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Rank by Highest Peak: Iginla vs Thornton vs Alfredson vs Elias

View Poll Results: Who had the highest career peak?
Jarome Iginla 39 18.75%
Joe Thornton 159 76.44%
Daniel Alfredsson 6 2.88%
Patrik Elias 4 1.92%
Voters: 208. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-18-2012, 10:36 PM
  #76
Sky04
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Bure had 59 goals, but only 92 points in 82. Elias had 40 goals and 96 points, also in 82. The defensive difference between the two makes up the "goal gap" easily. Forsberg posted 89 points in 73 games, which is only marginally higher PPG than Elias. But Forsberg only scored 27 goals, and defensively Elias was the better player. I rank Elias as the 4th-best forward that season, behind Lemieux (76 in 43 at age 35 with a bad back) Jagr, and Sakic.
No it doesn't, Bure was superior. The difference in 19 goals is the difference between Stamkos and James Neal.

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11-18-2012, 10:50 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by sky04 View Post
No it doesn't, Bure was superior. The difference in 19 goals is the difference between Stamkos and James Neal.
Stamkos had 97 points. James Neal had 81. So there's a 16-point difference there, when the two were 20 goals apart. Meaning Neal led Stamkos by 4 assists. Elias led Bure by 23 assists. Elias also led his team in scoring and was third in the league, while Neal was second on his line to Malkin, who had 28 more points.

Finally, Elias had more points than Bure, while Stamkos had more points than Neal.

You are correct in that the "goal gap" is similar. You are not correct about what it says for the player quality.

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11-18-2012, 11:38 PM
  #78
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Too bad each missed a year of peak in 2004, it'd have solidified even more of what we think of them now. I know Thornton was an offensive beast, but I'm surprised a bit that more people didn't pick Iginla.

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11-19-2012, 12:35 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by jbeck5 View Post
Yup. Elias is good too, but not as good offensively. Don't forget alfredsson played for jacques martin most of his career so it's not like only elias played under defensive coaches. Yet elias only hit a point a game 3 times. alfredsson? 8 times.

This coming from someone who got an elias jersey before he got an alfredsson jersey.
Why do you keep bringing up career numbers? This is peak vs peak.

Elias in 2000-2001 > Alfredsson in 2005-2006

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11-19-2012, 01:30 AM
  #80
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Elias is definitely better than Alfredsson. During his prime, Elias played with Sykora and Arnott. Yes, both of them are good players, but they aren't close compared to Spezza (career ppg player) and Heatley (who is 9 pts off being a career ppg). I mean Elias made an immobile Petr Sykora score 21 goals and he finished with 78 pts in 77 games playing on a line with Zubrus and Sykora. He was also a focal point on the best PK in NHL history. Oh yeah, he also had the highest Qualcomp of any Devils forward

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11-19-2012, 01:35 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by SMantzas View Post
Elias is definitely better than Alfredsson. During his prime, Elias played with Sykora and Arnott. Yes, both of them are good players, but they aren't close compared to Spezza (career ppg player) and Heatley (who is 9 pts off being a career ppg). I mean Elias made an immobile Petr Sykora score 21 goals and he finished with 78 pts in 77 games playing on a line with Zubrus and Sykora. He was also a focal point on the best PK in NHL history. Oh yeah, he also had the highest Qualcomp of any Devils forward
I loved that Sykora Elias Zubrus line. Dubbed the 'millenium line' if I remember correctly. They were amazing against many teams.

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11-19-2012, 03:21 AM
  #82
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Thornton by a mile. At his peak he was one of the best players of the last 20 years.

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11-19-2012, 05:02 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Stamkos had 97 points. James Neal had 81. So there's a 16-point difference there, when the two were 20 goals apart. Meaning Neal led Stamkos by 4 assists. Elias led Bure by 23 assists. Elias also led his team in scoring and was third in the league, while Neal was second on his line to Malkin, who had 28 more points.

Finally, Elias had more points than Bure, while Stamkos had more points than Neal.

You are correct in that the "goal gap" is similar. You are not correct about what it says for the player quality.
Pretty hard to get assist's when you finish with 33 and your next closest teammate has 37 points in total, that's a significant factor to be taken into account.

Elias's had 2 80 point scorers, a 60 point scorer and 4 50 point scorers for support. Bure scored 59 goals, 92 points on a team that saw 3 30 point guys aside from himself.

