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Old
11-18-2012, 08:24 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Russia wasn't that well scouted. obviously.
And while my example isn't exactly true, because Datsyuk wasn't drafted until he was nearly 20... the simple fact of the matter is that fans today are far more informed about prospects than ever.
How many Russian Super League games did you watch in 1999?
Right now, you can fire up the net and watch games live. You can watch hours of highlights on youtube. You can access scouting reports all over the place.
In Datsyuk's first game with Detroit, he showed incredible puck skills. It was clear, right from the beginning, that he had special talent -- far beyond anything I'd read up until that point.


Here's an early scouting report on Datsyuk
http://web.archive.org/web/200106300...s/datsyuk.html
I don't think that Russia is more scouted by professional scouts than in the late 90s. You gotta remember at that time a lot of talent was drafted from Russia. Everyone was looking for next Fedorov, Bure or Mogilnyi. Now, outside of few top prospects, nobody pays that much attention to Russians, because very few teams actually draft them.

Datsyuk in 1998 was who?

20-year old (not THAT young anymore)
Played on one of the worst teams in the league.
Scored 8 points!

I mean... even right now. Not many people talk about such kids. There are always a bunch of 20-year old skilled kids with far better resumes than Datsyuk.

The fact that Andersson saw something in him is simply incredible.

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11-18-2012, 10:35 AM
  #27
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In the INFORMATION AGE, there is no way Datsyuk comes to us as a total mystery man after three years in Russia's top league.

In 1998, there was virtually no information to be found about overseas hockey. The Internet was still young. Even by 2002, the net was nowhere near what it is now.

If Datsyuk was a recent 20 year old draft pick in the KHL, he'd surely have a couple highlight reel goals that would find their way onto Youtube. We'd see his eight points and be underwhelmed, but then we'd notice that 8 points led the team in scoring.
Hmmmmm.

Chad S would be posting every highlight he could find. We'd watch games via streams. And we'd see that this kid, while small and weak, had incredible skill

Sure, there are still secrets in the obscure 2nd and third and 4th tier leagues in Europe. But Datsyuk was playing in the top league and leading his team in scoring.

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11-18-2012, 11:18 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
In the INFORMATION AGE, there is no way Datsyuk comes to us as a total mystery man after three years in Russia's top league.

In 1998, there was virtually no information to be found about overseas hockey. The Internet was still young. Even by 2002, the net was nowhere near what it is now.

If Datsyuk was a recent 20 year old draft pick in the KHL, he'd surely have a couple highlight reel goals that would find their way onto Youtube. We'd see his eight points and be underwhelmed, but then we'd notice that 8 points led the team in scoring.
Hmmmmm.

Chad S would be posting every highlight he could find. We'd watch games via streams. And we'd see that this kid, while small and weak, had incredible skill

Sure, there are still secrets in the obscure 2nd and third and 4th tier leagues in Europe. But Datsyuk was playing in the top league and leading his team in scoring.
I'm not arguing that he still would be a total mystery man. I'm saying that the following statement is somewhat wrong, imho. And I'm really talking before the draft. Of course we would follow him closely after the draft.

Quote:
If Datsyuk was 20 years old today, hfboards would be loaded with posts about his "sick dangles"
Loaded by what sick dangles? He scored 3 goals for crying out loud.

And really look... how often you see here posted "sick dangles" made by some relatively unknown Russian kid? It's not like HFBoards are loaded with them. And believe me... there are plenty of players out there who can do them. For example... Varnakov scored one of the most amazing goals that I have seen and it's not like this board went nuts and exploded because of this.

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11-18-2012, 11:42 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lazerbullet View Post
I'm not arguing that he still would be a total mystery man. I'm saying that the following statement is somewhat wrong, imho. And I'm really talking before the draft. Of course we would follow him closely after the draft.
I'm comparing Datsyuk, two years post draft, to Jarnkrok, two years post draft.
Which is where this tangent came from, when Henkka suggested Jarnkrok would replace Datsyuk like Datsyuk replaced Fedorov.



Quote:
Loaded by what sick dangles? He scored 3 goals for crying out loud.
You don't need to score goals to make an impressive play that gets attention on Youtube.


Quote:
And really look... how often you see here posted "sick dangles" made by some relatively unknown Russian kid? It's not like HFBoards are loaded with them. And believe me... there are plenty of players out there who can do them. For example... Varnakov scored one of the most amazing goals that I have seen and it's not like this board went nuts and exploded because of this.
No single video will light the world afire.
But it gives FANS and INTERESTED PEOPLE info they wouldn't have had 12 years ago.

