HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk > Polls - (hockey-related only)
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2

Better Prime: Datsyuk vs Zetterberg

View Poll Results: Who had the better prime?
Pavel Datsyuk 66 85.71%
Henrik Zetterberg 11 14.29%
Voters: 77. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-18-2012, 04:50 PM
  #1
OzzyFan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Country: United States
Posts: 2,000
vCash: 500
Better Prime: Datsyuk vs Zetterberg

Something I've always pondered about these 2 dominant 2-way center teammates. Who had the better prime, Pavel Datsyuk or Henrik Zetterberg?

OzzyFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2012, 04:58 PM
  #2
nowhereman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,747
vCash: 500
There's nothing to ponder.

Datsyuk, without question. Two back-to-back 87 point seasons, two back-to-back 97 point seasons, and three back-to-back Selkes.

nowhereman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2012, 05:20 PM
  #3
TrillMike
Registered User
 
TrillMike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 4,796
vCash: 500
Datsyuk

TrillMike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2012, 05:30 PM
  #4
Four Boilermakers
Sea Bass said that?
 
Four Boilermakers's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 5,231
vCash: 500
I personally like Zetterberg more, but Datsyuk is the better player and had the higher peak of the two.

Four Boilermakers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2012, 05:47 PM
  #5
Morlesio14*
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: The 416
Country: North Korea
Posts: 776
vCash: 500
Throughout their whole career its been,
1. Lindstrom
2. Datsyuk
3. Zetterberg

Morlesio14* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2012, 05:50 PM
  #6
Fred Taylor
The Cyclone
 
Fred Taylor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,082
vCash: 500
Datsyuk, although Zetterbergs 07-08 season and playoffs were as good as any season Datsyuk had.

Fred Taylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2012, 06:15 PM
  #7
Benny FTW
TurnSoonestToTheSea
 
Benny FTW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Kingston
Country: Canada
Posts: 22,753
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morlesio14 View Post
Throughout their whole career its been,
1. Lindstrom
2. Datsyuk
3. Zetterberg
Joakim Lindstrom is not better than Datsyuk or Zetterberg.

Benny FTW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2012, 06:19 PM
  #8
The Nose
#thefuture
 
The Nose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Country: United States
Posts: 6,842
vCash: 500
Datsyuk, but its a lot closer than people think.

The Nose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2012, 06:29 PM
  #9
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Zetterberg should have won those Selkes, not Datsyuk. When Z is being used as the shut-down forward because he's the best defensive forward the team has, it kind of invalidates the idea that Datsyuk is the best defensive forward.

The big reason people think of Datsyuk as having the better prime is Z's drop off in points from 2007-08 to 2008-09 while Datsyuk posted comparable numbers. This occurred because Z was given his own line to center full-time, and used in a shut-down role, while Datsyuk centered Hossa (who scored 40 goals).

Perhaps most disgustingly, Z finished 9th in scoring while playing amazing defense in 2010-11 with Datsyuk out injured 1/3 of the year, yet it was Datsyuk who was the Selke finalist. Z was a PPG player, had the second-largest scoring lead over his next-closest teammate (18 over Lidstrom, Ovechkin was 20 over Backstrom) and the largest lead over the next closest forward (21 over Datsyuk). He should realistically have been a Hart finalist, but instead finished 16th (Ovechkin was 15th). Both Sedins and Kesler finished ahead of Z (and Ovechkin), which is ridiculous.


Last edited by pdd: 11-18-2012 at 07:12 PM.
pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2012, 06:40 PM
  #10
RedWingsNow*
SaskatoonDeathSquad
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,356
vCash: 500
Considering Hossa hasn't had a 30-goal season since leaving Detroit, I don't think you should act like Hossa made Datsyuk's stats good.
The year before, Zetterberg scored 43 on Datsyuk's wing. His best since then is 31.

RedWingsNow* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2012, 06:44 PM
  #11
Random Bruins Fan
Certified Poster
 
Random Bruins Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Spooner Street
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,873
vCash: 500
Datsyuk for sure.