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11-19-2012, 05:54 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
Didn't you hear iginla took that season off too, only thing that could explain his dismal 67 points in 82 games in what should be excluded because it was so high scoring of a year.
If you watched that season, you'd know that

a) He had zero chemistry with Langkow and Amonte

b) The entire team played dump and chase under Sutter that year.

67 points was generous for the amount of offense that team created.

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11-19-2012, 06:13 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Walkingthroughforest View Post
If you watched that season, you'd know that

a) He had zero chemistry with Langkow and Amonte

b) The entire team played dump and chase under Sutter that year.

67 points was generous for the amount of offense that team created.
Well adjusted stats still give Thornton 29+92=121 points for that season.

Iginla's best season is 60+50=110

Not too big of a difference but i would still give Thornton a slight edge on best season. Add back-2-back +90 assists seasons he will take the win.

Not a massive margin but clear.

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11-19-2012, 08:01 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Security Guard Chang View Post
If all these players were 18 and i had a chance to pick any.

I'd pick Alfie 11/10 times.

It's hard to explain, but he is literally a GOD in Ottawa.

If he ever killed someone , and was on the run. I'd be the first harbor him in my house. As i am sure all sens fan would.
That would be stupid. With Alfredsson, Ottawa is cupless. Try a different player, there's a chance you would end up with a cup.

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11-19-2012, 08:09 AM
  #87
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Thornton
Iggy
Alfie
Elias

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11-19-2012, 10:47 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HavlatMach9 View Post
Too bad each missed a year of peak in 2004, it'd have solidified even more of what we think of them now. I know Thornton was an offensive beast, but I'm surprised a bit that more people didn't pick Iginla.
why iginla's peak no matter what years you use isn't close to any of thornton's peaks.

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11-19-2012, 11:25 AM
  #89
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Went with Iginla to be a hipster, although I don't think there's as much seperating him and Thornton as people are saying.

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11-19-2012, 01:16 PM
  #90
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Thornton
Iginla
Alffy
Ellias

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11-19-2012, 01:33 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkingthroughforest View Post
If you watched that season, you'd know that

a) He had zero chemistry with Langkow and Amonte

b) The entire team played dump and chase under Sutter that year.

67 points was generous for the amount of offense that team created.
Can you really argue for Iginla's lack of chemistry when Thornton was traded to a team with a completely different system, and had linemates that he never played with before?

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11-19-2012, 02:18 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
Can you really argue for Iginla's lack of chemistry when Thornton was traded to a team with a completely different system, and had linemates that he never played with before?
That's why they call it chemistry, right?

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11-19-2012, 07:52 PM
  #93
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That's why they call it chemistry, right?
It is not chemistry when it comes to thornton, just look at the revolving door of line mates he has had. Even if you just use the sharks he has seen the majority of seasons with marleau (2.5 seasons), heatley 1 season, setoguchi 1 season, cheechoo 2.5 seasons, ekman 1season, pavelski 1 season, thornton .5 season, bell 1 season (only player to not do good on thorntons wing).

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11-19-2012, 09:32 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by I Hate Jay Feaster View Post
That's why they call it chemistry, right?
Don't think you got my point. I don't see how one could use the "lack of chemistry" as a reason to pick Iginla over Thornton (which he did). If anything, it should be used as a reason to not pick Iginla. Thornton was traded partway through the season to a new system with new teammates. He developed chemistry with every player he's played with, and it's not his fault that Iginla couldn't do the same.

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11-19-2012, 10:43 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
Can you really argue for Iginla's lack of chemistry when Thornton was traded to a team with a completely different system, and had linemates that he never played with before?
Sure I can. The only player that had any chemistry with Iginla that year was Phanuef. And when your system does not allow zone entry, there's no question why no one produced big numbers on the 06 team. When Playfair came in the next year (and Tanguay), the system opened up and Iginla was allowed free range.

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11-19-2012, 10:54 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Walkingthroughforest View Post
Sure I can. The only player that had any chemistry with Iginla that year was Phanuef. And when your system does not allow zone entry, there's no question why no one produced big numbers on the 06 team. When Playfair came in the next year (and Tanguay), the system opened up and Iginla was allowed free range.
To be fair, Iginla is a pretty hard player to gel with, very few players in his career actually had chemistry when him on a line, including the national teams.

Iginla's been doing it himself his entire career, and his play style doesn't exactly require a great playmaker either.

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11-20-2012, 04:13 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
The only one thats not "great" all around is Thornton. Elias is easily the best defensive forward of the group and still put up 96 pts. He is easily probably the most underrated forward in the last 2 decades.
imo, alfredsson was better defensively than elias. not by a big margin, though.

