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Pitlick, Hamilton, and Martindale Relative To Their Peers

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Old
11-18-2012, 08:57 PM
  #26
Bergeron47
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Originally Posted by tiger_80 View Post
Yeh, more realistic expectation for Lander is a limited minutes 4th line PK centre. 3d line centre is his maximum upside, IMHO. Many things have to go right for that to happen.
Agreed. He's a Marty Reasoner minus the faceoff ability.

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11-18-2012, 09:05 PM
  #27
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Agreed. He's a Marty Reasoner minus the faceoff ability.
Reasoner did have a couple of 30 point seasons, but I agree in general. Seems like a good comparable (character guy with limited offensive ability and skating issues that prevented him from establishing himself as an elite checking centre). Reasoner was also drafted very high (14th overall in 1996).

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11-18-2012, 10:41 PM
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I see players like Pitlick, Lander, PRV, being our 3rd line. I would be happy with that.
Agreed. This would solve lots of problems if they turn out. We need a line as effective as the old Moreau-Marchant-Greer line. I don't see Lander or MPS being bangers like that old line, but a good puck possession defenssive line would be great. Similar to Detroit's third line. We do need some smash mouth players though. Hopefully this year's crop provides that.

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11-18-2012, 10:42 PM
  #29
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Reasoner did have a couple of 30 point seasons, but I agree in general. Seems like a good comparable (character guy with limited offensive ability and skating issues that prevented him from establishing himself as an elite checking centre). Reasoner was also drafted very high (14th overall in 1996).
Yeah, former Hobey Baker nominee IIRC.

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11-18-2012, 10:43 PM
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Just dawned on me that PRV is turning into a Dvorak.

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11-18-2012, 10:44 PM
  #31
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Just dawned on me that PRV is turning into a Dvorak.
Good. This team could use a DVO.

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11-18-2012, 11:02 PM
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Yeah, former Hobey Baker nominee IIRC.
And point per game player at the AHL level. A lot of the guys we think of as limited offensive production who carved out successful 3rd/4th line center rolls were guys who scored at previous levels. We can't even say that right now about our forward prospects. Its scary.

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11-18-2012, 11:15 PM
  #33
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The Barons players would/will have better outputs (presumably) if there was an NHL season and top line minutes were disseminated differently.

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11-18-2012, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by IV XIV XCI View Post
The Barons players would/will have better outputs (presumably) if there was an NHL season and top line minutes were disseminated differently.
Seems like a logical assumption.

Also...looking at the AHL stats...OKC is up near the top of the league for total PIMS.

It's tough to spread the scoring around on a team taking too many penalties.

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11-19-2012, 01:05 AM
  #35
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Lets not forget Marincin, who was a second rounder in that draft. Also, we have players who were chosen lower doing very well, albeit in junior, like Reider, Gernat and Musil.

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11-19-2012, 01:34 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Bergeron47 View Post
Just dawned on me that PRV is turning into a Dvorak.
That's been the consensus between most of us for nearly a year now

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11-19-2012, 01:55 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Bergeron47 View Post
Just dawned on me that PRV is turning into a Dvorak.
Nothing wrong with a Dvorak in his prime.

I'd take that at this point.

I think his maximum upside is Hossa, with not as good a shot but a bit faster. I don't think he'll hit the offense, but I think there's a useful player there. Give him time.

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11-19-2012, 01:57 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Bergeron47 View Post
Just dawned on me that PRV is turning into a Dvorak.
I wish he could develop into a Dvorak, which is basically a perennial 30-40 point player capable of killing penalties and playing against tough competition ES with occasional 50+ point season here and there (In his best season Dvorak scored 31 goals and 67 points) . 1.191 NHL games in the NHL at the age of 35. The guy had a solid career.

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11-19-2012, 02:06 AM
  #39
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Nothing wrong with a Dvorak in his prime.

I'd take that at this point.

I think his maximum upside is Hossa, with not as good a shot but a bit faster. I don't think he'll hit the offense, but I think there's a useful player there. Give him time.
You are aware that Hossa was a 90-100 point player in his prime? Hall might be able to reach that level one day. Paajarvi just does not belong in the same conversation at this point.

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11-19-2012, 02:08 AM
  #40
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It would be crazy to write off either of these guys at this point.

Matindale gets lazy at times, but he's still got a lot more upside that most of the other centers in our system. I

'm now at the point where I doubt CVV even makes it as a 4th line center in the NHL.

I wanted Hamilton sent down to the ECHL at the beginning of the season. I think the AHL is too much for him and I think he needs to play some easier hockey to get some confidence under him. He was a big kid in juniors. 6"3 202 pounds is pretty decent size for someone playing in a pro league, but it's not enough for him to do what he was doing in the WHL. Out of the three he's the guy I'm worried about slipping the most.

Pitlick is a victim to having crapy linemates this year. Past Hopkins, the Barons don't have a single offensive wiz kid of a center. If our coach wants to fiddle around with lines and chemistry in order to win, I'd put Hall at center.

