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NHL Lockout Discussion: Despite All My Rage I Am Still Just A Rat In A Cage

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Old
11-19-2012, 09:37 AM
  #726
Howard Chuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepty View Post
Originally Posted by RangerBoy
Jeff Klein of the NY Times is back. He wrote the article last week after talking with a member of the NHLPA delegation who attended the meetings. The article claimed the sides are closer than it has been portrayed. After the article,the NHL became all Debbie Downer offering a 2 week break in talks and telling all of the media people it was a dire situation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/19/sp...yZ5i++JtlFQ4Fw



For some reason the PA attempted to show everyone that they were closer than they were.
I guess this is the meeting the NYTimes is referring to:
http://www.startribune.com/printarticle/?id=178419261


Yesterday just started on bad footing when the league and union were supposed to meet at 10 a.m. The union kept the league waiting until 4 p.m., something the Fehrs have done a handful of times throughout this lockout.

Then, instead of responding to the NHL’s proposals on revenue sharing and split of revenues, Don Fehr tried to demonstrate on paper how the two sides mathematically were “much closer together” than the league thought. The league disagreed, and things were off to a bad start and almost instantaneously went into private caucuses.
Don't ever underestimate how frustrating and infuriating being late can be to some people. In another life, I was privvy to meetings between some very important people (I was not a VIP though ). If one party kept another party waiting, the egos in the room became very indignant and it ultimately set the tone of the following meeting and sometimes meetings.

It's a great way to sour a meeting in advance.

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Old
11-19-2012, 09:41 AM
  #727
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy77 View Post
Fehr's goal is to damage the league as much as possible while ensuring the players aren't on the hook for it to discourage future lockouts.
And as long as salaries are linked to revenue, the players will be on the hook for Fehr trying to damage the league as much as possible. Enter going after the cap.

Right now, this is just a boring half season lockout. If there is a far larger experiment going on though, and this thing somehow bleeds into a second season, or they're still in the same place a calendar year from now, then it starts to get interesting.

If this is Fehr's last dance, if he's done as a union leader after this, then it makes even more sense that he would just go for all of it. He chose to take the NHLPA job. He's going up against an ownership group that cancelled an entire season for the one thing Fehr dislikes the most. To not just stop a cap from being implemented, but to go after an established cap, that would be the fight of all fights for Fehr. He's got nothing to lose here.

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Old
11-19-2012, 09:48 AM
  #728
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingsFan7824 View Post
And as long as salaries are linked to revenue, the players will be on the hook for Fehr trying to damage the league as much as possible. Enter going after the cap.
Why do you think all his proposals are unlinked and he wants the players paid for a full season ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
That would make sense if the NHL weren't just trying to get the PA to accept the most generous revenue split in NA pro sports. It's not a slippery slope, infinite regression negotiation going on here. There's a tangible end goal. And that end goal has the players accepting something only modestly more than players in the MLB and NFL get, but close enough so that owners can turn a profit.
Somehow I doubt that little tidbit is discussed in their meetings or that the players research other leagues.

Fehr has convinced them they need to fight to keep what they have and they're willing to lose money to get a better deal. Only a question of how much are they willing to lose.


Last edited by Iggy77: 11-19-2012 at 09:53 AM.
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Old
11-19-2012, 09:51 AM
  #729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy77 View Post
Fehr isn't trying to negotiate the best possible while saving a full season and minimizing losses for the players, he's fighting the whole Proskauer Rose lockout strategy of locking the union out until they waive the white flag.

Fehr's goal is to damage the league as much as possible while ensuring the players aren't on the hook for it to discourage future lockouts. If Fehr takes the Nov.2 offer, the NHL will do this again in 7-8 years and ask for 55/45(or whatever) knowing the players will cave to save a full season. They will have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

He's making this as costly and frustrating for the league as possible. This is more about setting the tone for future negotiations and not about getting a deal done now.

The $6M question is does Fehr and the PA have it in them to lose the season.
Is that what the players brought him in for?To have an ideological battle, lose them money in the short term and damage the league and their future earnings in the long term?

Seems like the players and their careers don't count for much in the Fehr wolrd, they are just the vehicle that Fehr is using for his own agenda.

Regarding future work stoppages. that is just one more phony excuse for PA stonewalling; any league would be dumb to enter a season with no agreement and leave themselves open to a pre playoff strike which Fehr famously did in losing a world series and threatened again in 2002.

From the League point of view, if the PA can stall for half a season and pay no price. that is a guarantee of labour strife especially as the Fehr faction seem set to be in charge of the NHLPA for the foreseeable future.

If is it is correct that Fehr is waging a battle against one particular law firm(what about Daly's law firm, Is it next?)that is a betrayal of the players, though it may mean something to his ego and legacy among his union heroes such as his old mentor at the MLBPA.

I thought it was interesting that in the Winnipeg Free Press interview, this question was asked :
FP: Don Fehr is a union leader. A negotiation is his raison d'�tre. It's been suggested a protracted lockout keeps him in the spotlight


Last edited by pepty: 11-19-2012 at 09:59 AM.
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Old
11-19-2012, 09:52 AM
  #730
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingsFan7824 View Post
And as long as salaries are linked to revenue, the players will be on the hook for Fehr trying to damage the league as much as possible. Enter going after the cap.