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Originally Posted by TheUnseenHand View Post
Elias will never, ever get the recognition he deserves because of the team he played his entire career for. I'd be willing to bet that had he played in Ottawa and Alfie played in NJ, people would be wondering how you could ever put Alfredsson ahead of Elias.

I do agree that those two are 3 and 4 on this list, but IMO they are interchangeable. There is no obvious order for the two. That said:

Thornton
Iginla
Elias/Alfredsson (Being a Devils fan I put Elias' name first)
agree

imo, if elias had played for a more offensive minded team, he would have very good numbers and probably be considered a very likely HHOFer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AfroThunder396 View Post
96 points on the New Jersey Devils in the prime of the Dead Puck Era is a pretty friggin' high peak.
NJD were the highest scoring team in 2001, and 2nd highest scoring team in '99 and 2000.


scoring in 2001 was about the same as in last few seasons, and higher than in '08, '11 and '12.

http://www.quanthockey.com/TS/TS_GoalsPerGame.php

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11-20-2012, 10:06 AM
  #98
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By peak:

Thornton
Iginla
Alfredsson
Elias

In terms of career:

Thornton
Alfredsson/Elias/Iginla

I really think, career-wise, there's little to distinguish the bottom 3.

When it comes to Alfredsson, people like to bring up his Pizza line days. Indeed, he had impressive stats, and when it came to the playoffs, he led them in points and goals and was the only one of the 3 to show up in the Finals.

Heatley was clearly the biggest beneficiary given that his stats dropped even when playing with Thornton after being traded.

But before the Pizza line, he was Ottawa's 2nd line by himself for years.
1999-2000...57-21-37-59 (1.04)
2000-2001...68-24-46-70 (1.03)
2001-2002...78-37-34-71 (0.91)
2002-2003...78-27-51-78 (1.00)
2003-2004...77-32-48-80 (1.04)

This was with guys like Smolinski, White and Arvedson under Jacques Martin's defence-first system in the dead puck era.

Hossa played on the "1st line" in that he had Bonk as his centre. Spezza didn't emerge as a #1 centre until after Jacques Martin left.

Alfredsson has always been Ottawa's finest offensive catalyst, in that he can create offence with anyone he plays with. The big test for Kyle Turris will be creating offense without Daniel on his line.

I like Elias, but I never got the sense that he was as important to NJ as Alfredsson was to Ottawa. The stats with him in and out of the line-up are pretty mindboggling, if someone can dig them up.

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11-20-2012, 10:15 AM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
By peak:

Thornton
Iginla
Alfredsson
Elias

In terms of career:

Thornton
Alfredsson/Elias/Iginla

I really think, career-wise, there's little to distinguish the bottom 3.

When it comes to Alfredsson, people like to bring up his Pizza line days. Indeed, he had impressive stats, and when it came to the playoffs, he led them in points and goals and was the only one of the 3 to show up in the Finals.

Heatley was clearly the biggest beneficiary given that his stats dropped even when playing with Thornton after being traded.

But before the Pizza line, he was Ottawa's 2nd line by himself for years.
1999-2000...57-21-37-59 (1.04)
2000-2001...68-24-46-70 (1.03)
2001-2002...78-37-34-71 (0.91)
2002-2003...78-27-51-78 (1.00)
2003-2004...77-32-48-80 (1.04)

This was with guys like Smolinski, White and Arvedson under Jacques Martin's defence-first system in the dead puck era.

Hossa played on the "1st line" in that he had Bonk as his centre. Spezza didn't emerge as a #1 centre until after Jacques Martin left.

Alfredsson has always been Ottawa's finest offensive catalyst, in that he can create offence with anyone he plays with. The big test for Kyle Turris will be creating offense without Daniel on his line.

I like Elias, but I never got the sense that he was as important to NJ as Alfredsson was to Ottawa. The stats with him in and out of the line-up are pretty mindboggling, if someone can dig them up.
heatley's drop in points and goals, was more to do with system then it did with heatley's game not working with thornton.

heatley became more of a complete player on thorntons wing, because at that point in time thorntons line was turning from a pure scoring 1st line, to a shut down scoring line.

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11-20-2012, 10:16 AM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
heatley's drop in points and goals, was more to do with system then it did with heatley's game not working with thornton.

heatley became more of a complete player on thorntons wing, because at that point in time thorntons line was turning from a pure scoring 1st line, to a shut down scoring line.
In spite of all the predictions for 60 goals and such.

Personally, I don't buy it.

It's not like Heatley-Spezza-Alfredsson were all offence, all the time.

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