Random Bruins Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2012, 06:57 PM
  #12
silkyjohnson50
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 8,995
vCash: 500
Peak: Tie
Prime: Datsyuk

These two have obviously been the two pilars up front for Detroit since the Yzerman and Fedorov days. Both have been of extreme value to the franchise and there's a reason why they're known in Detroit as the EuroTwins.

At their best, they were almost too close to separate. They did it in different ways, but together they were a perfect fit. Datsyuk was the playmaker, Zetterberg was the finisher. Both had well rounded offensive games and would seemingly play catch with each other until one decided to shoot, but Z liked to shoot more and Pavel liked to make the last pass. Pavel had an unparalleled skill level and Z had an unparalleled motor. Pavel was the most disruptive forward in the world defensively speaking, and Z was the best shadow. They were a dynamic duo and it finally led them to a Cup together in 08.

Until 2007, I always felt that Zetterberg was the slightly better player overall. Datsyuk has always been more dynamic/creative offensively IMO, but Z was just non stop and better defensively. Around 07 Datsyuk's overall game took a huge step though. He got physically stronger and his defensive game just went to a whole new level. In 07-08 both were peaking. Hands down the two best 2-way forwards in the NHL IMO. After that season, however, Zetterberg was never again as consistently dynamic offensively. He's still had strong seasons and spurts of his peak offensive production (and most importantly real strong postseasons), but he still hasn't been that 90+ pt player that we once seen. In addition, his defensive game isn't quite as strong since 08/09ish. The biggest reason from my vantage point is that he doesn't have the wheels/motor that he did during his peak. He's not as quick, not as fast, nor does he have the same ability to go 100% every shift like he once could.

Meanwhile, Datsyuk's 07-08 season wasn't just a one time thing. His 08-09 season was identical (97pt Selke) and his play during 10-11 and 11-12 was just as good prior to significant injuries. His 2011 playoffs were the best of his career and there were times during those last two seasons that you could strongly argue he was playing the best hockey of his career. So from a prime standpoint, Datsyuk is the correct answer. He stayed at a ridiculously high level longer and more consistently than Z. That's not to say that Z isn't a great player, it's just Datsyuk was a Top 5 forward more seasons. In addition, those who follow Detroit closely know that Datsyuk has been the engine behind their success in recent years. He's their best player and would be the best player on just about almost every other team (Pittsburgh fans have a pretty strong argument twice ).

silkyjohnson50 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2012, 06:58 PM
  #13
ricky0034
Registered User
 
ricky0034's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,565
vCash: 500
Datsyuk

(voted for Zetterberg by accident)

ricky0034 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2012, 06:58 PM
  #14
KidLine93
Registered User
 
KidLine93's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,466
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
Joakim Lindstrom is not better than Datsyuk or Zetterberg.
I love it when people bring him up since they can't spell lidstrom haha

KidLine93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2012, 07:02 PM
  #15
silkyjohnson50
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 8,995
vCash: 500
In addition to Capt Bob's comments regarding Eva... Eva also thought Zetteberg deserved the Hart like a season ago. And he thinks Yzerman is a top 10 player of all time. So when he really likes a player he goes a bit over the top.

silkyjohnson50 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2012, 07:14 PM
  #16
mytor4*
 
mytor4*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,175
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 13 HockeyTown 40 View Post
Datsyuk, but its a lot closer than people think.
Who thinks it isn't close?

mytor4* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2012, 07:23 PM
  #17
ottawa
go habs go
 
ottawa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,204
vCash: 500
Datsyuk, but as others have mentioned; its close.

ottawa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2012, 07:27 PM
  #18
silkyjohnson50
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 8,995
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by topdog View Post
Who thinks it isn't close?
I agree. People often times seem to think that a lopsided poll means that it's not close. It just means there's a clear answer.