We know a hell of a lot more about Jarnkrok today than we knew about Datsyuk 18 months after he was drafted.

And that's what I'm talking about.

Jarnkrok hasn't displayed the kind of skating or skill that makes me think he's going to be an elite player.
I think he'll likely be a good player. But I don't see as an NHL superstar.

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11-18-2012, 11:54 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Jarnkrok hasn't displayed the kind of skating or skill that makes me think he's going to be an elite player.
I think he'll likely be a good player. But I don't see as an NHL superstar.
Okay. Now I understand what you mean.

How about Zetterberg? Did you saw something special in his game right away? It's more fair to compare Jarnkrok to Zetterberg since both did great in SEL at the same age.

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11-18-2012, 01:12 PM
  #31
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Comments made about Datsyuk in October and November 2001 - Datsyuk's rookie year, when he was getting 7-12 minutes a night.
Quote:
* Pavel Datsyuk is playing well. Good moves. Deceptive speed. Not too shy in
the corners. I would love to see the kid take a regular shift in Draper's
place with Fedorov and Shanahan. The kid is a passer. And for all the
excitedment about the 3-D line, Devereaux and Dandenault have hands made of
granite.
Quote:
It is amazing how elusive he looks. It almost looks like he has no trouble
to step around the defenseman and into the scoring position.
Quote:
He was playing against Roenick? As far as gaining weight - I am not sure
he needs that at the moment. It looks like he can win the battle along the
boards just with stickhandling (I recall a moment when he was able to keep
the puck with 2 people on him). He also somehow can gain the posession
along the boards without pushing people out of the way - I would
call it surgical puck removal He took a hit from a much bigger dman
and stayed on his feet, so his balance is good. The only reason for
him to gain weight IMO is to avoid injuries.
Quote:
When he burst out of the pack of 2 or 3 Flyers along the boards with
the puck, I really thought he deserved to at least be rewarded with a
call for the hook that was being put on him. Note to Bowman: Please
require Fedorov to work with Datsyuk on his shot.
Quote:
Williams is Devereaux part 2. Datsyuk on the other hand has a lot of raw skills
that you can't teach. I believe that Datsyuk will be a 2nd line player in a
couple year.
Quote:
.. Datsyuk continues to look impressive out there. He
moves the puck pretty well. He needs to finish more often. Williams has
looked invisible since the opening of the season. He'd better get in gear or
Devereaux will take his spot.
Quote:
Pavel Datsyuk continues to impress. That kid has the uncanny
ability to make people look foolish.
Quote:
Williams has a very underrated shot, and Datsyuk has
shown an ability to create something out of nothing.
Quote:
Wow. Datsyuk looked really good. He is definetely top line material.
He even went into the corners, battled for the puck etc. I felt
he did not play "small". If he is not injured out of the
NHL, the Wings have a real player on their hands. His shot is not
fast, but quick and accurate (see Larionov).
Quote:
ll things
considered, Pavel has more upside. That kid has raw talent to spare.
He's just damn fun to watch. He may already be the b
<--- Oct. 5, 2001 -- on a team with Fedorov, yzerman, Lidstrom. Shanahan, Robitaille, Larionov, Hull, etc

Quote:
I don't know where they found Datsyuk but he looks very promising. It is hard to take
the puck away from him and those moves, wow!! His tricks make Fedorov's moves look
like child's play. He is something special. It looks like the Wings scouting staff
has woken up with Zetterburg and him

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11-18-2012, 01:14 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lazerbullet View Post
Okay. Now I understand what you mean.

How about Zetterberg? Did you saw something special in his game right away? It's more fair to compare Jarnkrok to Zetterberg since both did great in SEL at the same age.
Yeah, but by year 2, wasn't Zetterberg already a folk hero in Timra?
People were calling him the next Forsberg. IMO, there are some similar characteristics, but I don't think Zetterberg reached Forsberg's level of dominance.

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11-18-2012, 01:14 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lazerbullet View Post
Okay. Now I understand what you mean.

How about Zetterberg? Did you saw something special in his game right away? It's more fair to compare Jarnkrok to Zetterberg since both did great in SEL at the same age.
Yeah, if Jarnkrok replaces Datsyuk not by being another Datsyuk, but by being more of a Zetterberg-type, well, he's pretty effectively replaced Datsyuk, just in a different way. I don't know whether Jarnkrok will ever get to that level, the odds are probably that he won't, but we have to hope, since he's the only center prospect we have with that potential.

