJ that I see is this: Dallas loses to NJ in 99, and Detroit beats a different Eastern team (Quebec?) in 95. -1 Cup Dallas, +1 Cup Detroit. NJ stays even.

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11-19-2012, 04:32 PM
  #74
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Stevens was the better leader, more dominant in the playoffs, and has more cups to show for it.

Stevens.

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11-19-2012, 05:59 PM
  #75
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Very close but went with Pronger. And as a Blues fan,

Stevens from Washington = 5 first round picks.....deferred.
Blues sign Shanahan from New Jersey = 2 first round picks.....none to give, still owe Caps.
Stevens awarded as compensation by arbiter to New Jersey.....cups
Shanahan traded to Harford for Pronger
Shanahan asks for trade to Detroit....cups
Pronger traded to Edmonton for Woywitka, Lynch, and....wait for it...Brewer. Cup finals (eventual cup).

throws up repeatedly.

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