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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Has Ed Snider had enough?

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Old
11-18-2012, 04:26 PM
  #101
billybudd
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
How anyone can suggest that baffles me. (I know you didn't, just piggybacking your post.)

There is ever increasing evidence that the owners are indeed fracturing, and now we have clearest perspective that the players have *already* gotten more than they were "supposed" to.

Fehr is anything but an idiot - he's accomplishing what was supposed to be impossible - he's winning.
Depends how one defines "winning". If one defines "winning" as "maximizing the dollars that go to the people you represent," Fehr has failed miserably.

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11-18-2012, 04:29 PM
  #102
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Shannon on NHL: Little optimism for Monday

Quote:
And then there were the events of this past week:
- Tuesday’s conversation between Fehr and Bettman, when the two-week moratorium was first introduced.
- Thursday’s memo from the members of the NHL negotiating committee (Murray Edwards, Jeremy Jacobs, Craig Leipold, Ted Leonsis) outlining the frustrations of negotiating against Fehr and supporting the tactics of Bettman and Daly.
- Saturday’s story out of Philadelphia that Ed Snider was shifting his allegiance from Bettman, that Mr. Snider vehemently denied.
All tasty morsels, but hardly good, quality bargaining
Isn't Snider on the negotiating committee?

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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
That link seems to be broken; I'm interested to see when Brooks posted his article.

Try it now. The embedding seemed to mess things up.

It's today's edition.

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Old
11-18-2012, 04:38 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
How long until the players will earn less on the new proposals than they would have on the first?
If you mean the one from mid-october, that point has already passed for just about everybody (the one exception -might- be for guys with long-term deals in which a huge percentage comes in the form of bonuses).

The crazy first one? Different for everyone. For Teemu Selanne, probably as soon as December's games are canceled. For Alex Ovechkin, the answer would be something like 3 years.

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11-18-2012, 04:47 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Try it now. The embedding seemed to mess things up.

It's today's edition.
Interesting. I wouldn't put it past Timmy to just grab Brooks' info and and run it. So either that happened or Brooks and Timmy have heard the same thing from two possibly different sources; if that's the case, you know what they say regarding the presence of smoke correlating with the possible existence of fire.

Edit: Never mind, I completely misread one article in a mind-blowing way.

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11-18-2012, 06:31 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
... and your perfectly entitled to believe whatever you wanna believe. Obviously a great many others here disagree, myself included. Where theres smoke theres fire. Having watched Fast Eddies act for over 40yrs, seen this sort of performance from him on numerous occasions, then Im sure you wont mind if I dismiss your opinion as being naive.
I'm sure every owner and player "wants to get a deal done" but do you think Snider likes 1 of the delinked offers that Fehr has proposed and the league should take it?

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11-18-2012, 06:55 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by HockeyCrazed101 View Post
Not really.
Yes, really.

You're guessing, same as everyone else.

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11-18-2012, 07:10 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by JAX View Post
I'm sure every owner and player "wants to get a deal done" but do you think Snider likes 1 of the delinked offers that Fehr has proposed and the league should take it?
... Id be shocked if he did. According to the rumour mills it was Flyers senior management upon Sniders orders who framed the latest proposals & spurred on this latest round of negotiations before the league decided to disengage.

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11-18-2012, 07:44 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by madhi19 View Post
Contract law is a bit murky a direct majority of the BoG could likely vote to break that clause and pay whatever severance package Gary want to go quietly. As I see it if they really want to fire him they will fire him. Gary will likely sue because he a lawyer and that what they do and the NHL will settle.
A simple majority is not enough to amend a clause of the NHL Constitution. Unanimous consent is needed to make an amendment during any meeting. Three-fourths consent is needed if the meeting is for the purpose of discussing an amendment.

If a simple majority decided tomorrow that they wanted to unseat Gary Bettman, I don't see any avenue for them to do so. At minimum it appears a two-thirds majority is needed, per Article VII.


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11-18-2012, 08:01 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Yes, really.

You're guessing, same as everyone else.
Why don't you explain to me what you think speculation is. Because one poster said the article in the Philly paper was speculation. There is incomplete evidence proposed in that article to suggest that its contents are wholly or partially truth. That makes it a speculative article. I guess we can keep going on saying that the trail of opinions is a speculation of a speculation of a speculation of a speculation of a speculation, etc. That's utterly ridiculous that you want to try to dumb down the debate to that degree. Not to mention that the truth of the article is directly combating with an outright denial by the person who the article is about. The very nature of Snider's denial would suggest that the article can't be anything more than speculative. You have the commentary of an article using unidentified sources versus a direct denial by Snider about the contents of the article. Given the facts laid out, saying that an article which was denied to have truth by Snider is speculative is not a speculation because Snider's denial would serve as complete evidence to the contrary of the article.

