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Old
11-18-2012, 10:45 PM
  #201
seanlinden
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Originally Posted by ginner classic View Post
That's the nice thing about real life as opposed to weirdo fantasy land. At some point the GM of the Canucks will make a real trade with another GM and we can see what the market really was. Until then Leaf fans can continue to crap themselves over the potential for Burke to have to either pay up big or come out with blustering support for his goalie of the future while *****ing about what another GM paid for a canuck goalie.
Sounds a lot like white noise... we're going back and forth here on what the Leafs would have to give up which is completely meaningless without the context of what other teams would be prepared to give up, and none of their fans are even interested enough to post about it.

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11-18-2012, 10:46 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Yeah, if we were a completely shortsighted team with no long term outlook.

Vancouver fans need to realize that Toronto isn't going to pay the premium valuation that Vancouver fans would for immidiate results. The focus has to be long term.

If they want a team that's going to focus on the immidiate results, they'd be best off looking towards a better team that is just a goaltender away from being a great team.... maybe a team like Tampa Bay... oh wait, they decided they want no part of his deal.



Yet you're valuing Schneider more than Luongo.
You'd have to be some kind of dumb to not know schneider has more trade value than Lou and a lot more than reimer. If reimer was schneider calibre your gm would not be discussing goalie upgrades. If reimer was even an average starter burke would not even be looking for a goalie.

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11-18-2012, 10:48 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
I'm sure any offers for Luongo from the Panters and Dale Tallon was just as low with the types of players as Burke has offered. I agree to the Canucks Luongo has value, however for other teams taking on his contract they don't see it and why they won't give Gillis an A+ package for him.
If we're going to be disappointed, we'd rather at least one party from our side (Luongo) be happy with the result then no one. If it's being shafted by Burke, or shafted by Tallon, most Canucks fans value Luongo so much, we'd rather put his needs first, not get a marginally better package.

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11-18-2012, 10:49 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
No controversy in Toronto. It's Reimer's job to lose, and there isn't a shortage of games. His value will go up or down based on how he plays.
Having two mediocre goalies is a goalie controversy.

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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
I agree to the Canucks Luongo has value, however for other teams taking on his contract they don't see it and why they won't give Gillis an A+ package for him.
What's an A+ package? I'm sure most would agree that Nash didn't receive an "A+ package". A Leafs equivalent of that would be perfectly acceptable.

When packages start with #4Cs and #6 dman + B prospects the goalie Leafs should be targeting are Niemi/Crawford.

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11-18-2012, 10:49 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Sounds a lot like white noise... we're going back and forth here on what the Leafs would have to give up which is completely meaningless without the context of what other teams would be prepared to give up, and none of their fans are even interested enough to post about it.
That's the thing you may not grasp...you actually cannot negotiate a trade. You are a hockey fan posting on the internet. Same as everyone here. Just fans. No need to strike any deals. :-)

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11-18-2012, 10:53 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
Having two mediocre goalies is a goalie controversy.


What's an A+ package? I'm sure most would agree that Nash didn't receive an "A+ package". A Leafs equivalent of that would be perfectly acceptable.

When packages start with #4Cs and #6 dman + B prospects the goalie Leafs should be targeting are Niemi/Crawford.
Mediocre means average no? I think you are giving them far too much credit. They were 28th last year and teams 29 and 30 just added goalies.

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11-18-2012, 10:57 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
The idea of acquiring Luongo is as shortsighted as any other acquisitions. Toronto isn't the free agent Mecca that other high income teams, say New York, Detroit...even Vancouver (hey we're top 10). Not to fault goaltending, but this has been an evident hole since well before Burke, and not being addressed...well there are several UFA players that could fly the coop.

Yes, the same can be said of filling a top line centre role, but there aren't many of those being shopped at the moment.

We're not asking for a premium, merely what we see as market value for a star player. You can't use Phaneuf's trade to evaluate how Luongo will be traded for: Sutter was fired shortly after, and we are in no hurry to move Luongo.

