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Lockout Thread: I told myself I wouldn't do this| Part IV

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Old
11-19-2012, 09:50 AM
  #126
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Originally Posted by The Naz View Post
They've been offered their 50/50 deal scaled in over 3 years, no? I don't know what the problem is? That's a massive concession by the players and it's ridiculous that it's not accepted.

Both sides have come in from their original stance, considerably.

And, IMO, Lupul 100% right calling out Bettman for his supposed 2 week hiatus. There is a lot of smaller jobs in business that are being affected much more then the players.
Except that the break suggested by Bettman was completely mischaracterized and players and their media supporters wasted no time jumping on ship to make stupid comments about it as though the comment came out of the blue. It was simply a rebuttal to something Fehr said. If the league truly didn't want to meet for two weeks, what would prevent them from simply refusing to come to the table for the next two weeks, moratorium or not? After all of this is done, these players and owners will all still be around, along with Bettman. I understand the players are frustrated but from time to time, they should allow common sense to prevail rather than allowing their emotions to mischaracterize situations just to get a good dig in.

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11-19-2012, 01:16 PM
  #127
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He's not right though, especially when he should look at his own side as well. It would be the equivalent of a player getting suspended for elbowing and Matt Cooke tweeting "how many times is this guy going to do this?"

I'm not looking to be mad at the player. I liked Lupul but guys like him and Toews are acting like idiots. The PA hires guys like Goodenow and Fehr,and then act indignant about being locked out.

And as Hurt pointed out, it's not a real 50/50 that the PA offered. If they offer the same thing today (and I'll be surprised if they don't) this thing will continue and we'll get more tweets from players acting innocent saying that they just want to play hockey but the big, bad, evil owners won't let them.
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Except that the break suggested by Bettman was completely mischaracterized and players and their media supporters wasted no time jumping on ship to make stupid comments about it as though the comment came out of the blue. It was simply a rebuttal to something Fehr said. If the league truly didn't want to meet for two weeks, what would prevent them from simply refusing to come to the table for the next two weeks, moratorium or not? After all of this is done, these players and owners will all still be around, along with Bettman. I understand the players are frustrated but from time to time, they should allow common sense to prevail rather than allowing their emotions to mischaracterize situations just to get a good dig in.
Bettman made a comment suggesting they should take a two week hiatus on negotiations. Whether it was a joke or he was adamant and he was told by everyone no, doesn't matter. He said it. That fact isn't wrong.

Whether or not he was kidding about wasting 2 more weeks of the lockout and guaranteeing thousands of people 2 more weeks of useless unemployment doesn't matter. But BTW, what do you mean that it was taken out of context? Or "mischaracterized"?

Bettman has also overseen 3 lockouts in the NHL in his reign. That is also a fact. Lupul ISN'T wrong in stating that fact.

Allowing people who've lost their jobs and have had to travel half way around the globe for work the RIGHT to speak their minds is some of the basics of a free and democratic society. Whether that person is right or wrong, rich or poor, they are entitled to speak their mind. Telling him to shut up now when we have a tool to speak to each other on a global scale without the hampering of those in control, is counter productive to a free society.

Freedom of speech is important.

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11-19-2012, 02:04 PM
  #128
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Burke attending CBA meeting tonight. I'd say on NHL side (kind of obvious).

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11-19-2012, 03:46 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by The Naz View Post
Bettman made a comment suggesting they should take a two week hiatus on negotiations. Whether it was a joke or he was adamant and he was told by everyone no, doesn't matter. He said it. That fact isn't wrong.

Whether or not he was kidding about wasting 2 more weeks of the lockout and guaranteeing thousands of people 2 more weeks of useless unemployment doesn't matter. But BTW, what do you mean that it was taken out of context? Or "mischaracterized"?

Bettman has also overseen 3 lockouts in the NHL in his reign. That is also a fact. Lupul ISN'T wrong in stating that fact.

Allowing people who've lost their jobs and have had to travel half way around the globe for work the RIGHT to speak their minds is some of the basics of a free and democratic society. Whether that person is right or wrong, rich or poor, they are entitled to speak their mind. Telling him to shut up now when we have a tool to speak to each other on a global scale without the hampering of those in control, is counter productive to a free society.

