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Old
11-19-2012, 12:58 AM
  #251
DougGilmour93
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Originally Posted by WonderTwinsUnite View Post
Seriously?

I thought Kadri was a more valued asset.
Nope. Frattin is more valuable. His game is considered similar to D.Brown. One can only hope

When he was sent down to the AHL last year he went on a goal scoring tear, plus he dominated in the playoffs before he succumbed to injury. He's just now coming back.

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11-19-2012, 12:59 AM
  #252
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Yet, Schneider isn't even a starter. Don't get me wrong, Schneider's numbers are great, but it's a lot easier to achieve great numbers when you're playing most of your games against a weaker subset of the opposition.
If starter was a determinant of worth toronto would put just about any tripe in net and call it good. A crappy starter is a crappy starter. And toronto's crappy starter has necessitated a search for an upgrade.

If you think schneider and reimer are of similar quality and upside, I guess there's not much that needs to be said.

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Old
11-19-2012, 01:28 AM
  #253
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Originally Posted by ginner classic View Post
If starter was a determinant of worth toronto would put just about any tripe in net and call it good. A crappy starter is a crappy starter. And toronto's crappy starter has necessitated a search for an upgrade.

If you think schneider and reimer are of similar quality and upside, I guess there's not much that needs to be said.
haven't u heard? Luongo sucks because he lost his job to Schneider and Schneider is meh because he's only played weak competition and failed against tough opponents like the last 3 cup champs and SJ. Oh wait he actually played amazing against them you say? still not proven so he isn;t a quality starter.

This leaves Vancouver with no quality starter since one is un-proven and the other lost his job to an unproven guy

The great Seanlinden logic

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11-19-2012, 01:31 AM
  #254
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haven't u heard? Luongo sucks because he lost his job to Schneider and Schneider is meh because he's only played weak competition and failed against tough opponents like the last 3 cup champs and SJ. Oh wait he actually played amazing against them you say? still not proven so he isn;t a quality starter.

This leaves Vancouver with no quality starter since one is un-proven and the other lost his job to an unproven guy

The great Seanlinden logic
So we should move both! Or neither! Good thing we don't have to choose!

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11-19-2012, 01:32 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Silverback91 View Post
haven't u heard? Luongo sucks because he lost his job to Schneider and Schneider is meh because he's only played weak competition like the last 3 cup champs and SJ.

This leaves Vancouver with no capable starter since one is un-proven and the other lost his job to an unproven guy
Yeah - am not sure if people are being serious or if they actually think they are involved in a trade negotiation.

Best goalie tandem in the nhl and they are individually crap. I guess I hope we can keep this crappy pairing for as long as possible. Gillis is going to have to pay through the nose to dump one of them.

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11-19-2012, 01:37 AM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
So we should move both! Or neither! Good thing we don't have to choose!
Schneider >> Reimer. Reimer is suited well to play in tandem as a 1-B or as a backup until we see what he can really do. It really has been hard to gauge what Toronto has with him at the moment. He could turn out great, or just become serviceable.

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11-19-2012, 01:43 AM
  #257
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Schneider >> Reimer. Reimer is suited well to play in tandem as a 1-B or as a backup until we see what he can really do. It really has been hard to gauge what Toronto has with him at the moment. He could turn out great, or just become serviceable.
Oh don't mind that post, that's me being a putz. No one seems sure, except Canucks fans, of what we can and what we probably will do: keep both to settle this. One lost his starting job and is worthless, and the other hasn't been proven at a starter (except at every other level) so he's worthless, despite "stealing" the formers job.

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11-19-2012, 02:14 AM
  #258
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Posted this before, but...

Everyone loves to speculate the reasons for a steal of a deal for their team, but trying as much as possible to separate facts from speculation, we know from the Canucks side that:

1. From several sources, Gillis' asking price was vey high.
2. From as recently as last week, Gillis has said that he'd be fine rolling with 2 goalies.

So i dont see the price being cheap ..or i dont see him moving in the short term.

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11-19-2012, 05:12 AM
  #259
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Luongo is never going to waive his NTC to go to Toronto anyways. There is exactly zero chance that the Maple Leafs are going to be a threat to win a cup anytime in the duration of his contract no matter how long it is, even if they make a step forward and make the playoffs next year, does anyone out there actually think that Kessel is going to re-sign? Just judging from his personality, I expect that he will be looking to join a winning team, in the states, with as little media coverage and as much personal privacy as he can get.

And the Leafs have nothing to offer the Canucks that we need anyways. I see all these deals that involve getting guys like Lupul back, seriously? Is he going to play with the twins, is he going to be better than Burrows there? If not, how is he going to put up good points on the second line with second unit PP time?