Doesn't mean we should trust it but Snider's word holds the highest importance when arguing the speculative nature of the article about him. I feel like I've repeated myself several times within this single response but I just can't fathom how you don't understand or perhaps why you pretend to not understand for the sake of nitpicking.

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11-18-2012, 09:56 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
This is a signature move of the Flyers organization. Unnamed source in the org speaks to the press, word gets out, organization makes their point, then denies it.
Yup, and it's something I really hate. You can't trust them at all but I think in this instance he had someone "leak" the info and then immediately denied it so he wouldn't get fined.

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11-18-2012, 10:58 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Shannon on NHL: Little optimism for Monday

Isn't Snider on the negotiating committee?

Quote:
And then there were the events of this past week:
- Tuesday’s conversation between Fehr and Bettman, when the two-week moratorium was first introduced.
- Thursday’s memo from the members of the NHL negotiating committee (Murray Edwards, Jeremy Jacobs, Craig Leipold, Ted Leonsis) outlining the frustrations of negotiating against Fehr and supporting the tactics of Bettman and Daly.
- Saturday’s story out of Philadelphia that Ed Snider was shifting his allegiance from Bettman, that Mr. Snider vehemently denied.
All tasty morsels, but hardly good, quality bargaining

Anyone??

Isn't Snider a member of the negotiating committee? I believe there are five BOG and Bettman, Daly and Batterman. Does this mean only the four named signed that memo?

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11-18-2012, 11:30 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_...E93owdlNyiostL

Brooks also reported today:

If the season is canceled, the Maple Leafs will lose approximately $100 million, the Rangers at least $50 million and the Canadiens somewhat less than that.
Yet not one of these ownership groups is represented on the NHL negotiating committee. And while Toronto GM Brian Burke is on the committee, we’re told the league’s agenda is being plotted all but exclusively by Canceler-in-Chief Gary Bettman and Boston owner Jeremy Jacobs, the hawkish chairman of the Board of Governors.

Indeed, according to one trustworthy individual who attended the negotiating session in New York on Nov. 9, Calgary owner Murray Edwards was at one point silenced by Bettman just a moment after Jacobs leaned over and whispered into the commissioner’s ear.
I guess there's some smoke. We'll see if there's a fire.
That's "lose" as in "not make," I assume?

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11-19-2012, 12:07 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
That's "lose" as in "not make," I assume?
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's what he should have said. I think those numbers reflect gate revenue for those teams.

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11-19-2012, 12:22 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by M A K A V E L I View Post
Easy solution for the rest of the 22 owners: Kick these 8 out of the league, get rid of Bettman, get a deal done without these morons holding up negotiations, give these 8 one week after a new deal is signed to join in. Otherwise, they can sit and watch hockey at home.
easy answer, that's 8 lawsuits against the NHL.

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11-19-2012, 12:35 AM
  #115
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Owners complaining of frustrations with Fehr reminds of the description of negotiations with Bettman as one long trip to the dentist. Must make for a charming room.

Perhaps some owners are concerned about their image with fans after the lockout like Snider, Melnyk, and i wouldve thought Leonsis.

Whats the math i wonder for how much a team like Philly can lose before it becomes better to just increase revenue sharing.

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11-19-2012, 12:53 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
Yup, and it's something I really hate. You can't trust them at all but I think in this instance he had someone "leak" the info and then immediately denied it so he wouldn't get fined.
The timing is interesting too; right after Giroux reportedly gets hurt. There's no way that Snider, who seems hell-bent on seeing one more Cup, is pleased to see his core players racking up injuries overseas.

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11-19-2012, 01:19 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
That's "lose" as in "not make," I assume?

Sounds like he's talking about operating income.

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11-19-2012, 07:33 AM
  #118
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I hope that the 8 teams supporting the lockout, who are mainly small-market and/or non-traditional markets, die because of the lockout they support. When those teams fold up, there will be no 8 team bulwark preventing the lockout from ending. Obviously, Phoenix will always remain because Bettman owns it, but unless he alters the CBA such that only 1 team/vote is needed to disapprove a new CBA, it should be fine.

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11-19-2012, 08:40 AM
  #119
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Snider is one of the more respected owners in the league. Let's hope his discontent with the lockout leads to a deal getting done soon.

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11-19-2012, 09:24 AM
  #120
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Those of you guys who are sending letters to governors, I applaude what you're doing but it won't accomplish anything. They already know how we're pissed with words, only actions in terms of your wallet will make a difference now.

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Going to have to take a hard line with them to make any difference. Lock the league out for a year. Don't watch. Don't buy. Don't subscribe. If the fans, which supposedly matter more to the NHL than many leagues, were organized and were able to stick to a list of demands, it could actually be the fans that win this. Unfortunately, fan bases are notoriously unable to do such things and end up being sheep waiting to be led around by a bunch of rich people.