Freedom of speech is important.
Nobody said that what Lupul has said was wrong or that he couldn't say what he wanted to say. Yet, You must admit that his opinion is pretty biased and says nothing about the other side of the coin. Lupul brought up Gary Bettman's lockout record, well and good, but he looked a little dumb saying it when Fehrs lockout/strike record is 3 times worse. Nothing wrong with someone pointing that out in retort.

Saying anything negative about Lupul is hard for some because he's currently a Leaf. Others are able to see both sides objectively and know that both sides are being pretty stupid.

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Old
11-19-2012, 04:35 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
Nobody said that what Lupul has said was wrong or that he couldn't say what he wanted to say. Yet, You must admit that his opinion is pretty biased and says nothing about the other side of the coin. Lupul brought up Gary Bettman's lockout record, well and good, but he looked a little dumb saying it when Fehrs lockout/strike record is 3 times worse. Nothing wrong with someone pointing that out in retort.

Saying anything negative about Lupul is hard for some because he's currently a Leaf. Others are able to see both sides objectively and know that both sides are being pretty stupid.
Yes they did.

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He's not right though, especially when.....
Like I said, he's right in stating those facts. I get your point about Fehr and Bettman, and their lockout history. But they have their legit reasons to disagree.

I think the last lockout was just by the owners, and even this one to a degree, but I don't think leaving it as a lockout over 2-3% is constructive. If you want massive gains/concessions, you will have to endure massive discrepancies in negotiations. I think that a middle ground between 50/50 and 57/43 is fair for a short lockout. The fact that the players are willing (as I am to understand) to get to 50/50 within a 6-7 year CBA is great by them. That is a huge concession. It appears, from my perspective, that the owners are being greedy in this negotiation. They want it all, and they want it NOW. That's not being cooperative in normal negotiations. I know from experience.

If you want it all, now, you will have to wait until next season to get that. If they can at all.

Personally I think the majority of owners won't want this to last all season. They will eventually concede a little and offer something more palatable to the players.

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11-19-2012, 04:50 PM
  #131
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Burke attending CBA meeting tonight. I'd say on NHL side (kind of obvious).
Should be fun with Burke involved.

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11-19-2012, 05:36 PM
  #132
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Should be fun with Burke involved.
I think it's a smart move. Burke is a well respected guy on both sides (I really believe that). He's also the GM of the wealthiest NHL team who has a lot to say about the contract issues that are ruining the game and why they need to be fixed. Just look at how much heat he's taken by standing behind his principles.

The NHL must convince the players that the contract changes are not for their convenience. But rather for the good of the game. Only then will progress be made.

10+ year contracts are going to ruin hockey forever if they are allowed to continue. As long as players can take advantage of a loophole, there'll be some desperate GM out there to abide by it.

If anyone can properly articulate the need for change, it's Burke.

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11-19-2012, 05:37 PM
  #133
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Did anyone else get a chuckle out of Versteeg's comments? I think we finally know why Burke dumped him.

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11-19-2012, 05:43 PM
  #134
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While I am fully with owners on this matter, I really hope that Jeremy Jacobs is not attending these negotiatons. Such a bummer of a guy!

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11-19-2012, 05:48 PM
  #135
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Did anyone else get a chuckle out of Versteeg's comments? I think we finally know why Burke dumped him.
why did he acquire him in the first place...didn't even last a season with the Leafs. Does this guy do his homework on players or do they just become punks after the Leafs acquire them?

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11-19-2012, 05:57 PM
  #136
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In response to my previous post...

Jacobs is indeed attending tonight's negotiations. Boom goes the dynamite. (Hoping to be wrong).

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11-19-2012, 07:05 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Penalty Kill Icing View Post
In response to my previous post...

Jacobs is indeed attending tonight's negotiations. Boom goes the dynamite. (Hoping to be wrong).
Many were saying the season was gone, this probably ensures it is.

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11-19-2012, 07:09 PM
  #138
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Pull it. I don't want the shriveled remains of a season the NHL would try sell us.

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11-19-2012, 07:26 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by The Naz View Post
Bettman made a comment suggesting they should take a two week hiatus on negotiations. Whether it was a joke or he was adamant and he was told by everyone no, doesn't matter. He said it. That fact isn't wrong.

