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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part VII: The Last Waltz "Cut the sheet & drop the puck!"

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Old
11-17-2012, 04:45 PM
  #101
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Full daly quote on tsn


"Nothing was ever said or even suggested that we needed the details of our proposal "down to the comma. We told them the issues we wanted addressed in the system. We told them we have provided a proposal that we think will effectively address those issues. But we told them that we are open to discussing other ways to address those issues if they want to propose any. In fact, we used the exact example of "if we need 5 and we have proposed 3+2 to get there, that we are happy to listening to and considering 4+1 instead. I'm not sure why they chose to characterize the way they did. As I've said before. I can only control what we say."

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11-17-2012, 05:29 PM
  #102
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Well what is zero? 50% or 57%? The problem between the two sides is the nhl feels relenting off of their initial offer is a concession. The players feel like they are losing regardless, the question is how much. 5 to Daly may be 8 to a player.

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11-18-2012, 12:10 AM
  #103
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Keep the owners and players out of it.

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Old
11-18-2012, 06:15 AM
  #104
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Larry Brooks is reporting the PA presented the players with the option of decertification of the union. The players don't want any part of that right now.

Its a Bettman and Jacobs production.

Quote:
The players were told opting for decertification would not merely represent a legal technicality, it would in fact mean the players would no longer be negotiating as a unified group; indeed, decertification would mean the union would be disbanded.

There was little appetite to adopt that route, though talk of decertification — which presumably would be followed by filing of antitrust action in the U.S and filings in Canada, where labor laws differ throughout the provinces — will inevitably become louder and a more acceptable option for the players if the league continues to stonewall through next month.
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_...E93owdlNyiostL

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11-18-2012, 06:19 AM
  #105
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The Penguins have been regarded as moderates throughout the dispute, and co-owners Mario Lemieux and Ron Burkle never have seemed to be particularly close with Snider.

Although the Penguins would not comment on the Daily News story, a person with ties to ownership said that, while it seems unlikely that Lemieux and Burkle would team with Snider in the way the story suggested, it can't be ruled out because the Penguins hope to salvage as many games as possible from the 2012-13 season.
Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/...#ixzz2CZm0WlF1

The Rangers are in that camp. Jim Dolan is the ringleader of the "I want us to play hockey" group.

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11-18-2012, 08:06 AM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/...#ixzz2CZm0WlF1

The Rangers are in that camp. Jim Dolan is the ringleader of the "I want us to play hockey" group.
Would be nice if starting a new league with owners who wanted to play hockey was a possibility. There is too much fat being carried around in the NHL.

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Old
11-18-2012, 09:30 AM
  #107
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'I'm going to leave you with one thing,I've got a good feeling about tomorrow"(NHL and nhlpa meeting)Ben Crenshaw Ryder cup
https://twitter.com/MSavvy91/status/270176119553134594

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11-18-2012, 09:33 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/...#ixzz2CZm0WlF1

The Rangers are in that camp. Jim Dolan is the ringleader of the "I want us to play hockey" group.
Would love to see a list of owners backing the lockout.

Also, would love to see a list of players still backing the lockout.

My guess around 2/3 of each group want to play?

The article? I fully believe there is some truth. The problem, is does Snider really for settling at this moment? However, I'm not sure articles like this lead to a quicker settlement? Give hope to either side and it gives them reason to hold out longer.

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11-18-2012, 10:06 AM
  #109
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Would love to see a list of owners backing the lockout.

Also, would love to see a list of players still backing the lockout.

My guess around 2/3 of each group want to play?

The article? I fully believe there is some truth. The problem: Is Snider really for settling at this moment? I'm not sure that articles like this lead to a quicker settlement? Give hope to either side and it gives them reason to hold out longer.

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Old
11-18-2012, 10:16 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by ltrangerfan View Post
Would love to see a list of owners backing the lockout.

Also, would love to see a list of players still backing the lockout.

My guess around 2/3 of each group want to play?

The article? I fully believe there is some truth. The problem, is does Snider really for settling at this moment? However, I'm not sure articles like this lead to a quicker settlement? Give hope to either side and it gives them reason to hold out longer.
The original article

Quote:
Behind the scenes, there seems to be a seismic shift going on among the NHL's Board of Governors, also known as the group that Bettman answers to collectively.

And Flyers chairman Ed Snider may be the big mover-and-shaker behind it all.

Multiple sources confirmed to the Daily News on Friday that Snider, once seen as a supporter of the Bettman's push to rein in the players' share of revenue, has soured on the process after it became apparent that a deal would not be brokered in time for a Dec. 1 puck drop.

Put simply: Snider and the rest of the NHL's owners were promised a big win by Bettman, with player concessions on revenue division and contracting rights. The best they'll get now is a small win in revenue split - coupled with a demoralized fan base and all-important corporate sponsors that are ready to quit.