If Player A shoots it 100mph and Player B shoots it 99mph, it doesn't mean their shots aren't close. It just means that Player A clearly shoots it harder.

silkyjohnson50 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2012, 07:35 PM
  #19
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Considering Hossa hasn't had a 30-goal season since leaving Detroit, I don't think you should act like Hossa made Datsyuk's stats good.
The year before, Zetterberg scored 43 on Datsyuk's wing. His best since then is 31.
Zetterberg playing with Datsyuk was used in a shooter role. The two actually split center duties when they were together, and Z took more faceoffs in 2006-07 and 2007-08. Since splitting, Z has been in far more of a playmaker role, often used with Johan Franzen (although Franzen has spent most of the lat two seasons with Datsyuk) or Dan Cleary. Last year Z's playmaking combined with two skilled forwards in Val Filppula and Jiri Hudler to create the team's best offensive line and one of the best scoring lines in the league.

As for Hossa, he had scored 40+ twice and 35+ four times in the five seasons before joining the Wings. Near the end of his season in Detroit he suffered a shoulder injury that limited his shot considerably (he played through it in the playoffs, but scored *only* 6-9-15 (19-29-48 over 74, compared to the 40-31-71 he put up in 74 games in the regular season) despite being very effective at creating chances and playing defensively. That stat line caused him to receive great criticism when the Wings lost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
In addition to Capt Bob's comments regarding Eva... Eva also thought Zetteberg deserved the Hart like a season ago. And he thinks Yzerman is a top 10 player of all time. So when he really likes a player he goes a bit over the top.
I said Hart finalist. And I think that's completely reasonable. Top ten in scoring, arguably the league's best defensive forward, only one other player (Ovechkin) has a comparable scoring gap, and his goaltender had a mediocre season. Yet he led his team to a division championship and third overall finish.

As for Yzerman, I have said top-ten isn't unrealistic. Very few players have peaked as high as Yzerman did and Yzerman also had an elite prime, and a long career with a sustained high level of play. The lat two can be said of many, but the first really is the kicker.

But this discussion isn't about Yzerman.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2012, 07:42 PM
  #20
nowhereman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,747
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Perhaps most disgustingly, Z finished 9th in scoring while playing amazing defense in 2010-11 with Datsyuk out injured 1/3 of the year, yet it was Datsyuk who was the Selke finalist. Z was a PPG player, had the second-largest scoring lead over his next-closest teammate (18 over Lidstrom, Ovechkin was 20 over Backstrom) and the largest lead over the next closest forward (21 over Datsyuk). He should realistically have been a Hart finalist, but instead finished 16th (Ovechkin was 15th). Both Sedins and Kesler finished ahead of Z (and Ovechkin), which is ridiculous.
Daniel Sedin finished 24 points ahead of Zetterberg and helped lead his team to a President's Trophy. How is it "ridiculous" that a player who also won the Ted Lindsay award would finish ahead of Zetterberg in the Hart voting?

And Ovechkin? He didn't deserve to be anywhere near the top of the Hart voting that year.

nowhereman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2012, 09:51 PM
  #21
OzzyFan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Country: United States
Posts: 2,000
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nowhereman View Post
Daniel Sedin finished 24 points ahead of Zetterberg and helped lead his team to a President's Trophy. How is it "ridiculous" that a player who also won the Ted Lindsay award would finish ahead of Zetterberg in the Hart voting?

And Ovechkin? He didn't deserve to be anywhere near the top of the Hart voting that year.
Because the Hart is given to a person that carries his team more than any other player. You could argue Daniel and Henrik both had a near exact positive impact for the Nucks that year, arguably Kesler even belongs in that discussion, thus non of the 3 should have got as many votes as they did. I'm not keen on Zetterberg getting honorary mention because Lidstrom belongs in that discussion as much as Zetterberg. Personally in the 10-11 season, I'd probably would have gave the Hart to Price, Lundqvist, Rinne, or the winner Perry.

OzzyFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2012, 10:08 PM
  #22
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nowhereman View Post
Daniel Sedin finished 24 points ahead of Zetterberg and helped lead his team to a President's Trophy. How is it "ridiculous" that a player who also won the Ted Lindsay award would finish ahead of Zetterberg in the Hart voting?