Whether or not he was kidding about wasting 2 more weeks of the lockout and guaranteeing thousands of people 2 more weeks of useless unemployment doesn't matter. But BTW, what do you mean that it was taken out of context? Or "mischaracterized"?

Bettman has also overseen 3 lockouts in the NHL in his reign. That is also a fact. Lupul ISN'T wrong in stating that fact.

Allowing people who've lost their jobs and have had to travel half way around the globe for work the RIGHT to speak their minds is some of the basics of a free and democratic society. Whether that person is right or wrong, rich or poor, they are entitled to speak their mind. Telling him to shut up now when we have a tool to speak to each other on a global scale without the hampering of those in control, is counter productive to a free society.

Freedom of speech is important.
It was mischaracterized by Lupul, players and several media by framing the comment in a way that would suggest that we're in the middle of negotiations and Gary Bettman wants to take a vacation. They also said that Bettman REQUESTED A MORATORIUM. Bettman didn't request the moratorium. Fehr said that he didn't know how to the two sides could proceed. Fehr was trying to get Gary to bite the bait and make a move but instead, Bettman used Fehr's own tactic against him and said 'well then we can take two weeks if you want so you can figure it out'. THAT is the context of Gary's two week break comment.

Sure, if you want to get technical, Bettman did mention the two week break but Lupul is wrong for twisting the comments to make it seem like they meant something other than what they actually meant.

It's easy to remove context from a situation in order to hear what we want to hear and Lupul is guilty of doing so - whether consciously or subconsciously.

And for the record, Lupul and the players shouldn't shut up because they have no right to freedom of speech, they should shut up because throughout this process, they're making themselves and the general NHLPA look like a bunch of hypocrites. I'll listen to Ryan Miller spew PA rhetoric all day and night. You know why? Because he speaks with intelligence and maturity and no matter if people agree or disagree with you, people will respect what you have to say far more when you put real thought into your words.


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11-19-2012, 08:02 PM
  #140
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why did he acquire him in the first place...didn't even last a season with the Leafs. Does this guy do his homework on players or do they just become punks after the Leafs acquire them?
Fair point and worthy of criticism.

I will say though though. I've been involved in hiring many people in my career so far and have done many of interviews. I think I'm pretty good at it actually. Have I been wrong before? You bet your ass I have. I've also had my fair share of slam dunks too.

Not sure what your expectations are, but getting a slam dunk every time you hire someone is impossible, believe me.

Perhaps the best person I have ever interviewed was 22 years old, just out of school. Could not stump that kid or make him squirm even though he didn't have a lick of experience. I've also interviewed senior guys who wiped the floor with the interview who couldn't do the job of that 22 year old.

Burke may not get it right every time, but the trick is to weigh it against all of his moves. So far he's doing the job the right way.

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11-19-2012, 08:10 PM
  #141
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why did he acquire him in the first place...didn't even last a season with the Leafs. Does this guy do his homework on players or do they just become punks after the Leafs acquire them?
Well Versteeg hated Wilson and asked for a trade. I question Versteeg's character in quitting so fast on the team.

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11-19-2012, 08:12 PM
  #142
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I'm starting not to care at all. With the Jays moves, I care more about baseball starting next April than the NHL making a deal.

This lockout is so stupid and uneccessary. They will regret this for years to come.

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11-19-2012, 08:47 PM
  #143
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Welcome to Socialism in the NHL !!!.

The players are simply cattle, and a means for the Owners to pad their billions$$, with limited rights to those that actually allow them to earn them, or concern for those that actually pay them both.
Wow.
The players have a minimum wage of half a million dollars while more than half of the owners are LOSING millions per season.
And you're calling the players cattle...

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Last CBA the Owners locked out the players and cried that they needed cost certainty and a hard cap system in order to make money, that they claimed would solve all their problems. They agreed to 57% player costs stating that would allow that, and in trade-off to a hard cap players got greater individual rights like earlier free agent status for cost certainty for their partners.