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11-18-2012, 01:32 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Yeah, if Jarnkrok replaces Datsyuk not by being another Datsyuk, but by being more of a Zetterberg-type, well, he's pretty effectively replaced Datsyuk, just in a different way. I don't know whether Jarnkrok will ever get to that level, the odds are probably that he won't, but we have to hope, since he's the only center prospect we have with that potential.
I don't see him as Zetterberg either, quite honestly.

But I see him as someone more on the Filppula level on the talent scale. Which is about where I see Nyquist, though I believe Nyquist as more offensive chops than Jarnkrok or Filppula.
Pretty good players. But maybe not at the level of the world class talent we've seen from our best players over the course of the last 25 years.

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11-18-2012, 01:47 PM
  #35
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We need Jurco to become a star.

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11-18-2012, 01:51 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I don't see him as Zetterberg either, quite honestly.
In style of play? That's what I meant. He doesn't shoot as much as Zetterberg does, but his game is pretty similar. Much closer to Zetterberg than Datsyuk anyway, imo.


Quote:
But I see him as someone more on the Filppula level on the talent scale. Which is about where I see Nyquist, though I believe Nyquist as more offensive chops than Jarnkrok or Filppula.
Pretty good players. But maybe not at the level of the world class talent we've seen from our best players over the course of the last 25 years.
Odds are that you're right, since there are so very few players in the world who are on the level of Datsyuk/Zetterberg. But if Nyquist or Jarnkrok do manage to take that "last step" and have a similar level of impact that Datsyuk or Zettereberg do, I will not be surprised, based on what I've seen from each player. I do believe they have the potential. What I don't know is the chance that they actually reach that potential. 25%? 10%? 1%? 0.001%?

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11-18-2012, 01:56 PM
  #37
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I have always thought Jarnkrok is a poor mans Backstrom. He is going to be a dynamite PP player. The PP is the reason I think he is going to be a big scorer, he will be fine even strength as well, but the kid is going to make a living off the point as far as running up his numbers.

Not really sure what your point is CB, we are talking about what was known before he came over. You just put out a bunch of quotes, mostly from his rookie year. Say Jarnkrok shows up and immediately plugs in, dekes people makes them look stupid and has good puck control. He will be written about as promising as well. I obviously don't think he is anything like Datsyuk, but I do Jarnkrok will lead the team in scoring at some point.

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11-18-2012, 02:00 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 13 HockeyTown 40 View Post
We need Jurco to become a star.
It was interesting watching him play in person last week. He's still pretty raw as a pro. His play without the puck is sometimes dreadful, and he needs to take huge strides there. He needs to be more consistent. He needs more confidence. I don't know what his off-ice habits are, but it looked like he could use a boost in the conditioning department too. Overall, he needs to work harder. But those are all things he can improve on with the proper motivation. He has the skill and the talent, and that's the stuff you can't work on acquiring. You have to just have it. And he does. He flashed it a few times in the game I saw and a few times in the games I watched online. He's still a long ways away (I don't think we'll see him getting regular time in Detroit before the 2015-16 season), but the foundation for a top-6 winger who can pot 25-30 goals is there, imo. It will be interesting to see how his career unfolds over the next few years.

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11-18-2012, 02:26 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 13 HockeyTown 40 View Post
We need Jurco to become a star.
I agree. I think Jurco has the size/skill to be that guy who takes it to the next level. But, IMO, we really need an elite center, too.

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11-18-2012, 02:54 PM
  #40
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I still think it's way to early to tell what happens to our top prospects. It's more likely that they are closer to be as good as Filppula or Franzen. But we can't rule out that some of them reaches higher level of play.

As promising as Datsyuk was nobody expected that he will be a top3 player in the league and arguably the best two-way forward of his time.
Same thing with Zetterberg. As good as he was in Sweden nobody expected that at his peak Zetterberg is also top3/top5 player in the game and one the best playoff performers of his time.
And as promising as Nick Lidstrom was in his first seasons, nobody expected that he retires as by far the best defenseman of his time and one of the best ever.

You can't really tell. Some players keep developing when they are 25 or even older. Some peak at 20. None of our prospects are as promising as Malkin, Crosby, Kane or Stamkos were, but they could surprise. And if they don't... well, it can't last forever.

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11-18-2012, 03:06 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lazerbullet View Post
I still think it's way to early to tell what happens to our top prospects. It's more likely that they are closer to be as good as Filppula or Franzen. But we can't rule out that some of them reaches higher level of play.

As promising as Datsyuk was nobody expected that he will be a top3 player in the league and arguably the best two-way forward of his time.
Same thing with Zetterberg. As good as he was in Sweden nobody expected that at his peak Zetterberg is also top3/top5 player in the game and one the best playoff performers of his time.
And as promising as Nick Lidstrom was in his first seasons, nobody expected that he retires as by far the best defenseman of his time and one of the best ever.

