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Old
11-18-2012, 12:54 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Kingstonian84 View Post
Three key reasons why FA's wont come here

1) Too intense of a hockey market, its like living in hollywood for these players, their every move gets scrutinized 24/7.

2) Burke doesn't like to dish out more then 5 year long contracts, players these days want 7-12 years. I don't agree with these types of contracts BUT if that's whats blocking players from signing here then Burke really needs to get over his fat ego.

3) MLSE for a very long time has not shown a serious commitment to winning, sorry but its the truth. Players want to know the team they're playing for WILL be a winning one, no player wants to come sign on and waste years of their lives playing for a bottom feeding team.

Issue #1 will never change, so its time to just except it. Issue #2 will only change once Burke is canned and/or the new CBA re-aligns its player contracts. Issue #3 is slowly being fixed but we're still several years away from being a good team.
Thats funny, we used to be able to sign free agents, Cujo, Gary Roberts, Mogilny etc etc. Maybe the phase the team is in and individual needs of the recent top free agents has more to do with it ?

No commitment to winning ? So we spend more money on our scouting, medical team, farm team and front office because we want to lose ?

The contract term issue appears to be on the radar of the the league in this round of negotiations.

Pretty flimsy stuff dude.


Last edited by Mess: 11-18-2012 at 09:15 AM.
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11-18-2012, 01:10 AM
  #77
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The problem is if there was a season the Leafs wouldn't have a chance of ending up with the 25th overall pick or the 30th.

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11-18-2012, 02:08 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by BlueBaron View Post
Thats funny, we used to be able to sign free agents, Cujo, Gary Roberts, Mogilny etc etc. Maybe the phase the team is in and individual needs of the recent top free agents has more to do with it ?

No commitment to winning ? So we spend more money on our scouting, medical team, farm team and front office because we want to lose ?

The contract term issue appears to be on the radar of the the league in this round of negotiations.

Pretty flimsy stuff dude.
Your right about Cujo he was an elite signing, I forgot about him there for a minute. Mogilny wasn't an "elite" or big name signing, yea he was a "good" player but he was well past his prime when he arrived here so no I'm not including him.

Well the result says it all, we're the ONLY NHL team to not make the playoffs since the last lockout, so yes it boils down to a lack of committment on winning. I also said it IS slowly improving though, our farm team is restocking and we've gone from one of the oldest to youngest teams in the NHL but still that doesn't mean the will to win is 100% there yet and there is a lot of ground to make up.

Yup I know it is, who knows how it will turn out though. I'm NOT a big fan of these retirment 10-15 year monster contracts but it is what it is and IF these contracts are legal in the new CBA then Burke needs to suck it up and get over it.

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11-18-2012, 09:05 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
I feel that is a better chance than if they play. Hell, they were a playoff team last year for as long as they could have a season this year.
Its this. If we play, we won't be in the top 10.

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11-18-2012, 09:05 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDion03 View Post
The problem is if there was a season the Leafs wouldn't have a chance of ending up with the 25th overall pick or the 30th.
That's right

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11-18-2012, 09:09 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Kingstonian84 View Post
Three key reasons why FA's wont come here

1) Too intense of a hockey market, its like living in hollywood for these players, their every move gets scrutinzed 24/7.

2) Burke doesn't like to dish out more then 5 year long contracts, players these days want 7-12 years. I don't agree with these types of contracts BUT if that's whats ************ players from signing here then Burke really needs to get over his fat ego.

3) MLSE for a very long time has not shown a serious committment to winning, sorry but its the truth. Players want to know the team they're playing for WILL be a winning one, no player wants to come sign on and waste years of their lives playing for a bottom feeding team.

Issue #1 will never change, so its time to just except it. Issue #2 will only change once Burke is canned and/or the new CBA re-aligns its player contracts. Issue #3 is slowly being fixed but we're still several years away from being a good team.
You forgot #4: the Leafs aren't even trying to sign UFA's. How can they come here if they don't get an offer?

Of course they'll strongly consider if the money is there.

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11-18-2012, 09:10 AM
  #82
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That's right
We can easily sprint, we just can't run the marathon yet. I too fear that playing a shortened season increases the likelihood of not having a low pick.

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11-18-2012, 10:16 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
We can easily sprint, we just can't run the marathon yet. I too fear that playing a shortened season increases the likelihood of not having a low pick.
I can't believe that you're serious. I'd rather make the playoffs 10 times out of 10 than pick high in the draft. It's just unbelievable the attitude here. People are just content with finishing low and picking high in the draft. Unbelievable. God forbid the Leafs make the playoffs and generate some excitement for the city. What a travesty that would be, eh?