Now 7 years later with a fully functioning cap system, the Owners are crying "poor me" again as greed seems to have gotten the better of them. So again lets lock out the cattle and cut into their share, and claw back their rights, and lets do it and hold the hockey world hostage again until they get what they want.
The cap created in the last cba created record revenues for the nhl (which of course increases the players paychecks as well).
This is because the cap created much better parity, and helped the sport grow.

So the cap has been successful.

The problem is that the players still take too big a piece of the pie (as proven by the fact that more than half the owners are losing money, while the players have a minimum wage of HALF A MILLION DOLLARS).


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The Owners apparently have no intention of honouring contracts they signed nor previous CBA terms they agreed to in order to get their salary cap originally.
It is stated DIRECTLY in the players contracts that it is over-ridden by future cba's.
If the players didn't like that clause, they should have negotiated for it's removal.
I have no idea at all why the players are complaining about something that is IN THEIR CONTRACTS!!!

The players are pretty much saying
"We just want the owners to HONOUR OUR CONTRACTS... except of course for the parts of our contracts we don't like."


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So Donald Fehr should tell Bettman that if he wants all player rights to go back to pre-cap era then lets take the hard salary cap off the table in exchange. Bettman can then allow his Owners to pay as much or as little as they want on entertainment costs to guarantee they all make profits, and the big rich teams spending more can be luxuary taxed to revenue share with his small market poorer teams. Hockey is back on the ice and everyone is happy. You know something like Baseball's CBA which Fehr successfully negotiated in the past.
The players average salary has DOUBLED in the past 7 years. Is there any other profession IN THE WORLD where that has happened?
And you want Fehr and the players to cry poor?
The poor little guys who have DOUBLED their salaries in 7 years are being exploited by the mean ol' greedy owners who more than half of are LOSING millions per season.

This is completely out of control.

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11-19-2012, 09:26 PM
  #144
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The PA looking more and more foolish with every passing day.

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11-19-2012, 09:28 PM
  #145
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Did anyone else get a chuckle out of Versteeg's comments? I think we finally know why Burke dumped him.
and ian white.

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11-19-2012, 09:30 PM
  #146
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I'm starting not to care at all. With the Jays moves, I care more about baseball starting next April than the NHL making a deal.

This lockout is so stupid and uneccessary. They will regret this for years to come.
i agree with this post.

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11-19-2012, 09:43 PM
  #147
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Did anyone else get a chuckle out of Versteeg's comments? I think we finally know why Burke dumped him.
I thought they were embarrassing and shameful

And White too

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11-19-2012, 09:53 PM
  #148
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It's comment like Versteeg and White and antics like the Habs players that make me glad that the worse the Leafs have going is Lupul and Liles probably talking more than they should be. Kessel hasn't made a peep at all...which isn't surprising but it's nice that he isn't putting himself out there and saying unnecessary tall tales.

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11-19-2012, 09:53 PM
  #149
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Well the owners enforced a cap, enforced a 24% rollback, signed contracts under the terms of the CBA they dictated and now have no intention of honouring their contracts and won't negotiate a deal.

Oh, and why do you think players should not have the right to speak their minds?

But you do have it right in that the lock-out is all about the owners. There is no NHL right now because of the owners. That is the truth and you can't spin it any other way.
The owners didn't enforce those things, they were collectively bargained. One of the reasons for them, and what seems to be often ignored, was because of how well the players had it in the first place.

Regarding the honoring of contracts under the terms of the CBA; for starters there is no CBA, and even under the previous CBA players contracts were always subject to adjustments based on revenues and escrow. On top of that the owners have made offers to pay back lost wages, and on the whole have made more of an attempt to negotiate.

Lupul can say whatever he wants obviously, as can anybody else, but he should expect to be called out on it, especially when his side isn't exactly innocent in this whole thing.

There no NHL right now because there is no CBA, and that is on both sides; not just the owners.

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11-19-2012, 10:20 PM
  #150
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Dan Rosen @drosennhl:
Daly: "If their proposal continues to be a guaranteed amount of players' share dollars we have told them that sitting here on Nov. 19...”

Dan Rosen @drosennhl:
Daly cont.: "that's not a proposal that is acceptable to us or would ever be acceptable to our owners right now."

Must be nice to be a player and live in a fantasy world.

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