There seems to be a common thought among Leafs fans that we Canucks fans get around, in a group, and think up ways to attempt to rip off Toronto in this thread. We don't, we just don't want to give a certified star player up for scraps.

Sarcasm gets you no where in this thread, but Chicago, potentially Edmonton and Columbus, teams like San Jose, Philadelphia or Washington (with bad news out of Europe about their starters staying there), and yes, even Tampa (in the event of Lindback/Gerber not being good enough), are all other destinations we're happy with. I should note that it is a "cost of Luongo" thread, not a "cost of Luongo to the Leafs thread", and yet I don't see posters from the other teams fan bases in here as often as Leafs fans.



And it cuts both ways. You can hype up Reimer over his short term stats, we do it with Schneider and it's really inflating his value or play. You've also said that Toronto shouldn't be looking exclusively short term: Schneider hits that nail on the head.

Luongo has, according to one of your peers, "almost negative value", based, I can only assume, on his contract. Schneider has the highest save percentage of any goalie after as many games, and has 0 of the contract problems. Consensus is he has more value around these boards, even if it lines up with that "potential over proven" philosophy I hate.
The idea of acquiring Luongo is extremely shortsighted, especially if it comes at some of the ridiculous prices proposed here. He's 33 years old and comes with a contract that requires him to be our #1 for the long run no matter how quickly he regresses. We've got a 24 year old goaltender who could potentially be our star goaltender of the future, and trading for Luongo ensures that will never happen. It's one thing to make that move if you don't give up a substantial portion of the future that allows you to improve the team around him, but when we start combining things like Kadri, Colborne, Biggs and a 1st, is when it just makes no sense.

There is no sarcasm here. There's a reason each one of those teams aren't interested. Yeah, you can wait until one of those teams becomes interested (and Luongo's value drops as he gets older, distances himself from the time when he was the undisputed #1), and pray that the market for a guy like Luongo picks up enough to counter that -- not very good asset management.

Yeah, I hype up Reimer, you hype up Schneider. At the end of the day it's all the same. One's got great numbers, the other's younger and got #1 experience. So put the shoe on the other foot. If you're moving Luongo to give the reins to Cory Schneider with 68 games of NHL experience and minimal time as an actual #1, why should Toronto be trading for Luongo to block their young goaltender?

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Old
11-18-2012, 10:58 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by ginner classic View Post
You'd have to be some kind of dumb to not know schneider has more trade value than Lou and a lot more than reimer. If reimer was schneider calibre your gm would not be discussing goalie upgrades. If reimer was even an average starter burke would not even be looking for a goalie.
Yet, Schneider isn't even a starter. Don't get me wrong, Schneider's numbers are great, but it's a lot easier to achieve great numbers when you're playing most of your games against a weaker subset of the opposition.

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11-18-2012, 10:58 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
What's an A+ package? I'm sure most would agree that Nash didn't receive an "A+ package". A Leafs equivalent of that would be perfectly acceptable.

When packages start with #4Cs and #6 dman + B prospects the goalie Leafs should be targeting are Niemi/Crawford.
An A+ package would be something what Scott Howson was asking in exchange for Rick Nash. However because he asked for a trade everyone knew he wasn't getting it, even if he waited as long as possible to trade him.

Now Luongo has also asked for a trade and even said how it's Corey Schneider's team, so in my opinion the same rule applies.

As for trade packages starting with #4 Centre's and #6 Defensman, obviously those GM's want to give up as little as possible and if the shoe was on the other foot and Mike Gillis was getting Luongo for the first time, I'm sure the Canuck fans wouldn't want to give up their 1st round pick or top prospects.

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11-18-2012, 10:59 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Yet, Schneider isn't even a starter.
I thought Luongo lost the starting job?

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11-18-2012, 11:00 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
As for trade packages starting with #4 Centre's and #6 Defensman, obviously those GM's want to give up as little as possible and if the shoe was on the other foot and Mike Gillis was getting Luongo for the first time, I'm sure the Canuck fans wouldn't want to give up their 1st round pick or top prospects.
Not true at all.

If G was the Nucks biggest need Canucks fans answered and we would give up a lot.