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11-18-2012, 10:52 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Suntouchable13 View Post
I can't believe that you're serious. I'd rather make the playoffs 10 times out of 10 than pick high in the draft. It's just unbelievable the attitude here. People are just content with finishing low and picking high in the draft. Unbelievable. God forbid the Leafs make the playoffs and generate some excitement for the city. What a travesty that would be, eh?
But are you being realistic?

Reality suggests that at this time the Leafs are not a very good team. If you took the last 4 seasons and combined points (wins) etc you would see only Edmonton, NYI & Columbus have produced less.



Our Leafs and Columbus are separated by a mere 3 points over the course of the past 4 seasons combined. Some fans must see their own Leafs team other than the actual results show it really is, and the stats don't lie. We're (at this point) essentially the Canadian version of the Columbus Blue Jackets equivalent in competitiveness at present.

So we're not talking about a cup competitive team here, that fans want to deconstruct to gain high draft picks at the expense of success. This is a bottom 10 NHL team that fans simply want them to build up future assets through the draft process like more Morgan Rielly types now, while the team is in a down cycle in order to be cup competitive in the future.

Short-term pain for long-term gain, where mediocrity of being neither gains this team nothing.. While on principle fans might be desiring success instead of failure that can't simply be accomplished by desire and a bad team does not become a good team overnight, unless it has the talent on its team to compete with the best.

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11-18-2012, 10:57 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Suntouchable13 View Post
I can't believe that you're serious. I'd rather make the playoffs 10 times out of 10 than pick high in the draft. It's just unbelievable the attitude here. People are just content with finishing low and picking high in the draft. Unbelievable. God forbid the Leafs make the playoffs and generate some excitement for the city. What a travesty that would be, eh?
At what point in time did I say which I'd rather? I'm merely pointing out which of the two options provides better odds in terms of pick placement (IMO). Nowhere in there did I say that which you did.

It never ceases to amaze me around here how people hold people responsible not for what the person they quoted said but rather what they themselves have said.

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11-18-2012, 11:18 AM
  #86
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This can be said of any team though and by most accounts there are 20 or so teams with better prospect pools than the Leafs. A top pick is a must if they are looking for long term solutions.
No argument here.

Fans often look at their own team in a bubble and compare its progress unto itself. Where big picture all teams are simultaneously building teams and benefiting unilaterally through the draft or development of its youth for the future.

So at the end of the day its going to come down to actual talent level of teams that determines its success.

Players like Kadri and Colborne expected to be Leafs future as their top prospects are gaining development time presently.. However big picture its not only about making the current Leafs team better by replacing players on the current roster, but making bigger impacts than all other teams in comparison to what they also possess and are in similar situations where these prospects are being counted on and similar benefiting by the current situation.

If the Leafs want be begin passing teams in the standings they need to be better than those teams, and not just better than themselves of old/past.

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11-18-2012, 11:35 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
You forgot #4: the Leafs aren't even trying to sign UFA's. How can they come here if they don't get an offer?

Of course they'll strongly consider if the money is there.
How do you know this?

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11-18-2012, 11:50 AM
  #88
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How do you know this?
We would know if they made offers to top UFA's.

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11-18-2012, 12:25 PM
  #89
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We do know they made an offer to Brad Richards, and that they had flown to Sweden to make offers to the Sedins. Are those big enough for you ?

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11-18-2012, 12:35 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by BlueBaron View Post
We do know they made an offer to Brad Richards, and that they had flown to Sweden to make offers to the Sedins. Are those big enough for you ?
Meh, few players want to play in Toronto it seems, and to be honest, what player wants to go to a bottom 5 team?

Our biggest mistake was and still is the Kessel deal. This extended off-season isn't even helping the leafs that much.

Sure our specs are getting more time, but it's not like we have that great a core of specs.

Now, if we hadn't traded kessel.

1 of Seguin or Hall (depending on how much worse we are with out Kessel)
Knight
1 of Hamilton, Zibanejad, Scheifele, Strome, Larsson, Huberdeau, Landeskog, RNH (depending on how much worse we are with out Kessel)

And thats not even considering, that if we had gone into a steady rebuild, players like Grabo/Kulie/MacA could of been moved for more picks.

A future D core of...

Rielly, Hamilton, Gardiner, Finn, Blacker, Percy, Holzer, Gunnarsson

Thats something to get excited about...

Rielly - Hamilton
Gardiner - Finn
Blacker - Percy/Holzer/Gunnar

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11-18-2012, 12:39 PM
  #91
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Excellent post.

Even Schenn (who some people think was rushed) was already playing on the team for over a month and a half and playing well before Burke joined the organization.

The Leafs are one of the teams positioned to loss the most value to free agency for nothing after this season. Cox's article assume Lupul will just reink but what if he doesn't and we loss him for nothing instead of gaining assets in a trade. Lupul would surely bring at least a late 1st rounder in return at the deadline.