Right now, this is just a boring half season lockout. If there is a far larger experiment going on though, and this thing somehow bleeds into a second season, or they're still in the same place a calendar year from now, then it starts to get interesting.

If this is Fehr's last dance, if he's done as a union leader after this, then it makes even more sense that he would just go for all of it. He chose to take the NHLPA job. He's going up against an ownership group that cancelled an entire season for the one thing Fehr dislikes the most. To not just stop a cap from being implemented, but to go after an established cap, that would be the fight of all fights for Fehr. He's got nothing to lose here.
For sure. I think Don is under some pressure to not disillusion his base. He can't tell them they're going to accept a deal that pays them less than what they could've gotten on Nov 2 (which is pretty much any deal on the table right now). So he has to set his sights on a bigger fish.

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11-19-2012, 09:56 AM
  #731
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Originally Posted by DuklaNation View Post
This should be stickied for all posters who whine about the initial low-ball offer.
Won't matter. Spin it Bettman's way (should have been obvious that 50-50 was the end goal) or spin it to show that the players current share (57-43 in the other direction) isn't tenable and some folks just won't acknowledge any sort of reality. It'll still be unfair, ridiculous, toxic or whatever adjective fits their own ideas. For the life of me I'll never get the notion that 57-43 in favor of the players is ok but 57-43 for the owners is insulting. Reality disconnect. Both would be unfair if one is.

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11-19-2012, 09:57 AM
  #732
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the fans need to finally take a stand to prevent this from ever happening again. opening night throughout the league there should be an empty rink for at least one period. Maybe one sign placed on a seat in each stadium, "Time to Respect the Fans."

I know it would never happen. It would further hurt the league but it is irritating the fans are so low on the list of priorities with the NHL.

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Old
11-19-2012, 09:57 AM
  #733
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy77 View Post
Why do you think all his proposals are unlinked and he wants the players paid for a full season ?



Somehow I doubt that little tidbit is discussed in their meetings or that the players research other leagues.

Fehr has convinced them they need to fight to keep what they have and they're willing to lose money to get a better deal. Only a question of how much are they willing to lose.
But the longer this goes, the less incentive either side has to accept the other sides framework becomes less and less. Players don't want to be on the hook for decreasing revenue whether now or in the near future. Owners don't want to be on the hook for decreasing revenues now or in the near future while still paying out 1.9B (and continuously growing) in real dollars to player salaries. This has been the issue as it stands.

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11-19-2012, 09:57 AM
  #734
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CerebralGenesis View Post
What time are they meeting today? Scheduled time, not Fehr time.
I am also curious about this. Anyone?

Edit: I checked up on the NHL site and this was said:

Quote:
"We can confirm that we have tentatively agreed to get back together on Monday, either late in the afternoon or early evening," Daly said. "The meeting was requested by the Union and it's their agenda. We will see what they have to tell us."
So I assume Fehr will stroll in around midnight.

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Old
11-19-2012, 09:59 AM
  #735
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepty View Post
Is what the players brought him in for?To have an ideological battle, lose them money in the short term and damage the league and their future earnings in the long term?

Seems like the players and their careers don't count for much in the Fehr wolrd, they are just the vehicle that Fehr is using for his own agenda.

Regarding future work stoppages. that is just one more phony excuse for PA stonewalling; any league would be dumb to enter a season with no agreement and leave themselves open to a pre playoff strike which Fehr famously did in losing a world series and threatened again in 2002.

From the League point of view, if the PA can stall for half a season and pay no price. that is a guarantee of labour strife especially as the Fehr faction seem set to be in charge of the NHLPA for the foreseeable future?

If is it is correct that Fehr is waging a battle against one particular law firm(what about Daly's law firm, Is it next?)that is a betrayal of the players, though it may mean something to his ego and legacy among his union heroes such as his old mentor at the MLBPA.

I thought it was interesting that in the Winnipeg Free Press interview, this question was asked :
FP: Don Fehr is a union leader. A negotiation is his raison d'�tre. It's been suggested a protracted lockout keeps him in the spotlight
Typical anti-union rhetoric.
Not worthy of consideration by anyone who actually wishes to understand the process

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Old
11-19-2012, 09:59 AM
  #736
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurt View Post
I am also curious about this. Anyone?
The only thing I've seen is late afternoon to early evening (eastern).

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Old
11-19-2012, 10:01 AM
  #737
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
In all fairness, that was likely for PR reasons. They were certainly not going to voice any concerns of profit when the idea was to grow the game. What you have is a marketing strategy, and a rather efficient one where you are completely honest but simply avoid mentioning the specifics. Everything Bettman said did happen, he just didn't elude to there still being potential issues down the road.
Accept that Bettman lied to you for PR reasons for the last 7 years... But believe that he's telling the truth now, because the NHL would never engage in PR shenanigans during a CBA negotiation

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11-19-2012, 10:02 AM
  #738
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If the NHLPA called a meeting to offer another de-linked proposal, so help me god. If they've finally decided to agree on linkage, leaving just the numbers and other issues to be haggled, how fast could this lockout be resolved?