And Ovechkin? He didn't deserve to be anywhere near the top of the Hart voting that year.
Ovechkin was 7th in scoring and led his team by 20 points with 85. The Hart is for MVP, not best player. It's hard to argue that all three Vancouver forwards were more valuable than Ovechkin and Zetterberg, who carried the scoring load for their team by themselves. Especially when Vancouver had two defensemen getting Norris votes and a Vezina finalist. How is Ryan Kesler more valuable than Henrik Zetterberg in that situation? Probably becaue the voters forgot he played center and didn't realize that Datsyuk missed part of the season; he finished third among LW in all-star voting behind Sedin and Ovechkin, but did not receive a single vote at center despite playing the entire season at center.

And you say Ovechkin didn't belong near the Hart. Did Kesler belong 8th in Hart voting, 5th among skaters, and 2nd among Canucks? H.Sedin was 10th, 6th, and 3rd, respectively. Three Canucks in the top ten? Really? Ovechkin and Zetterberg singlehandedly carrying successful teams is less valuable than Vancouver's #3 forward?

EDIT: This isn't to say Kesler or the Sedins didn't have a great year. He did. But applying logic, a team with three elite forwards, three all-star defensemen, and an elite goaltender should be less likely to see one of their guys win than a team that does nearly as well with one elite forward and one elite defenseman (or just one elite forward). Obviously I've discounted players who missed significant portions of the season. But laying it out there, it's pretty clear that you can't rank all of Vancouver's best players as "more valuable" than just about everyone in the league. Especially when there were a lot of teams that did almost as well.


Last edited by pdd: 11-18-2012 at 10:29 PM.
pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2012, 10:19 PM
  #23
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyFan View Post
Because the Hart is given to a person that carries his team more than any other player. You could argue Daniel and Henrik both had a near exact positive impact for the Nucks that year, arguably Kesler even belongs in that discussion, thus non of the 3 should have got as many votes as they did. I'm not keen on Zetterberg getting honorary mention because Lidstrom belongs in that discussion as much as Zetterberg. Personally in the 10-11 season, I'd probably would have gave the Hart to Price, Lundqvist, Rinne, or the winner Perry.
Rinne is my winner for the Hart and Vezina that year, with Z and Ovy as the runners-up for Hart. I put Perry a little lower because although he does have the big gap, Selanne had as many points as Zetterberg (80), and Getzlaf was right behind in an injury-shortened year (76 in 67) with Ryan on their tail (71). That's a lot more offensive support than Z or Ovy had. And Hiller's season was spectacular, far better than the mediocre years of Howard and Neuvirth.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2012, 10:22 PM
  #24
MrFunnyWobbl
Why?
 
MrFunnyWobbl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unlocated
Country: Umm al-Qaiwan
Posts: 19,786
vCash: 100
Send a message via AIM to MrFunnyWobbl
The one from planet russia.

MrFunnyWobbl is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2012, 10:23 PM
  #25
nowhereman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,747
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
And you say Ovechkin didn't belong near the Hart. Did Kesler belong 8th in Hart voting, 5th among skaters, and 2nd among Canucks? H.Sedin was 10th, 6th, and 3rd, respectively. Three Canucks in the top ten? Really? Ovechkin and Zetterberg singlehandedly carrying successful teams is less valuable than Vancouver's #3 forward?
Ovechkin had a very disappointing season, finishing with the lowest point totals he'd had in his career (up until that point) and struggling on his team's side of center ice. He did not "carry his team on his back", which is why he didn't receive a single top three vote. It would have been poor optics to give a one-dimensional winger, having the worst year of his career, a top three finish in Hart voting. Washington was lucky they played in a weak division and an easier than usual Eastern Conference.

Zetterberg definitely deserved a place higher up the Hart rankings than OV, as did Price, Rinne, Perry, Thomas, Fleury and, yes, even Daniel Sedin. The reason Z didn't earn that high of a spot was because of his offense. A 24 point gap between him and Daniel Sedin is hard to make up with intangibles.

nowhereman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:12 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.