Losing Connolly, Bozak, Lombardi, Steckel and CMac all for nothing could really set this franchise back in terms of organizational assets. It appears that Burke planned on trading most of these players this season as our prospects worked their way into the lineup. Everybody trashes a guy like Connolly but he'd most likely bring a 2nd rounder at the deadline. Same with CMac. Same with Bozak. Lombardi could also potentially bring a 2nd if he got his career back on track this season. That is a lot of extra picks to add to the organization.

This notion has come up here before, and makes absolutely no logical sense. If those players left for UFA, it is likely those positions would be filled with UFA, or propsects that will save the team cap space. To expect to trade every UFA before leaving the team, and getting something back is unrealisitc. Players leave for UFA, and the come over from UFA.

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11-18-2012, 12:49 PM
  #92
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Some might say he had the vision that there would be CBA troubles this year hence all the expiring contracts at the end of this year.
http://www.capgeek.com/free-agents/?...1&fa_type_id=2

Seems like a lot of expiring contracts.

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11-18-2012, 12:56 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by hero View Post
Meh, few players want to play in Toronto it seems, and to be honest, what player wants to go to a bottom 5 team?

Our biggest mistake was and still is the Kessel deal. This extended off-season isn't even helping the leafs that much.

Sure our specs are getting more time, but it's not like we have that great a core of specs.

Now, if we hadn't traded kessel.

1 of Seguin or Hall (depending on how much worse we are with out Kessel)
Knight
1 of Hamilton, Zibanejad, Scheifele, Strome, Larsson, Huberdeau, Landeskog, RNH (depending on how much worse we are with out Kessel)

And thats not even considering, that if we had gone into a steady rebuild, players like Grabo/Kulie/MacA could of been moved for more picks.

A future D core of...

Rielly, Hamilton, Gardiner, Finn, Blacker, Percy, Holzer, Gunnarsson

Thats something to get excited about...

Rielly - Hamilton
Gardiner - Finn
Blacker - Percy/Holzer/Gunnar
Since Kessel is currently better than Hall or Seguin and may very well always be you are basically complaining we don't have Hamilton, which is really not the end of the world. Sure he would be nice but he has not proven anything yet at the NHL so moaning when he may or may not be an NHLer seems kind of sad.

Sure for positional reasons Seguin might be more appealing but this is just 20/20 hind sight . You guys really need to get over the Kessel trade, Kessel has been just fine . If Hamilton does not prove to be a top pairing D all of this complaining is going to seem very petty, actually it pretty much does already, Oh no we missed out on a defensemen who we have no idea how good he will be !

We may not have even drafted Hamilton so it's a silly argument. Add to that you have no idea how Seguin would have developed in our market without the cover of Bostons depth and the increased pressure and scrutiny that would have come with being a saviour. One thing we do know for sure is Kessel can handle it.

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Old
11-18-2012, 01:15 PM
  #94
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This notion has come up here before, and makes absolutely no logical sense. If those players left for UFA, it is likely those positions would be filled with UFA, or propsects that will save the team cap space. To expect to trade every UFA before leaving the team, and getting something back is unrealisitc. Players leave for UFA, and the come over from UFA.
When you start out with so few assets, you cannot afford to waste them by letting them leave as UFAs. Heck, he wouldn't even let Lebda walk as a UFA, without getting something back for him. Given Burke's track record with UFAs since arriving, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect MOST of the pending UFAs to be flipped for other assets before July 1st.

We're talking about the potential of 6 UFAs leaving without compensation in one season. Can you name 6 UFAs (full-time players) who Burke let walk as UFAs during his 4 years in TO? Preferrably players who teams around the league picked up after we let him go, not scrubs like Sjostrom who's playing God knows where.

Brent getting picked up by the Canes would be one, I'm really straining for others, though. Conversely, I could easily name 6 pending UFAs who got us something else in return over the past 4 seasons.

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11-18-2012, 01:27 PM
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When you start out with so few assets, you cannot afford to waste them by letting them leave as UFAs. Heck, he wouldn't even let Lebda walk as a UFA, without getting something back for him. Given Burke's track record with UFAs since arriving, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect MOST of the pending UFAs to be flipped for other assets before July 1st.

We're talking about the potential of 6 UFAs leaving without compensation in one season. Can you name 6 UFAs (full-time players) who Burke let walk as UFAs during his 4 years in TO? Preferrably players who teams around the league picked up after we let him go, not scrubs like Sjostrom who's playing God knows where.