I'd do Edler+. Most would do 1st + any prospect not named Kassian.

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11-18-2012, 11:01 PM
  #212
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I thought Luongo lost the starting job?
He did. That doesn't mean Schneider has proven himself in that role.

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11-18-2012, 11:03 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
He did. That doesn't mean Schneider has proven himself in that role.
So Vancouver has a starter with no starting experience and a backup who's been an elite starter his entire career. Hmm....

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11-18-2012, 11:03 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
He did. That doesn't mean Schneider has proven himself in that role.
So the Canucks have no capable starter?

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11-18-2012, 11:05 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
The idea of acquiring Luongo is extremely shortsighted, especially if it comes at some of the ridiculous prices proposed here. He's 33 years old and comes with a contract that requires him to be our #1 for the long run no matter how quickly he regresses. We've got a 24 year old goaltender who could potentially be our star goaltender of the future, and trading for Luongo ensures that will never happen. It's one thing to make that move if you don't give up a substantial portion of the future that allows you to improve the team around him, but when we start combining things like Kadri, Colborne, Biggs and a 1st, is when it just makes no sense.

There is no sarcasm here. There's a reason each one of those teams aren't interested. Yeah, you can wait until one of those teams becomes interested (and Luongo's value drops as he gets older, distances himself from the time when he was the undisputed #1), and pray that the market for a guy like Luongo picks up enough to counter that -- not very good asset management.

Yeah, I hype up Reimer, you hype up Schneider. At the end of the day it's all the same. One's got great numbers, the other's younger and got #1 experience. So put the shoe on the other foot. If you're moving Luongo to give the reins to Cory Schneider with 68 games of NHL experience and minimal time as an actual #1, why should Toronto be trading for Luongo to block their young goaltender?
Kadri, Colborne, Biggs and a 1st isn't the package most of us are looking for, I know for what I'd want, it's far less...futures oriented.

The Tampa comment was definitely sarcasm. Your point remains, but for a return that doesn't help us, and in the case of taking salary dumps in Lombardi and Connolly for other pieces that don't help us...well lets just say a mildly interested team would match.

Also, no season has really screwed up people's perception of how a season plays out. There would already be losing teams at this stage, and it's not obscene to think that one or two are due to goaltending not being sufficient.

Mostly, and don't take this as a slight, but Reimer has no where near the talent, or even the hype, that Schneider has had his whole career (from College on) that has followed him, outside of Toronto anyway. Since he was drafted, Schneider has been slotted as a top prospect, then a top goalie. Reimer could very well surprised me, but it's like comparing Reimer to Markstrom, or Rask to Reimer. He could be very good, but Rask and Schneider, and the way things have played out, Markstrom say 3-4 years from now, are all much, much better and much, much more is expected from them.

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11-18-2012, 11:09 PM
  #216
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What's an A+ package? I'm sure most would agree that Nash didn't receive an "A+ package". A Leafs equivalent of that would be perfectly acceptable.
I forgot to mention that the 2012 Draft Damien Cox of the Toronto Star reported that Mike Gillis asked Brian Burke for Jake Gardiner, Matt Frattin, Tyler Bozak and a 1st round pick. In my opinion that's asking for way to much for Luongo based on the lenght of his contract and why Maple Leafs fans are giving trade offers Canucks fans don't like.

http://thestar.blogs.com/thespin/201...eculation.html

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At the draft, reports indicated Vancouver asked for centre Tyler Bozak, defenceman Jake Gardiner, a first round pick and winger Matt Frattin in exchange for the 33-year-old Luongo. The Leafs had no interest in paying that kind of price, largely because there is no significant market for the services of the veteran goaltender.

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11-18-2012, 11:13 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
He did. That doesn't mean Schneider has proven himself in that role.


It's not often morons point out the gaps in their own logic.