This isn't horse trading, getting value back means getting pieces that actually improve your team, adding random bodies does not necessarily do that. You can't just waive a magic wand and create icetime, if your giving it to someone you have to take it away from someone else, and if you're expecting players to put up the same points they did with 20 min of icetime in 15 min or less then you need to brush up on your math.

Another clue that there will be no trade with TO is how ridiculously overvalued their prospects are. Gardiner for example is the next coming of Niedermeyer in the eyes of TO fans, but to me he looks like more like Lucas Kraijick. Yes, I am serious. Karlson is a blue chipper, Doughty, Stamkos, Eberle.... these guys are the real deal. Kadri, Coburn, Ashton.... I mean get serious, these guys max out at 'servicable NHLer' and thats about it.

And finally, there is no way that TO can match what other teams can offer.



SO CAN WE STOP TALKING ABOUT THE LEAFS AS THOUGH THEY ARE AN OPTION

for the love of GOD

STOP!

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11-19-2012, 05:36 AM
  #260
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
The idea of acquiring Luongo is extremely shortsighted, especially if it comes at some of the ridiculous prices proposed here. He's 33 years old and comes with a contract that requires him to be our #1 for the long run no matter how quickly he regresses. We've got a 24 year old goaltender who could potentially be our star goaltender of the future, and trading for Luongo ensures that will never happen. It's one thing to make that move if you don't give up a substantial portion of the future that allows you to improve the team around him, but when we start combining things like Kadri, Colborne, Biggs and a 1st, is when it just makes no sense.

There is no sarcasm here. There's a reason each one of those teams aren't interested. Yeah, you can wait until one of those teams becomes interested (and Luongo's value drops as he gets older, distances himself from the time when he was the undisputed #1), and pray that the market for a guy like Luongo picks up enough to counter that -- not very good asset management.

Yeah, I hype up Reimer, you hype up Schneider. At the end of the day it's all the same. One's got great numbers, the other's younger and got #1 experience. So put the shoe on the other foot. If you're moving Luongo to give the reins to Cory Schneider with 68 games of NHL experience and minimal time as an actual #1, why should Toronto be trading for Luongo to block their young goaltender?



Because Reimer wishes he was Schneider. And Burke, despite that wish, knows better. Hence, his comments on his goaltending position. So you really can hype Reimer all you want, but it's a good thing Burke doesn't share your viewpoint, trade or no trade.








Now then, I'm noticing this argument from some TO fans: That Luongo doesn't fit the rebuild game plan. That he is too old to help them compete in their optimal window. For what it's worth, I think that is correct. He is too old to help them compete in their optimal window, give the age group of the majority of the players. Here's the thing though: The window is not an eventuality. Meaning, TO can plan to have their young/mid-age players coalesce to produce a perennial winner, but this is in fact not a linear occurrence.




A GM can plan 5 yrs in advance. He can stack the deck as much as possible, and still not have his team come together when he needs it to. That's just a fact. For instance, there was talk only last year that Lombardi would be fired if his team didn't make the playoffs. This, with a very good LA team. Essentially, showing that there's no guaranteed formula, and that teams always looking to the horizon can get caught always looking there.




Luongo is available. TO has the most pressing need of all NHL teams. The transaction itself is very apparent. All the other stuff about rebuild plans and VAN being able to keep Luongo forever is noise.

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Old
11-19-2012, 05:49 AM
  #261
Man Bear Pig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYVanfan View Post
Posted this before, but...

Everyone loves to speculate the reasons for a steal of a deal for their team, but trying as much as possible to separate facts from speculation, we know from the Canucks side that:

1. From several sources, Gillis' asking price was vey high.
2. From as recently as last week, Gillis has said that he'd be fine rolling with 2 goalies.

So i dont see the price being cheap ..or i dont see him moving in the short term.
And all of this may be true but we all know no GM in this league wants that much cap space tied up into two goalies. Just doesn't make sense.

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11-19-2012, 06:04 AM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
And all of this may be true but we all know no GM in this league wants that much cap space tied up into two goalies. Just doesn't make sense.


You are correct, it doesn't make sense. Luongo will be moved eventually. How much time depends on how far apart the asking price is from the price other GMs are willing to pay... The way it has always been.



The only thing Gillis has done by having both Luongo and Schneider signed is to not be pressed into making a deal by a certain date. That's it. He's just given himself time.

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11-19-2012, 07:14 AM
  #263
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Originally Posted by WonderTwinsUnite View Post
Seriously?

I thought Kadri was a more valued asset.
I am normally a Kadri basher, however, the kid is lighting it up right now. 14 points in 13 games...11 in the last 5 games. He is strong on the puck and evev threw a few hits against Abbotsford...thank you Mr. Roberts.

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11-19-2012, 07:17 AM
  #264
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I am normally a Kadri basher, however, the kid is lighting it up right now. 14 points in 13 games...11 in the last 5 games. He is strong on the puck and even threw a few hits against Abbotsford...thank you Mr. Roberts.
say what?!?