You can't really tell. Some players keep developing when they are 25 or even older. Some peak at 20. None of our prospects are as promising as Malkin, Crosby, Kane or Stamkos were, but they could surprise. And if they don't... well, it can't last forever.
Zetterberg came over with tons of hype.
the next Forsberg. Future captain. Best player not in North America.

I wouldn't rule out the idea that Jarnkrok will become a Zetterberg or Datsyuk.

But if I were betting money, I wouldn't bet on it.

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11-18-2012, 03:32 PM
  #42
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A part of what scares me if Datsyuk did leave is it changes the dressing room environment a lot. When Ilitch bought the team he basically encouraged the old guard to show back up. I think that is a part of the success, then once they were good it kept getting passed along. That work ethic that hunger for the game of hockey. Zetterberg and Kronwall have it but it isn't nearly as all over the locker room. You lose the biggest watch how out star player plays hard every night element. Not that Z doesn't it just feels different, Datsyuk seems to have that ability to spark teammates on ice in various different ways.

On top of that the lastest generation of Wings didn't hang around which is disappointing. Yzerman (Tampa), Fedorov (CSKA), Shanahan (league office), Lidstrom (Sweden) and that is a tough break. Sure guys like Fischer, Maltby, Chelios and Draper are around but really only Chelios commands that HHOF respect. It worries me a little, I always thought all the guys hanging around helped make Detroit special. I am glad they have opportunities and are happy, I just think it stinks that so many are gone. I mean Larionov and Chelios are really the big two left in town.

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11-18-2012, 04:34 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
A part of what scares me if Datsyuk did leave is it changes the dressing room environment a lot. When Ilitch bought the team he basically encouraged the old guard to show back up. I think that is a part of the success, then once they were good it kept getting passed along. That work ethic that hunger for the game of hockey. Zetterberg and Kronwall have it but it isn't nearly as all over the locker room. You lose the biggest watch how out star player plays hard every night element. Not that Z doesn't it just feels different, Datsyuk seems to have that ability to spark teammates on ice in various different ways.

On top of that the lastest generation of Wings didn't hang around which is disappointing. Yzerman (Tampa), Fedorov (CSKA), Shanahan (league office), Lidstrom (Sweden) and that is a tough break. Sure guys like Fischer, Maltby, Chelios and Draper are around but really only Chelios commands that HHOF respect. It worries me a little, I always thought all the guys hanging around helped make Detroit special. I am glad they have opportunities and are happy, I just think it stinks that so many are gone. I mean Larionov and Chelios are really the big two left in town.
Lids will continue to help out back in Sweden. I personally want him to tell Mattias Backstrom absolutely everything he can about how he played the game. Maybe Pavs can help out back in Russia, we don't have much of a presence over there. Hopefully he can help Marchenko this season get ready for the NHL.

So long story short we'll have the NA guys here to help out in the locker room and with player development on this side of the pond. Lids and Pavs can help us overseas. Mule can help with the auto industry commercial aspect of hockey operations.

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11-18-2012, 05:05 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Jarnkrok is not even close to being a kind of guy who replaces Datsyuk.
I did not say he's going to replace Datsyuk. But he will be the guy who most benefits, if Pavel leaves the team earlier that we thought.

No one can replace Pavel, but we have good guys to put in here and there. Superb promising defence (Smith/Oueller/Sproul) and a goaltender (Mrazek) to be build for the future. Järnkrok will be 2nd line center and 2nd PP quarterback. And very good at it.

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11-18-2012, 06:07 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
A part of what scares me if Datsyuk did leave is it changes the dressing room environment a lot. When Ilitch bought the team he basically encouraged the old guard to show back up. I think that is a part of the success, then once they were good it kept getting passed along. That work ethic that hunger for the game of hockey. Zetterberg and Kronwall have it but it isn't nearly as all over the locker room. You lose the biggest watch how out star player plays hard every night element. Not that Z doesn't it just feels different, Datsyuk seems to have that ability to spark teammates on ice in various different ways.

On top of that the lastest generation of Wings didn't hang around which is disappointing. Yzerman (Tampa), Fedorov (CSKA), Shanahan (league office), Lidstrom (Sweden) and that is a tough break. Sure guys like Fischer, Maltby, Chelios and Draper are around but really only Chelios commands that HHOF respect. It worries me a little, I always thought all the guys hanging around helped make Detroit special. I am glad they have opportunities and are happy, I just think it stinks that so many are gone. I mean Larionov and Chelios are really the big two left in town.
The other thing, to me, is that Datsyuk is the true successor to Yzerman. He's the guy with the "hockey heart" who goes into the corners with Zdeno Chara and Shea Weber and delivers the hits. He's the one who drops the mitts with Corey Perry.
Zetterberg is a great player with lots of heart. But he doesn't have Pavel's tenacity and fearlessness. And Kronwall... well, I'm not sold on him as a leader at all. Guys who turtle after delivering huge hits are not what I see as leaders.