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11-18-2012, 11:13 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
I forgot to mention that the 2012 Draft Damien Cox of the Toronto Star reported that Mike Gillis asked Brian Burke for Jake Gardiner, Matt Frattin, Tyler Bozak and a 1st round pick. In my opinion that's asking for way to much for Luongo based on the lenght of his contract and why Maple Leafs fans are giving trade offers Canucks fans don't like.

http://thestar.blogs.com/thespin/201...eculation.html
I don't think any of us expect that. I doubt Gillis does either. We do expect some quality assets to be involved, if Toronto is serious about acquiring Luongo.

What that is varies among Canucks fans, but there has been a lot of interlap between individuals on agreeing on possible deals.

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11-18-2012, 11:13 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
I forgot to mention that the 2012 Draft Damien Cox of the Toronto Star reported that Mike Gillis asked Brian Burke for Jake Gardiner, Matt Frattin, Tyler Bozak and a 1st round pick.
So Rielly, Gardiner, Frattin and Bozak are an "A+ package".

The majority of value being Rielly + Gardiner and Bozak/Frattin being the throw ins. Thanks for clearing that up.

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11-18-2012, 11:14 PM
  #220
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Yeah, I hype up Reimer, you hype up Schneider. At the end of the day it's all the same. One's got great numbers, the other's younger and got #1 experience. So put the shoe on the other foot. If you're moving Luongo to give the reins to Cory Schneider with 68 games of NHL experience and minimal time as an actual #1, why should Toronto be trading for Luongo to block their young goaltender?
I have thought the same thing. Yes Corey Schneider might have better numbers right now, however he still has not played a full season as a #1 Goalie. If he can put up those same numbers playing more games then that's great for him and the Canucks.

At least James Reimer played games as a #1 Goalie from Janurary 1, 2011 to October 22, 2011 which was the night he got injured against Montreal and wasn't the same since, so hopefully that's now behind him.

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11-18-2012, 11:15 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
I forgot to mention that the 2012 Draft Damien Cox of the Toronto Star reported that Mike Gillis asked Brian Burke for Jake Gardiner, Matt Frattin, Tyler Bozak and a 1st round pick. In my opinion that's asking for way to much for Luongo based on the lenght of his contract and why Maple Leafs fans are giving trade offers Canucks fans don't like.

http://thestar.blogs.com/thespin/201...eculation.html
I agree that's a high asking price, but does anyone actually take Damien Cox word on anything? I mean as someone unconnected to the Leafs, he seems like that drunk guy at the bar, a "our team is the best, the stats don't mean anything, I'm right everyones wrong" kind of guy.

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11-18-2012, 11:16 PM
  #222
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So Rielly, Gardiner, Frattin and Bozak are an "A+ package".

The majority of value being Rielly + Gardiner and Bozak/Frattin being the throw ins. Thanks for clearing that up.
From the Leafs prospective it is when you consider giving up the 5th overall pick and how well Jake Gardiner played during his rookie season.

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11-18-2012, 11:16 PM
  #223
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I have thought the same thing. Yes Corey Schneider might have better numbers right now, however he still has not played a full season as a #1 Goalie. If he can put up those same numbers playing more games then that's great for him and the Canucks.

At least James Reimer played for games as a #1 Goalie from Janurary 1, 2011 to October 22, 2011 which was the night he got injured against Montreal and wasn't the same since, so hopefully that's now behind him.
Hopefully, but if Burke felt that way I don't think we'd have as much speculation on either side as we've had, and not just from fans.

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11-18-2012, 11:18 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
So Rielly, Gardiner, Frattin and Bozak are an "A+ package".

The majority of value being Rielly + Gardiner and Bozak/Frattin being the throw ins. Thanks for clearing that up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
From the Leafs prospective it is when you consider giving up the 5th overall pick and how well Jake Gardiner played during his rookie season.
Rielly and Gardiner makes our requests seem down right reasonable. Shall we continue to play nice, or is the new asking price for Canucks fans this package? Yes, let's play nice.

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11-18-2012, 11:32 PM
  #225
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Roberto Luongo
1st in 2014


1st in 2014
Joffrey Lupul [denpending on circumstances]
Joe Colbourne
Matthew Lombardi

I still think this is the best middle ground I've seen... I'm biased for this proposal of course.


Last edited by marty111: 11-18-2012 at 11:39 PM.
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