A source familiar with Snider's thinking characterized it as: "If this is the deal we are going to get, what's the point of dragging this out?"
http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/...HL_talks_.html

The NHL can still play a 60 game season. David Stern and the NBA owners were bright enough to realize they were not going to squeeze anymore concessions out of the players. They got a deal done on Black Friday night. They had a good season and revenues are expected to increase to five billion this season. It was $4.2M last season. There is no perfect CBA. Some teams won't like it. Some teams will like it. Some players will like it. Some players won't like it.

COMPROMISE



How many times do you hear "compromise" in the press conference announcing the new CBA? Greater job of the game. At the end,Stern and Peter Holt(main NBA owner on negotiating committee)"We want to play basketball". Bettman and Jacobs want to lockout the players until the PA capitulates.

Snider issued a statement on that article

Quote:
"An article appearing in today's Philadelphia Daily News is absolutely erroneous,” Snider said. “I am a solid supporter of National Hockey League Commissioner Gary Bettman and the League in this unfortunate situation.

“Like all fans, players, owners and League officials, I am extremely hopeful that an agreement can be reached and we can eventually be playing hockey again soon. League rules prevent me and all owners from making any comments on the labor negotiations. I will continue to honor that and not make any further comments."
http://flyers.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=645860

All Snider said was he supports Bettman but he didn't say what was in story was wrong. Snider didn't say anything about Jacobs. The story never said Snider lost confidence in Bettman.

Make a deal. COMPROMISE.

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11-18-2012, 10:39 AM
  #111
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Heard from a bird today that the sponsors and NBC are now really putting pressure on owners/players to reach a deal ASAP. This is from a very reliable source within an original 6 organization, not NYR...

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Old
11-18-2012, 11:02 AM
  #112
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Quote:
The reason why I say this is that by shutting things down for two weeks, the league is putting an awful lot into jeopardy. According to a source with a good knowledge of the NHL’s business workings, the league has a deal with its major sponsors that will pay it 100 percent of its money if the league plays a schedule of 61 or more games. If the schedule dips below 61 games, the league will receive only 75 percent of its sponsorship money. That percentage continues to decrease down to 50 percent if the league only plays a 41-game schedule.

So by pushing things back by two weeks, Bettman is putting millions of dollars of sponsorship money into jeopardy. Through Friday night, the league had already missed a total of 244 games, which works out to an average of about 16 games per team. That takes the schedule down to 66 games. Now, the league would jam a lot more games into whatever time remained and most teams would be playing three games in four nights on a fairly regular basis, so there’s still time to get it done.

But it pushes everything back. If Bettman’s two-week hiatus is observed, both sides would get back to the bargaining table by Dec. 1. Based on Steve Fehr’s assertion that the two sides could reach a deal in a couple of days “once the time is right” – which begs the question, wouldn’t now be a pretty good time? – let’s say it takes a week to get a deal. That takes us to Dec. 8 and a 10-day training camp takes us to Dec. 18. According to this year’s schedule, that takes us to Game No. 449, or about 30 games lost per team
.
http://www.thehockeynews.com/article...ing-break.html

They didn't shut things down for two weeks. 61 games or more and the NHL receives every dollar of sponsorship $.

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Old
11-18-2012, 02:27 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by BBKers View Post
Heard from a bird today that the sponsors and NBC are now really putting pressure on owners/players to reach a deal ASAP. This is from a very reliable source within an original 6 organization, not NYR...
I can tell you that isn't the case nor does it affect anything if it were.

NBC has the most weight to making that sort of impact but while there's football, they have been allocating many of their ad sales to MLS, NFL programming.. higher valued inventory. I'm sure that is keeping their partners happy.

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11-18-2012, 02:30 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Snider issued a statement on that article

http://flyers.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=645860

All Snider said was he supports Bettman but he didn't say what was in story was wrong. Snider didn't say anything about Jacobs. The story never said Snider lost confidence in Bettman.

Make a deal. COMPROMISE.
He said the story was "absolutely erroneous" as you quoted. Do you mean the points in the story weren't incorrect?

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11-18-2012, 02:33 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by BBKers View Post
Heard from a bird today that the sponsors and NBC are now really putting pressure on owners/players to reach a deal ASAP. This is from a very reliable source within an original 6 organization, not NYR...
NBC is better off if they miss the entire season.

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11-18-2012, 02:58 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by in the hall View Post
I can tell you that isn't the case nor does it affect anything if it were.
NBC has the most weight to making that sort of impact but while there's football, they have been allocating many of their ad sales to MLS, NFL programming.. higher valued inventory. I'm sure that is keeping their partners happy.
Step into the light Mr Bettman

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaneone View Post
NBC is better off if they miss the entire season.
Soon they will be at least. Totally correct. But there are a lot more sponsors + other retail business + Canadian/European TV involved here too. CBC is now running old reruns of whatever on their primetime slots...Lots of people have invested lots into a league that is only generating negative value right now. NNBC is a big player - but certainly not the only one.