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11-19-2012, 08:04 AM
  #265
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Kadri, Colborne, Biggs and a 1st isn't the package most of us are looking for, I know for what I'd want, it's far less...futures oriented.

The Tampa comment was definitely sarcasm. Your point remains, but for a return that doesn't help us, and in the case of taking salary dumps in Lombardi and Connolly for other pieces that don't help us...well lets just say a mildly interested team would match.

Also, no season has really screwed up people's perception of how a season plays out. There would already be losing teams at this stage, and it's not obscene to think that one or two are due to goaltending not being sufficient.

Mostly, and don't take this as a slight, but Reimer has no where near the talent, or even the hype, that Schneider has had his whole career (from College on) that has followed him, outside of Toronto anyway. Since he was drafted, Schneider has been slotted as a top prospect, then a top goalie. Reimer could very well surprised me, but it's like comparing Reimer to Markstrom, or Rask to Reimer. He could be very good, but Rask and Schneider, and the way things have played out, Markstrom say 3-4 years from now, are all much, much better and much, much more is expected from them.
The Tampa point wasn't sarcasm at all. If there's a team out there who should've traded for Luongo, it's Tampa, and they decided that they'd rather give Lindback a shot. That should tell you something about how the league places value on youth.

There's no such thing as a salary dump when the guy's got only 1 year left. The immediate cap isn't going to be reduced from $70m.

Of course, if the season had started, there would be a couple teams who's goaltending has failed them. The point is, we don't know who those teams are. Sure, if it's Chicago or Tampa then they consider making a drastic move for Luongo, but if it's Columbus, or Edmonton, they're much more likely to wait it out then pay a huge sum to commit themselves to a 33 year old goaltender.

Mostly... what you've just described is one opinion, and something completely meaningless. I can say that Schneider has nowhere near the talent of Reimer, and guess what? I'm just as right as you are at this point their respective careers. Schneider's got better numbers, Reimer's been put in much more difficult situations and is younger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
So the Canucks have no capable starter?
Luongo is a capable and proven starter, they've just decided to take their goaltending in a different direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
I have thought the same thing. Yes Corey Schneider might have better numbers right now, however he still has not played a full season as a #1 Goalie. If he can put up those same numbers playing more games then that's great for him and the Canucks.

At least James Reimer played games as a #1 Goalie from Janurary 1, 2011 to October 22, 2011 which was the night he got injured against Montreal and wasn't the same since, so hopefully that's now behind him.
Nevermind a full season... the guy has played the role of #1 for very short stretches, and spent the majority of his career picking up backup games. Like you said, Reimer played the role of the #1 from his very first NHL game, and regressed into the #1A role when he got a concussion. Reimer's gotten more experience in 1 1/2 years with an injury than Corey Schneider's gotten in 4. He's always been his team's go-to goaltender, and in what is easily the toughest hockey market to play in... and still managed a career .911 and 2.83 gaa. As impressive as a backup on one of the best teams in the league with a career .928 and 2.24 gaa... certainly close.


Last edited by seanlinden: 11-19-2012 at 08:10 AM.
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Old
11-19-2012, 08:14 AM
  #266
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And all of this may be true but we all know no GM in this league wants that much cap space tied up into two goalies. Just doesn't make sense.
Maybe
Likely, even
Bleach answered that one though -- Gillis bought himself time

But i'm just trying to separate facts from conjecture
What facts do we know about Burke & the Leafs in this case?
Other than that they could use a goaile, very few, i think

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11-19-2012, 08:39 AM
  #267
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say what?!?
No kidding...i was at the game, 3 or 4 actual hits. He was also tough to knock off the puck. He has been lights out since his benching...even working on defense.

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11-19-2012, 09:20 AM
  #268
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No kidding...i was at the game, 3 or 4 actual hits. He was also tough to knock off the puck. He has been lights out since his benching...even working on defense.


Do you think this will change the overall perception of Kadri within the organization?


I mean, he was PPG in the AHL before, so does his resurgence change anything in the long view?

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11-19-2012, 09:24 AM
  #269
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Nope. Frattin is more valuable. His game is considered similar to D.Brown. One can only hope

When he was sent down to the AHL last year he went on a goal scoring tear, plus he dominated in the playoffs before he succumbed to injury. He's just now coming back.
i disagree. i think kadri is more valuable to the leafs and if you did a poll on here most people who are not leaf fans would prefer kadri to frattin.

kadri is the more talented player. he is also 2 years younger and putting up more points at every level. i recognize that frattin isnt playing at the moment but i think if your hoping for brown out of frattin you are going to be disappointed. frattin doesnt have browns leadership or his checking ability. frattins success is because of his shot. in the ahl it has been easy for him to score on goalies but at the nhl level his game has not translated. kadri has also not lite it up at the nhl level but i think if given a choice of which one to put on a line with jvr and grabs most would prefer the jvr-grabs-kadri line and have kulemin-?-frattin on the third. its not a knock on the guy and i can easily be wrong but i think from a straight up value perspective if burke had to give up one of these players it would be frattin. kadri might be seen as boom or bust but the upside is too much to give up on at this point imo.