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11-19-2012, 10:03 AM
  #739
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Originally Posted by PeterSidorkiewicz View Post
You know what's a great way to reduce player costs and make yourself earn profit if the owners love profit so much? Have this thing called an internal budget for your roster and don't go over it. It seems to work for Ottawa rather well.
Player costs are mostly driven by the players HRR share, not the actual dollar amount paid out. Every team could set their internal budget to the cap floor if they wanted to, if the dollar amount is under the players HRR share for that season, they have to equally divvy up the difference to pay the players back the difference.

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11-19-2012, 10:04 AM
  #740
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Originally Posted by Samzilla View Post
If the NHLPA called a meeting to offer another de-linked proposal, so help me god. If they've finally decided to agree on linkage, leaving just the numbers and other issues to be haggled, how fast could this lockout be resolved?
I'm not even expecting that they have a proposal. They probably just want to talk some more about things they've already talked about. Maybe they feel repetition is key to getting the owners to change their minds.

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11-19-2012, 10:04 AM
  #741
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Paul Bissonnette ‏@BizNasty2point0
Gary Bettman takes a lot of heat for doing his job. Question to you is would you do what he does for 8 million dollars a year?
Biz really doesn't come across as smart.

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11-19-2012, 10:05 AM
  #742
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
From the Bettman interview:

FP: Was the aggressive nature of your first offer to the players a mistake?

GB: I think the view some have of our first offer is fairly naive as it relates to collective bargaining. A sophisticated negotiator would have looked at it and said, 'Obviously they want a 50-50 split.' If we're at 57 and they propose 43, they must be telegraphing where they want to end. If your intention was to use it in an inflammatory way, you could do that. If your intention was to make a deal, you could pretty much chart out what the course should be.
Sophisticated?
There offer was anything but sophisticated.

Gary Bettman thinks the best way to point to 50/50 --- WHICH EVERYONE KNEW HE WAS AFTER -- was make a ridiculous offer that essentially guaranteed cancellation of games?

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11-19-2012, 10:07 AM
  #743
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samzilla View Post
If the NHLPA called a meeting to offer another de-linked proposal, so help me god. If they've finally decided to agree on linkage, leaving just the numbers and other issues to be haggled, how fast could this lockout be resolved?
A couple of days with perhaps a couple more to draw everything up.

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Old
11-19-2012, 10:08 AM
  #744
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If the NHLPA called a meeting to offer another de-linked proposal, so help me god. If they've finally decided to agree on linkage, leaving just the numbers and other issues to be haggled, how fast could this lockout be resolved?
If they offer a de-linked proposal then I wouldn't hold it against the NHL to walk out.

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11-19-2012, 10:09 AM
  #745
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Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
Biz really doesn't come across as smart.
Depends how you spin it. For the heat that Bettman gets by doing his job he gets a worthy reward.

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Old
11-19-2012, 10:09 AM
  #746
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Sophisticated?
There offer was anything but sophisticated.

Gary Bettman thinks the best way to point to 50/50 --- WHICH EVERYONE KNEW HE WAS AFTER -- was make a ridiculous offer that essentially guaranteed cancellation of games?
It's only ridiculous because Fehr decided to turn it into something it never was. If he would have been interested in negotiating it's a starting point for negotiation.

I know some are very impressed with the "hrumph, how insulting" Fehr shtick, but it's not a particularly rational stance.

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Old
11-19-2012, 10:09 AM
  #747
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Isn't that nytimes article poor reporting. The owners agreed to a fade in and getting to 50/50 by year 3. The real issue is the struction and linking/delinking of revenue and projected growth increases. I think I should become a reporter if thats how some of them give out misinformation
Can someone please send me all the quotes from Bettman, Dally and the owners where they say LINKING is the major issue?

Not saying it's not true.

But I'd like to hear it from the horse's mouth.

It seems as if HFboards is making this a bigger issue than it is.

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11-19-2012, 10:10 AM
  #748
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I don't see any point in today's meeting, but I guess it's a marginally better sign to meet than to not meet at this point.

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Old
11-19-2012, 10:11 AM
  #749
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Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
If they offer a de-linked proposal then I wouldn't hold it against the NHL to walk out.
It'll be a de-linked proposal. The longer the lockout drags on, the less reasons they have to accept a linked proposal.

If they were going to accept a linked proposal, they should have done so before games were permanently cancelled.

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11-19-2012, 10:12 AM
  #750
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
It's only ridiculous because Fehr decided to turn it into something it never was. If he would have been interested in negotiating it's a starting point for negotiation.

I know some are very impressed with the "hrumph, how insulting" Fehr shtick, but it's not a particularly rational stance.
Baloney.
The offer was symbolic in that it was a declaration of war.

It told everyone, once again, that the NHL owners were trying to by ballbusters and not deal makers. That they were more concerned with projecting strength and silly symbolism than getting a deal done.

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