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Prospect Thread - Part XII

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Old
11-18-2012, 05:04 PM
  #151
Taelin
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TysonGiuriato:
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#Canucks prospect @DavidHonzik allowed six goals in @CBSEHockey 6-2 loss today. After four GP he is now at 1-2-0 with 6.28 GAA and .773 SV%
Well...this is promising...

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Old
11-18-2012, 05:09 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Nuck This View Post
Are any of those guys actually going to make an impact at the nhl level......

Goalies have different trajectories and Honzik at the time was considered a steal of a goalie prospect by goalie guild. He was dominant in his playoff series that year.
But to take him that early based off such a small sample size of good play? I'm not so sure about that... We already had Schneider, Lack and Cannata in the pipeline - don't really think we needed him that badly.

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11-18-2012, 05:20 PM
  #153
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I've never liked the Honzik pick. He was clearly a flash in the pan and we don't have a long term need for goalies.

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11-18-2012, 05:45 PM
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taelin View Post
TysonGiuriato:

Well...this is promising...
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Originally Posted by SDK View Post
I've never liked the Honzik pick. He was clearly a flash in the pan and we don't have a long term need for goalies.
He was barely even a flash. I just don't understand taking goalies in the first 3 rounds personally.

Again here is a list of picks taken in his round after him.

Travis Ewanyk
21GP 4G 5A 9P, but a physical presence on the Oil Kings WHL

Daniel Catenacci
22GP 15G 21A 36P, Owen Sound OHL

Anthony Camara
22GP 16G 14A 30P, Barrie Colts OHL

Nick Shore
10GP 5G 11A 16GP, U of Denver, NCAA (41Pts in 43 games year prior)

Josh Leivo (Corrado teammate)
23GP 12G 11A 23P, Subury, OHL.

Kyle Rau
11P 5G 5A 10P, U of Minnesota, NCAA (43P in 40GP year prior)

Jordan Binnington (Goalie)
18GP 12-3-3, 2.30GAA, .929sv, Owen Sound OHL

Logan Shaw
20GP 9G 16A 25P, Quebec QMJHL.


Now I'm not saying these guys are all going to make the NHL, but at the very least they are showing they have what it takes to produce at the Junior or Collegiate level.

And these are only third round picks. This particular draft had some decent talent available in the later rounds and we missed it as per usual by going the QMJHL route (which we have a very dubious record drafting out of).

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Old
11-18-2012, 05:48 PM
  #155
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We seem to suck drafting anywhere but the OHL.

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Old
11-18-2012, 05:59 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by SDK View Post
We seem to suck drafting anywhere but the OHL.
We are decent with players going to the NCAA.

WHL is atrocious.

QMJHL very very poor.

OHL we've been a little above average, improved with the past picks we've made. Corrado, Jensen, Hodgson, Friesen.

Europe is ok, haven't done much since Edler though.


If we're having success in the OHL, make more picks in the OHL and trust those scouts.

Also, fire the entire WHL staff outright, bring in a whole new staff and pay premiums to get good WHL scouts.

QMJHL needs to get less sway. There is a very long list of failed, crappy prospects who never even amounted to much in the QMJHL. There are lots of talented players coming out of the Q, and we certainly aren't picking them up. This year our QMJHL scouting may be crucial—look at how many talented forwards there are this year. A guy like Erne or Carrier probably fits Gillis' new profile.

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Old
11-18-2012, 06:09 PM
  #157
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QMJHL 2003-2012

MA Bernier
FP Guennette
Julien Ellis
Bourdon (RIP)
Alex Vincent
C-A Messier

Yann Sauve
Steven Anthony
Adam Polasek
Sawyer Hannay
David Honzik
Alex Grenier
Alex Mallet

Italics: Guys who are busts or unlikely to make any impact at NHL level.
Bold: Guys with NHL potential/NHL players.
Others: Mallet is really the only one right now who looks like he could be an NHLer, Grenier is too tough to tell right now, but I didn't really like that pick.

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Old
11-18-2012, 06:15 PM
  #158
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It might be too early to write off Polasek, no? I think he and Mallet are the only ones in the system right now with some potential to make it.

But yeah that's a hell of a long list of failures in the past. A lot of these didn't even come close to becoming established AHL'ers at the very least.

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Old
11-18-2012, 06:24 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by vanuck View Post
It might be too early to write off Polasek, no? I think he and Mallet are the only ones in the system right now with some potential to make it.

But yeah that's a hell of a long list of failures in the past. A lot of these didn't even come close to becoming established AHL'ers at the very least.
Polasek is a definite outside chance, he has an uphill battle starting from the ECHL.

And you are right, none of those picks were even good at the AHL level and most ended up in the ECHL before ending up in the Central Hockey League or some other crap level pro league.

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11-18-2012, 07:34 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by timw33 View Post
Polasek is a definite outside chance, he has an uphill battle starting from the ECHL.