Brent getting picked up by the Canes would be one, I'm really straining for others, though. Conversely, I could easily name 6 pending UFAs who got us something else in return over the past 4 seasons.
I cant tell if youre being serious. If by some remote chance you are, ask yourself how come not every upcoming UFA is traded for a pick or prospect. You do realize that every team has the chance to sign a UFA player? There are many GM's that dont trade their upcoming UFA's, and lose them for "nothing". Does that mean they are all doing a bad job? If there is no season, there will be other teams that will lose several UFA's, what makes you think the Leafs are the only one. I'm sure Burke will lose some players to UFA, but he will also sign some as well, likely promote the youngsters. No reason for you chicken little attempt; this is what happens in hockey, to all teams.

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11-18-2012, 01:30 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Kingstonian84 View Post
1) Too intense of a hockey market, its like living in hollywood for these players, their every move gets scrutinzed 24/7.
Does this theory of yours only apply to hockey, or to all athletes, in general? It clearly doesn't apply to actors, since Hollywood is a pretty popular place. Man, hockey players are such wimps with fragile egos.

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Originally Posted by Kingstonian84 View Post
2) Burke doesn't like to dish out more then 5 year long contracts, players these days want 7-12 years. I don't agree with these types of contracts BUT if that's whats ************ players from signing here then Burke really needs to get over his fat ego.
And those players wanting 7-12 year contracts is one of the reasons they're getting locked out. Do you seriously think it's Burke ego that's preventing him to offer such contracts?

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Originally Posted by Kingstonian84 View Post
3) MLSE for a very long time has not shown a serious committment to winning, sorry but its the truth. Players want to know the team they're playing for WILL be a winning one, no player wants to come sign on and waste years of their lives playing for a bottom feeding team.
Not deciding ahead of time to throw in the towel on 3-4 consecutive seasons shows more commitment to winning than the route the Oilers chose to take.

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Originally Posted by Kingstonian84 View Post
Issue #1 will never change, so its time to just except it. Issue #2 will only change once Burke is canned and/or the new CBA re-aligns its player contracts. Issue #3 is slowly being fixed but we're still several years away from being a good team.
Issue #1 is fictitious, with absolutely no proof.

Issue #2 is a popular folk-lore among the Burke-detractors. Most rational people realize that Burke had a very strong suspicion that the new CBA would fix most of the loop holes present in the previous CBA, and teams knowingly exploiting it could very well be indirectly penalized by the new agreement.

Issue #3... wait... Even you can see the light at the end of the tunnel? It's about time. Most of us never expected to be contenders in 4 seasons.

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11-18-2012, 01:34 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
I cant tell if youre being serious. If by some remote chance you are, ask yourself how come not every upcoming UFA is traded for a pick or prospect. You do realize that every team has the chance to sign a UFA player? There are many GM's that dont trade their upcoming UFA's, and lose them for "nothing". Does that mean they are all doing a bad job? If there is no season, there will be other teams that will lose several UFA's, what makes you think the Leafs are the only one. I'm sure Burke will lose some players to UFA, but he will also sign some as well, likely promote the youngsters. No reason for you chicken little attempt; this is what happens in hockey, to all teams.
Why are you trying to deflect the conversation to other teams and GMs? We're talking specifically about how Burke handles his UFAs, and that there's a very good chance that Burke will not let a UFA walk without getting something in return for him.

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11-18-2012, 02:01 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Kingstonian84 View Post
Three key reasons why FA's wont come here

1) Too intense of a hockey market, its like living in hollywood for these players, their every move gets scrutinized 24/7.

2) Burke doesn't like to dish out more then 5 year long contracts, players these days want 7-12 years. I don't agree with these types of contracts BUT if that's whats blocking players from signing here then Burke really needs to get over his fat ego.

3) MLSE for a very long time has not shown a serious commitment to winning, sorry but its the truth. Players want to know the team they're playing for WILL be a winning one, no player wants to come sign on and waste years of their lives playing for a bottom feeding team.

Issue #1 will never change, so its time to just except it. Issue #2 will only change once Burke is canned and/or the new CBA re-aligns its player contracts. Issue #3 is slowly being fixed but we're still several years away from being a good team.
Please! If we stepped up like Minnesota did for Parise/Suter, Perry and Getzlaf will sign with us. They'll go wherever they get the term and dollars they want.

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11-18-2012, 02:34 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
http://www.capgeek.com/free-agents/?...1&fa_type_id=2

Seems like a lot of expiring contracts.
Probably also one of the reasons Burke had contracts expiring here. I'm sure he's aware of potential available players in July of 2013, has lots of dollars freeing up and no long term deals that are handcuffing him.

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11-18-2012, 02:37 PM
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Probably also one of the reasons Burke had contracts expiring here. I'm sure he's aware of potential available players in July of 2013, has lots of dollars freeing up and no long term deals that are handcuffing him.
On that note, we gotta keep praying that Luongo's contract stays very far away from Toronto.

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