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11-19-2012, 10:06 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
I hope that the 8 teams supporting the lockout, who are mainly small-market and/or non-traditional markets, die because of the lockout they support. When those teams fold up, there will be no 8 team bulwark preventing the lockout from ending. Obviously, Phoenix will always remain because Bettman owns it, but unless he alters the CBA such that only 1 team/vote is needed to disapprove a new CBA, it should be fine.
We don't know which teams are actually supporting the lockout. We don't know for sure if they are small market teams mainly, we don't even know if there are only truly 8 teams blocking a deal from happening or being presented. All of that is speculation. Perhaps the only thing we can say with near certainty regarding the dynamics among owners is that Jacobs is definitely a hardliner who is supporting the lockout completely.

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11-19-2012, 10:39 AM
  #122
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Even if NBC gets a free season somewhere down the road, the $200-million advance is coming out of someone's pocket, and it sounds like Snyder's..
They would get a free season at the end of the deal.

Though nobody would like the idea of paying $200m this season for "Nothing", the propspect of having a "free year" at the end of the deal when fan apathy and anger have diminished might not be all that bad when you consider the alternative of paying full price for this season to air a compressed schedule to a dis-enchanted fan base.

I think if NBC / Comcast /Snyder really had a voice in this they would have made their feelings known before the Winter Classic was cancelled.

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11-19-2012, 11:25 AM
  #123
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http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/spo...179909441.html

An interview with Bettman.

An excerpt:

"FP: There was a report out of Philadelphia on Saturday that says you are losing the support of the owners.

GB: It was a fabrication. Ed Snider is the one who told me about the article when he found out about it and he was terribly upset. He's in Europe and it was his idea to put out a statement. Anyone who doubts the resolve of ownership is either uninformed or (being) intentionally misleading
."

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11-19-2012, 11:33 AM
  #124
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They would get a free season at the end of the deal.... Though nobody would like the idea of paying $200m this season for "Nothing", the propspect of having a "free year" at the end of the deal when fan apathy and anger have diminished might not be all that bad when you consider the alternative of paying full price for this season to air a compressed schedule to a dis-enchanted fan base.... I think if NBC / Comcast /Snyder really had a voice in this they would have made their feelings known before the Winter Classic was cancelled.
Of course I dont know the exact details of the NHL's contract with NBC, however, one would think that in addition to a clause whereby if an entire season is lost to a labour disruption (or an act of God; like if a Meteor hit the earth & caused a temporary disruption), they'd have another whereby the $200M per annum fee would be pro-rated. If they "lose" say 40 games in 2011-12, NBC receives those games in 2022-23. If this thing goes into 2013-12, I would just have to assume that NBC would have an "out" altogether as theres just no way they'd be willing to move forward, while demanding the return of their $200M payment for the 2011-12 season for non-performance. An embarrassment & hit to the leagues pretensions, prestige, integrity & pocketbooks of epic proportions.

Another troubling issue which surely must be of grave concern to both the NHL & NBC (and to a somewhat lesser extent with regional broadcasters including the CBC, TSN & Sportsnet etc) is the damage being done to their sponsors & advertisers, who in allocating tens of millions of dollars in media buys, signage and sponsorships, collateral marketing campaigns targeting both consumer and trade audiences, suite leases, the whole Shebang really, well, those contracts are now skating on thin ice. Companies plan 12mnths, 24, 48, 72 + months in advance in some cases, fully integrated campaigns put together, funds allocated. All dressed up with no place to go. Do they just "hang-in there" hoping this ends sooner rather than later or do they start looking for new dates? Alternative sports, events, programs & platforms.

Clearly the NHL is an unreliable partner, not to mention reputational concerns in moving forward, as in who wants their name associated with such an enterprise when clearly coming out of the lockout your looking at an uphill climb, lost eyeballs & fans, an environment of acrimony that will take several seasons of stability to repair, and who needs their good name associated with that?. And even if you did just go ahead, by the time the NHL & a great number of the franchises crawl out of the ditch theyve dug for themselves, it'll be 2017, time for a new CBA. Based on past performance & history, very good chance of yet another lockout or work stoppage. If your a major sponsor/advertiser, your already looking at other vehicles, sports/entertainment properties, new media platforms etc etc etc, quite possibly never returning to the NHL fold.


Last edited by Killion: 11-19-2012 at 11:41 AM.
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Old
11-19-2012, 01:58 PM
  #125
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^^^

Yeah, something doesn't add up here. The delay and outright cancellation, hoops sponsors and partners have to jump through? Management at those companies can change quickly, and the reallocation or cuts to ad spending can happen very quickly.

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