And you are right, none of those picks were even good at the AHL level and most ended up in the ECHL before ending up in the Central Hockey League or some other crap level pro league.
Polasek would likely be in the AHL if there was an NHL season though.

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Old
11-18-2012, 08:25 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by timw33 View Post
QMJHL 2003-2012 picks
For context, I think you have to look at draft position:

MA Bernier - 2003 2nd round, 60th
FP Guennette - 2003 7th round, 222nd
Julien Ellis - 2004 6th round, 189th
Bourdon (RIP) - 2005 1st round, 10th
Alex Vincent - 2005 4th round, 114th
C-A Messier - 2007 5th round, 145th
Yann Sauve - 2008 2nd round, 41st
Steven Anthony - 2009 7th round, 187th
Adam Polasek - 2010 5th round, 145th
Sawyer Hannay - 2010 7th round, 205th
David Honzik - 2011 3rd round, 71st
Alex Grenier - 2011 3rd round, 90th
Alex Mallet - 2012 2nd round, 57th

First three rounds bolded - Bernier and probably Sauve are disappointments, whereas the jury is out on Honzik, Grenier, and Mallet.

S_C

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Old
11-18-2012, 09:17 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by PRNuck View Post
Did anyone get a chance to watch the Wiscconsin game last night?
PVR'd it. Just finished watching it.

Wisconsin is a much weaker team than Minnesota, who are ranked #3 in NCAA.

Labate seems to be used quite a bit at EV strength, started each period.

He didn't PK, and only played the last 20 seconds of a few PP's.

He skates well, looks like he's still got plenty of room to fill out that frame too.

Went head to head with Bjugstad a number of shifts, they even had a bit of a kerfuffel.

Bjugstad scored, hard shot but goalie should have had it. He's a good prospect, uses his size well but doesn't have an edge to his game.

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Old
11-18-2012, 09:25 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by timw33 View Post
QMJHL 2003-2012
You can keep going even farther back than that. The last guy we took out of the Q who managed a multiple-season NHL career was Gino Odjick.

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Old
11-18-2012, 09:47 PM
  #164
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We didn't draft him, but Burrows is a pretty notable player with origins in the Q.

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Old
11-18-2012, 09:57 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Wisp View Post
We didn't draft him, but Burrows is a pretty notable player with origins in the Q.
Yeah, it'd be great if we could unearth a Burrows from the Q every once in awhile, but unfortunately Burrows sort of fell into the Canucks lap.

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Old
11-18-2012, 10:08 PM
  #166
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Yeah, it'd be great if we could unearth a Burrows from the Q every once in awhile, but unfortunately Burrows sort of fell into the Canucks lap.
Had to rely on somebody essentially *outside* the organization to "find" him (eg., Moose GM).

Seems like alot of our amateur scouts are only good for being a "reverse barometer" (eg., ask who they like, and then automaticaly strike them off your list....)

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Old
11-19-2012, 01:38 AM
  #167
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Originally Posted by timw33 View Post
Polasek is a definite outside chance, he has an uphill battle starting from the ECHL.

And you are right, none of those picks were even good at the AHL level and most ended up in the ECHL before ending up in the Central Hockey League or some other crap level pro league.
This is the real tell when you have scouting problems.

No matter who you are, most of your picks - from any round - aren't going to make it as NHL players.

But if your scouts are 'on it', most of your picks should at least be 'near misses'. Guys who got a cup of coffee in the NHL, looked promising for a year or two at lower levels to earn a contract, good AHL/Euro players, and so on. Where at least you can look at the player and go 'Ah, didn't work out, but I see what they were thinking there.'

The number of WHL and QMJHL picks who aren't even close - guys not earning pro contracts or going straight to the ECHL and staying there - is terribly disturbing. Of the 10 players we took from the QMJHL with pick 50 or later from 2003-2011, not a single one even went on to be a serviceable AHL player. That's absolutely revolting.

Doubly so when we're dealing with high-ish picks. Grenier and Honzik were both 3rd-rounders who won't even play a single AHL game for the organization.

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Old
11-19-2012, 02:22 AM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Lard_Lad View Post
You can keep going even farther back than that. The last guy we took out of the Q who managed a multiple-season NHL career was Gino Odjick.
... I don't even know what to say to this. Just laugh, maybe?

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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
PVR'd it. Just finished watching it.

Wisconsin is a much weaker team than Minnesota, who are ranked #3 in NCAA.

Labate seems to be used quite a bit at EV strength, started each period.

He didn't PK, and only played the last 20 seconds of a few PP's.

He skates well, looks like he's still got plenty of room to fill out that frame too.

Went head to head with Bjugstad a number of shifts, they even had a bit of a kerfuffel.