Hartikainen-Hopkins-Eberle
Magnus-Hall-Pitlick

And on top of that, stop giving our bottom six players so much ice time. If you take Pitlick out of the equation the rest of those kids have played a fair number of games in the NHL. We should be playing them harder. They'll put up more offense and it'll help their development curve in a positive way.

The argument could easily be made that reduced minutes for the bottoms six kids would be bad for their development curve and that's just more reason to send some bodies down to the ECHL. It wouldn't be devastating to our organization to send both Hamilton and Matindale down to Stockton where they can play more minutes and learn to play better against adults.

I want the Barons to win this year and I don't think it's a big deal if we pulled Hall off of the wing for the season. If it works out really well it gives us another option for a 2nd line center in the NHL. Heck, it worked when he was in juniors.

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Old
11-19-2012, 02:22 AM
  #41
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While it would be nice to have some steals and overachievers in those 2nd and 3rd round forwards... saying that Stu & Co are failures if none of them pan out is probably going too far.

I agree it's still too early to write them off...but let's flash forward 3-5 years and assume that all 3 of Pitlick, Martindale and Hamilton are busts... never getting (or deserving) more than a cup of coffee at the NHL level.

Dissapointing? Not really... them's the breaks and we knew there was no way all or even most of the Oilers picks past the 1st round would pan out... because the law of averages when it comes to draft picks clearly shows that VERY few pan out to have long NHL careers... and the few exceptions prove the rule.

I personally will be VERY happy if none of Hall, RNH and Yakupov bust... which they certainly don't look to be doing so far... knock on wood with Yakupov.

Throw in the overachieving (relative to his draft position) Eberle and I'd say the Oilers are doing well in the draft department.

If they can get one other NHL regular out of say Harti, MPS, Lander etc... then I think that actually sways the balance clearly towards successful drafts these last 5 years.

I agree with those that say Stu's best picks have been no-brainers... RNH, Hall, Yakupov being the real keys. Eberle the "steal" and then it looks like some decent dmen choices (Klefbom/Gernat/Marincin/Musil among others hopefully).

The rest of the forwards don't look all that promising so far but if they can get even 1 NHL player out of Harti, MPS, Lander, Pitlick, Hamilton, Reider etc I personally think that's decent. Not exceptional... but when you draft players like Hall/Eberle/RNH/Yakupov and then get a gift like Schultz falling in your lap... having to have draft picks pan out in the later rounds doesn't become as critical. Maybe that's not the way to think about it... but it's essentially true.

They could have ****ed up by NOT picking the obvious BPA picks (like they almost did with Murray over Yakupov)... but they thankfully averted that monumental screw-up. Their 2nd round choice of Moroz was moronic... but so be it. They likely made some other reaches as well... Khaira among them. He could well turn out or be a dud also. Maybe Zharkov turns into a 2nd/3rd liner down the road... maybe not. Maybe Rieder far exceeds his draft position.. maybe not.

I'd say my overall view is that the Oilers have 4 very solid 1st round forward picks in the last 5 drafts... and each one of them are already or likely will be very elite players. Not many teams can even match that record... anything else is really gravy when it comes to the forwards.

Stu is neither a drafting god or inept... somewhere in between I'd say... like other scouts, he makes some decent picks and some dud choices as as well.

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Old
11-19-2012, 02:29 AM
  #42
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A lot of picks Stu has made in the past have looked good in Jr but that hasn't translated to the Pros. He was given a lot of credit for this, and IMO it was undeserved. Success HAS to be judged by players success in the NHL. As stated, the only guy to his name so far is Eberle, and it looks like Hartikainen will be there too. This years draft really made me ask a lot of questions, taking a ton of off the board guys like Moroz and Kharia. To me that's drafting size for the sake of size, and not really looking at anything else. Moroz is gonna be a bust IMO, he's got size but doesn't use it. Sucks that they coulda grabbed Marty Frk or Luddy Bystrom at that spot.

Guys like Marty Gernat and Tobias Reider will define Stu's legacy, because other than that he's got 1 good pick and three no brainer first overalls to his name. Not that good a success rate IMO.

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Old
11-19-2012, 07:58 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by thadd View Post
It would be crazy to write off either of these guys at this point.

Matindale gets lazy at times, but he's still got a lot more upside that most of the other centers in our system. I

'm now at the point where I doubt CVV even makes it as a 4th line center in the NHL.

I wanted Hamilton sent down to the ECHL at the beginning of the season. I think the AHL is too much for him and I think he needs to play some easier hockey to get some confidence under him. He was a big kid in juniors. 6"3 202 pounds is pretty decent size for someone playing in a pro league, but it's not enough for him to do what he was doing in the WHL. Out of the three he's the guy I'm worried about slipping the most.

Pitlick is a victim to having crapy linemates this year. Past Hopkins, the Barons don't have a single offensive wiz kid of a center. If our coach wants to fiddle around with lines and chemistry in order to win, I'd put Hall at center.

Hartikainen-Hopkins-Eberle
Magnus-Hall-Pitlick

And on top of that, stop giving our bottom six players so much ice time. If you take Pitlick out of the equation the rest of those kids have played a fair number of games in the NHL. We should be playing them harder. They'll put up more offense and it'll help their development curve in a positive way.