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Old
11-18-2012, 03:32 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by BBKers View Post
Step into the light Mr Bettman.
Touche - check your inbox

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11-18-2012, 03:35 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by turcotte8 View Post
Good read on how teams that claim they are losing money are actually making profit.

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/201...at-lose-money/

"Last year, Forbes estimated that the Panthers lost $7 million. Over the last nine seasons, they calculate the Panthers total losses at $68 million, an average deficit of $7.5 million per season."

Interestingly, the picture that Forbes paints is at odds with that presented by Broward County. Broward County was primarily responsible for the construction of the Panthers’ arena, and as a result gets to look at the books of the organization. According to the county auditor, the organization made $117.4 million in profit between 1998 and 2012.


"because hockey-related revenue is defined in such a way as to show losses: owners have generous deduction allowances – in some cases, as with television broadcasts, the owners can deduct up to 100 percent of revenues as a “direct cost” – and certain forms of revenue (including many of the government subsidies teams receive) are not included in the calculation.

The bottom line is that the Panthers’ current ownership did not get into hockey to lose money, and according to the county auditor they haven’t lost money. Florida, commonly presented as one of the league’s have-not teams, and an example of the dangers of over-expansion, is nothing of the sort: it’s a healthy business, carefully presented to appear like a money-losing operation.

"Unfortunately, it is impossible to know what the situation is in other NHL cities. NHL teams are private companies, and have no obligation to divulge their financial data. But the fact that the Panthers are seen as one of the poorest clubs in the league suggests that the vast majority of NHL teams are doing just fine."
Going back to this post about the Florida Panthers raking in revenues, think this edit in that story needs to be pointed out.. see quote I pasted under

Essentially the revenues could be a biproduct of all the other events and properties under that umbrella, so the article really isn't an accurate representation of how much money is being made or lost by the Panthers. Revenues from say a concert are going to be big versus revenues over a game - think of the costs in operating a team, like travel, hotels, etc those aren't incurred when you open your doors up and have a band playing.


Quote:
Update

As Erin Bolen points out at SBNation, the audit by Broward County is limited to financial date for the Arena Operating Company, the division of Sunrise Sports & Entertainment.

This doesn’t shift the two basic points of this piece highlighted in bold. The AOC is incredibly profitable, and SSE only gets to run it because of the Panthers, so the Panthers still serve as a gateway. Additionally, a 90% drop in total AOC profitability in a lockout year remains highly interesting when the number of hockey events should only represent roughly one-third of their total revenue.

However, with that said the above piece at times confuses the financial data for the arena operating company with the financial data for Sunrise Sports and Entertainment, due to my misreading portions of the audit. That’s an important distinction to make, and one that I failed to make in my reading of the audit.

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11-18-2012, 04:13 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by in the hall View Post
Going back to this post about the Florida Panthers raking in revenues, think this edit in that story needs to be pointed out.. see quote I pasted under

Essentially the revenues could be a biproduct of all the other events and properties under that umbrella, so the article really isn't an accurate representation of how much money is being made or lost by the Panthers. Revenues from say a concert are going to be big versus revenues over a game - think of the costs in operating a team, like travel, hotels, etc those aren't incurred when you open your doors up and have a band playing.
Sure seems like this "journalist" was so quick to nail Panther ownership to the wall, that the main piece of evidence proved to be totally and laughably incorrect.

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11-18-2012, 04:25 PM
  #120
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Sure seems like this "journalist" was so quick to nail Panther ownership to the wall, that the main piece of evidence proved to be totally and laughably incorrect.
We're reading stories from "journalists" who are being fed info as part of a propaganda campaign. We see it in the Snider story, the Panther's profits, the NBC pressure, etc. Maybe all have some truth ? Maybe some? Both sides do it.

What does double and triple checking facts have to do with journalism?

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11-18-2012, 06:55 PM
  #121
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I have a feeling a deal may be coming soon after the news about the sponsorship money came out. At the very least, both sides will now be feeling more pressure to get back to the table.

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11-18-2012, 08:00 PM
  #122
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I don't get this quote that Savard posted from a golfer...any insights anybody as why his opinion would matter?

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Old
11-19-2012, 12:20 AM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McSauer View Post
I don't get this quote that Savard posted from a golfer...any insights anybody as why his opinion would matter?
Hysterical reference to the 1999 Ryder Cup when USA was down 4 points headed into Sunday and came back to win.

The night before, USA Captain Ben Crenshaw said

"I'm going to leave you with one thing,I've got a good feeling about tomorrow."

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11-19-2012, 12:41 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
Hysterical reference to the 1999 Ryder Cup when USA was down 4 points headed into Sunday and came back to win.

The night before, USA Captain Ben Crenshaw said

"I'm going to leave you with one thing,I've got a good feeling about tomorrow."
ˇMuchas Gracias!

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11-19-2012, 03:41 AM
  #125
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I don't get this quote that Savard posted from a golfer...any insights anybody as why his opinion would matter?
sounds like he's just trying to be optimistic about the whole thing

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