Bjugstad scored, hard shot but goalie should have had it. He's a good prospect, uses his size well but doesn't have an edge to his game.
I remember from one highlight video that feebster put together that he fell down quite a bit - does he look stronger out there? And how's his defensive ability? Offensive instincts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Had to rely on somebody essentially *outside* the organization to "find" him (eg., Moose GM).

Seems like alot of our amateur scouts are only good for being a "reverse barometer" (eg., ask who they like, and then automaticaly strike them off your list....)
Pretty much. My hope is that MG has been keeping a record of who they recommend nonetheless... to see just how much ineptitude there really is. I'm just hoping that's the only reason he hasn't fired anybody yet - to give it time to evaluate their recommendations, even if we never drafted them.


Last edited by vanuck: 11-19-2012 at 02:29 AM.
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Old
11-19-2012, 02:34 AM
  #169
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Not totally sure here but I believe that one of the drafts - Charles Antoine Messier - actually ended up getting cut from his Junior team.

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11-19-2012, 02:38 AM
  #170
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Originally Posted by MS View Post
This is the real tell when you have scouting problems.

No matter who you are, most of your picks - from any round - aren't going to make it as NHL players.

But if your scouts are 'on it', most of your picks should at least be 'near misses'. Guys who got a cup of coffee in the NHL, looked promising for a year or two at lower levels to earn a contract, good AHL/Euro players, and so on. Where at least you can look at the player and go 'Ah, didn't work out, but I see what they were thinking there.'

The number of WHL and QMJHL picks who aren't even close - guys not earning pro contracts or going straight to the ECHL and staying there - is terribly disturbing. Of the 10 players we took from the QMJHL with pick 50 or later from 2003-2011, not a single one even went on to be a serviceable AHL player. That's absolutely revolting.

Doubly so when we're dealing with high-ish picks. Grenier and Honzik were both 3rd-rounders who won't even play a single AHL game for the organization.
What do you think we're doing wrong? As an honest opinion. Do our scouts just suck at evaluating talent, or IQ, or hockey sense? Should Burke and Nonis take any of the blame too? Or is a GM's influence generally limited to just the 1st and 2nd rounds?

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11-19-2012, 03:42 AM
  #171
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Not totally sure here but I believe that one of the drafts - Charles Antoine Messier - actually ended up getting cut from his Junior team.
I think he played the year after his draft, then was cut in his overage year. So many awful, awful drafts. If our team was based somewhere where no one wanted to play we would be so screwed.

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11-19-2012, 05:10 AM
  #172
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I think he played the year after his draft, then was cut in his overage year. So many awful, awful drafts. If our team was based somewhere where no one wanted to play we would be so screwed.
On the positive side, our 1st round pick from that year recently managed to move up from the German 3rd division to the German 2nd division.

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Old
11-19-2012, 09:05 AM
  #173
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
PVR'd it. Just finished watching it.

Wisconsin is a much weaker team than Minnesota, who are ranked #3 in NCAA.

Labate seems to be used quite a bit at EV strength, started each period.

He didn't PK, and only played the last 20 seconds of a few PP's.

He skates well, looks like he's still got plenty of room to fill out that frame too.

Went head to head with Bjugstad a number of shifts, they even had a bit of a kerfuffel.

Bjugstad scored, hard shot but goalie should have had it. He's a good prospect, uses his size well but doesn't have an edge to his game.
Nice, thanks for the recap. I've been trying to keep up to speed on Labate but all Wisconsin sites are just 100% doom and gloom.

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11-19-2012, 09:11 AM
  #174
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
PVR'd it. Just finished watching it.

Wisconsin is a much weaker team than Minnesota, who are ranked #3 in NCAA.

Labate seems to be used quite a bit at EV strength, started each period.

He didn't PK, and only played the last 20 seconds of a few PP's.

He skates well, looks like he's still got plenty of room to fill out that frame too.

Went head to head with Bjugstad a number of shifts, they even had a bit of a kerfuffel.

Bjugstad scored, hard shot but goalie should have had it. He's a good prospect, uses his size well but doesn't have an edge to his game.
I also noted that he still is a boy in a mans body. He hasn't developed man strength to meet his almost 6'5 body. In addition, he seemed to be the first member of his line off the ice (condition?). I would guess he's a 4 year player + 2 years at AHL projection. I do like his down low play and passing ability.

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Old
11-19-2012, 09:13 AM
  #175
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Originally Posted by vanuck View Post
What do you think we're doing wrong? As an honest opinion. Do our scouts just suck at evaluating talent, or IQ, or hockey sense? Should Burke and Nonis take any of the blame too? Or is a GM's influence generally limited to just the 1st and 2nd rounds?
At the very least, at some point the GM has to be held accountable for failing to recognize his scouts' ineptitude. It's still too early to write off MG as being bad at this, but the early returns aren't promising (though miles ahead of the previous regime). IMO he's spending too much time trying to outsmart everyone else, it's like he's using the Canucks as his test subject to try out revolutionary new drafting methods he's always wondered about.

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