The argument could easily be made that reduced minutes for the bottoms six kids would be bad for their development curve and that's just more reason to send some bodies down to the ECHL. It wouldn't be devastating to our organization to send both Hamilton and Matindale down to Stockton where they can play more minutes and learn to play better against adults.

I want the Barons to win this year and I don't think it's a big deal if we pulled Hall off of the wing for the season. If it works out really well it gives us another option for a 2nd line center in the NHL. Heck, it worked when he was in juniors.
Pitlick has spent a lot of time playing with Mark Arcobello, who you're vastly underrating if you consider him a crappy linemate. Arcobello is a pretty dang good AHL player, just a little undersized. He actually somewhat reminds me of a poor man's Jordan Eberle at the AHL level. He will never put up Eberle-esque numbers, but he plays a similar style.

If we assume that when Green returns from injury, we will likely have a 3rd line of Green-Arcobello-Pitlick. That's definitely not crappy linemates at the AHL level, and I bet some would even wager that if there was an anchor on that line, it would be Pitlick.

He is a great skater, and has the tools to be dominant physically when he wants to be. He has been more consistent with his physical play this season though, which was a knock on him last season. However, he is starting to remind me of Paajarvi with his offensive approach. Pitlick will either go wide and throw a wrister on net from a terrible angle looking for a rebound/deflection, or he will just skate it around the net and proceed to carrying it back to the point.

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Old
11-19-2012, 12:37 PM
  #44
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I've been saying that for a while now. I am not anti-Stu or a Stu groupie, but I don't agree that the copious amounts of praise heaped on him are a bit premature.

RNH and Hall have done well, but a monkey could (would) have made those picks. And I expect Yakupov to be more of the same.
Speaking of premature - I think the criticism on Stu is premature. Still way too early to be called busts. I prefer to wait until five years after the draft.

And as for a monkey could have picked RNH - really? I'm amused to recall how many posters on here thought RNH was the wrong pick because he was way too small, then how many posters thought he shouldn't play in the first year because he was way too small. Now, hindsight says that even a monkey could have made that pick. Interesting.

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11-19-2012, 12:39 PM
  #45
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Speaking of premature - I think the criticism on Stu is premature. Still way too early to be called busts.

And as for a monkey could have picked RNH - really? I'm amused to recall how many posters on here thought RNH was the wrong pick because he was way too small, then how many posters thought he shouldn't play in the first year because he was way too small. Now, hindsight says that even a monkey could have made that pick. Interesting.
I can't speak for everyone but for me it was more clear cut than Hall Vs. Seguin.

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11-19-2012, 01:00 PM
  #46
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Speaking of premature - I think the criticism on Stu is premature. Still way too early to be called busts. I prefer to wait until five years after the draft.

And as for a monkey could have picked RNH - really? I'm amused to recall how many posters on here thought RNH was the wrong pick because he was way too small, then how many posters thought he shouldn't play in the first year because he was way too small. Now, hindsight says that even a monkey could have made that pick. Interesting.
Not sure what you're latching on to here. I have not criticized Stu. I haven't claimed any of the guys to be busts.

As for Hall, RNH, and Yakupov, all 3 were consensus top picks. Even if he would have gone with Seguin and Landeskog, that wouldn't have been terrible either, but that's neither here nor there. The point is, #1 overall is not where you earn your stripes as a scout in my opinion - it's outside of the top 10 and the later rounds. You seem to believe he employed some other worldly insight leading up to the Hall/RNH/Yakupov picks. I think they were pretty much no brainers.

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Old
11-19-2012, 01:02 PM
  #47
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I can't speak for everyone but for me it was more clear cut than Hall Vs. Seguin.
I think it can be said for both of them though. We took Hall and Nuge despite needing a #1C and a #1 dman at the time of the drafts, and having all the media saying we should take the other 2.

Also, its a little unfair to start with the panic mode. We still have a lot of guys that are progressing well like Marincin, Davidson, Musil, Roy, Bunz, etc. You're never going to have every pick pan out.

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11-19-2012, 02:13 PM
  #48
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Not sure what you're latching on to here. I have not criticized Stu. I haven't claimed any of the guys to be busts.

As for Hall, RNH, and Yakupov, all 3 were consensus top picks. Even if he would have gone with Seguin and Landeskog, that wouldn't have been terrible either, but that's neither here nor there. The point is, #1 overall is not where you earn your stripes as a scout in my opinion - it's outside of the top 10 and the later rounds. You seem to believe he employed some other worldly insight leading up to the Hall/RNH/Yakupov picks. I think they were pretty much no brainers.
Sorry Hoogar, I was merging two posts into one.

My point on the criticism on Stu was at the general thread, not at your post.

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11-19-2012, 02:42 PM
  #49
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@okcbarons injuries: Pitlick and House have concussions,

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11-19-2012, 02:56 PM
  #50
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@okcbarons injuries: Pitlick and House have concussions,
****!

Hopefully neither concussion is too bad, Pitlick was already having a tough go of it without having injuries to worry about.

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