We have a soft team... Especially in our top 6. We need to get more fight in our game.

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11-18-2012, 06:20 PM
  #46
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Zetterberg is the successor to Yzerman, imo, and that will be more clear to some people when Hank is given the C this year. They both have the "hockey heart," but in the comparison to Stevie, it's the leadership factor that sets Zetterberg apart from Datsyuk. Zetterberg steps up when he's truly needed as well (big games, when Datsyuk's been out, in the playoffs), which is more akin to Yzerman.

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11-18-2012, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
The other thing, to me, is that Datsyuk is the true successor to Yzerman. He's the guy with the "hockey heart" who goes into the corners with Zdeno Chara and Shea Weber and delivers the hits. He's the one who drops the mitts with Corey Perry.
Zetterberg is a great player with lots of heart. But he doesn't have Pavel's tenacity and fearlessness. And Kronwall... well, I'm not sold on him as a leader at all. Guys who turtle after delivering huge hits are not what I see as leaders.

We have a soft team... Especially in our top 6. We need to get more fight in our game.
Unfortunately for you everyone in the dressing room talks about what a great leader Kronwall has become. I am only interested in him trading for a good player since it isn't his job on the team. The only time I was truly disappointed in Kronwall not going was the Kesler hit. He left his feet and Kesler himself not some nothing challenged him. With him being the #1 d-man I am even less interested in him fighting. Ryan Suter has exactly two fights in his career. Chris Pronger fought four times since the lockout and 10 times since 98 when he became a number 1 d-man. It is overrated not many true number 1 guys give themselves up to go to the box. Watch Smith won't fight nearly as often once he gets to first pairing status. You cannot afford to have them in the box unless the game is already over. That is when Chara does a lot of his fighting, frustration bouts.

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11-18-2012, 07:09 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Unfortunately for you everyone in the dressing room talks about what a great leader Kronwall has become. I am only interested in him trading for a good player since it isn't his job on the team. The only time I was truly disappointed in Kronwall not going was the Kesler hit. He left his feet and Kesler himself not some nothing challenged him. With him being the #1 d-man I am even less interested in him fighting. Ryan Suter has exactly two fights in his career. Chris Pronger fought four times since the lockout and 10 times since 98 when he became a number 1 d-man. It is overrated not many true number 1 guys give themselves up to go to the box. Watch Smith won't fight nearly as often once he gets to first pairing status. You cannot afford to have them in the box unless the game is already over. That is when Chara does a lot of his fighting, frustration bouts.
If Kronwall won't fight, then he should stop hitting people. Right, CB?

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11-18-2012, 07:20 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Unfortunately for you everyone in the dressing room talks about what a great leader Kronwall has become. I am only interested in him trading for a good player since it isn't his job on the team. The only time I was truly disappointed in Kronwall not going was the Kesler hit. He left his feet and Kesler himself not some nothing challenged him. With him being the #1 d-man I am even less interested in him fighting. Ryan Suter has exactly two fights in his career. Chris Pronger fought four times since the lockout and 10 times since 98 when he became a number 1 d-man. It is overrated not many true number 1 guys give themselves up to go to the box. Watch Smith won't fight nearly as often once he gets to first pairing status. You cannot afford to have them in the box unless the game is already over. That is when Chara does a lot of his fighting, frustration bouts.
I don't care about what everyone in the dressing room talks about.
Very few people ever talk about how "So and so" is a bad leader, whether they are or not.
When it comes to leaders, I follow leaders who don't shy away from challenges.
I follow leaders who don't act like cowards on the ice.

And if you think none of this matters, people should remember the rep our team had before Brendan Shanahan came to town.

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11-18-2012, 07:21 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Zetterberg is the successor to Yzerman, imo, and that will be more clear to some people when Hank is given the C this year. They both have the "hockey heart," but in the comparison to Stevie, it's the leadership factor that sets Zetterberg apart from Datsyuk. Zetterberg steps up when he's truly needed as well (big games, when Datsyuk's been out, in the playoffs), which is more akin to Yzerman.
Zetterberg doesn't have Yzerman's fire.

Datsyuk does. He's a much more competitive and combative player.

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