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11-19-2012, 09:34 AM
  #270
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i disagree. i think kadri is more valuable to the leafs and if you did a poll on here most people who are not leaf fans would prefer kadri to frattin.

kadri is the more talented player. he is also 2 years younger and putting up more points at every level. i recognize that frattin isnt playing at the moment but i think if your hoping for brown out of frattin you are going to be disappointed. frattin doesnt have browns leadership or his checking ability. frattins success is because of his shot. in the ahl it has been easy for him to score on goalies but at the nhl level his game has not translated. kadri has also not lite it up at the nhl level but i think if given a choice of which one to put on a line with jvr and grabs most would prefer the jvr-grabs-kadri line and have kulemin-?-frattin on the third. its not a knock on the guy and i can easily be wrong but i think from a straight up value perspective if burke had to give up one of these players it would be frattin. kadri might be seen as boom or bust but the upside is too much to give up on at this point imo.



As a Canuck fan I agree with you. Frattin is the safer asset, but Kadri's upside trumps it all. Despite the fact that Kadri is more boom/bust. If given the choice, he would be the more coveted asset.



However, saying all of this, it's up to the target GM. If he builds his team in a fashion that favours Kadri's game, it's an easy decision. If he goes the other way, it becomes a toss up IMO. Some GMs place a heavy importance on the things done away from and without the puck. Those GMs would favour Frattin.

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11-19-2012, 09:35 AM
  #271
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Nope. Frattin is more valuable. His game is considered similar to D.Brown. One can only hope

When he was sent down to the AHL last year he went on a goal scoring tear, plus he dominated in the playoffs before he succumbed to injury. He's just now coming back.
Alright. Change Kadri to Colborne? Is he more valued than Kadri as well?

I'm of the mind that Kadri won't pan out in the NHL, definitely not with a talent laden team like Vancouver.

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11-19-2012, 09:36 AM
  #272
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Nevermind a full season... the guy has played the role of #1 for very short stretches, and spent the majority of his career picking up backup games. Like you said, Reimer played the role of the #1 from his very first NHL game, and regressed into the #1A role when he got a concussion. Reimer's gotten more experience in 1 1/2 years with an injury than Corey Schneider's gotten in 4. He's always been his team's go-to goaltender, and in what is easily the toughest hockey market to play in... and still managed a career .911 and 2.83 gaa. As impressive as a backup on one of the best teams in the league with a career .928 and 2.24 gaa... certainly close.
We strongly disagree on this point. A 0.911 save% on any team isn't as impressive as a 0.928. The difference is incredible.

For example on the Canucks who allow 30 shots a game, the difference would be 42 goals. This goal difference would be enough to move all but the worst team in the NHL CBJ into playoff contention. Toronto would be moved from 3rd worst in the East to 6th best leaping over 7 teams.

Add the fact that Reimer's save% was actually 0.900 and Schnediers was 0.937 in a similar games played and I'd say the difference is staggering. Using the same math, the difference would be 91 goals (simple math, assuming each goalie played 82 games). That difference would move Toronto up to 3rd in goal difference in the whole league which is coincidentally where Vancouver ended up. It's a bit of a stretch but you could argue that switching Vancouver's goalies with Toronto's would actually completely switch both teams' fortunes. Vancouver could miss the playoffs - potentially being saved by their weaker division, while Toronto would finish with a high seed and potentially challenge for the President's trophy.

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11-19-2012, 09:42 AM
  #273
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More on the "benefits" of rebuilding vs. taking on a 33 yr old Luongo:


http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/11/8/how-...ebuilding-work


Last edited by Bleach Clean: 11-19-2012 at 09:51 AM.
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11-19-2012, 10:09 AM
  #274
Liferleafer
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Do you think this will change the overall perception of Kadri within the organization?


I mean, he was PPG in the AHL before, so does his resurgence change anything in the long view?
If he can get his defense in order and play with an edge while putting up numbers?? Lets just say you have described a Burke wet dream.

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11-19-2012, 10:17 AM
  #275
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
If he can get his defense in order and play with an edge while putting up numbers?? Lets just say you have described a Burke wet dream.


I think the edge and the numbers have continued to be there. It will come down to his defense Edit: and size. Do you think he has improved these aspects enough to no longer worry about him as a prospect? Or do you think he will, based on what you have see?


Last edited by Bleach Clean: 11-19-2012 at 10:29 AM.
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