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NHL Lockout Discussion: Despite All My Rage I Am Still Just A Rat In A Cage

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Old
11-19-2012, 10:13 AM
  #751
MeestaDeteta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy77 View Post
It'll be a de-linked proposal. The longer the lockout drags on, the less reasons they have to accept a linked proposal.

If they were going to accept a linked proposal, they should have done so before games were permanently cancelled.
Well I think there's a difference to de-linking for 1 or 2 years as "buffer" or "transition period" to ensure contracts get paid out.

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11-19-2012, 10:13 AM
  #752
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Chris Johnston@reporterchris
NHL talks resume later today with a large group in NYC: Big Four, players, owners and at least one GM all expected to attend.

That one GM is probably Burke, I wonder who else will be there (if any).

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Old
11-19-2012, 10:14 AM
  #753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
If they offer a de-linked proposal then I wouldn't hold it against the NHL to walk out.
Can you provide any links over the last month where Bettman or Daly say that LINKAGE is a must?

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11-19-2012, 10:14 AM
  #754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Baloney.
The offer was symbolic in that it was a declaration of war.

It told everyone, once again, that the NHL owners were trying to by ballbusters and not deal makers. That they were more concerned with projecting strength and silly symbolism than getting a deal done.
Wasn't the NFL's & NBA's initial offers close to the 43% that Bettman offered initially?

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11-19-2012, 10:15 AM
  #755
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Can someone please send me all the quotes from Bettman, Dally and the owners where they say LINKING is the major issue?

Not saying it's not true.

But I'd like to hear it from the horse's mouth.

It seems as if HFboards is making this a bigger issue than it is.
I don't believe they've directly said that linkage is the issue but they repeatedly say that the two sides aren't even using the same framework and that the players don't actually guarantee anything. Putting two and two together, it would be deduced that the owners don't want any part of delinkage. The only difference in framework between both sides proposals is the issue of linkage versus delinkage. The fact Bettman and Daly have criticized the players proposals for not providing any real guarantee split, once again points to an issue with delinkage and concerns of the players projections taking longer to meet or not at all meeting the splits that the PA are proposing.

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11-19-2012, 10:15 AM
  #756
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Baloney.
The offer was symbolic in that it was a declaration of war.

It told everyone, once again, that the NHL owners were trying to by ballbusters and not deal makers. That they were more concerned with projecting strength and silly symbolism than getting a deal done.
Why do you have an emotional response to an economic proposal? It's not rational behavior.

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11-19-2012, 10:16 AM
  #757
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Can you provide any links over the last month where Bettman or Daly say that LINKAGE is a must?
Don't put too much stock into what is publicly said. There is spin from both sides.

The NHL's offers have had linkage in the same form as it was the last CBA. The NHLPA's offers have not.

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Old
11-19-2012, 10:19 AM
  #758
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Sophisticated?
There offer was anything but sophisticated.

Gary Bettman thinks the best way to point to 50/50 --- WHICH EVERYONE KNEW HE WAS AFTER -- was make a ridiculous offer that essentially guaranteed cancellation of games?
How is it ridiculous ? It's Ok for players to get 57% but not Owners ? It went right over the thickskulled heads at the PA. If 57% is outragous for the owners share then guess what, it is just as outragous that the players get 57%.

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11-19-2012, 10:20 AM
  #759
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Why do you have an emotional response to an economic proposal? It's not rational behavior.
BS offers are irrational behavior.

Please explain how the 43 percent offer was rational.

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11-19-2012, 10:23 AM
  #760
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy77 View Post
Chris Johnston@reporterchris
NHL talks resume later today with a large group in NYC: Big Four, players, owners and at least one GM all expected to attend.

That one GM is probably Burke, I wonder who else will be there (if any).
I'm thinking it might be Burke too. Doesn't sound promising.

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Old
11-19-2012, 10:25 AM
  #761
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Meeting tonight is in New York, so they're not going to Toronto which makes some sense.

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11-19-2012, 10:25 AM
  #762
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Baloney.
The offer was symbolic in that it was a declaration of war.

It told everyone, once again, that the NHL owners were trying to by ballbusters and not deal makers. That they were more concerned with projecting strength and silly symbolism than getting a deal done.


I really dont see how you come to this conclusion. He flat out said the reasoning for the offer. It's not that outlandish to think, most posters on this board new exactly what they were after when the proposed it.

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11-19-2012, 10:25 AM
  #763
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveRaven View Post
How is it ridiculous ? It's Ok for players to get 57% but not Owners ? It went right over the thickskulled heads at the PA. If 57% is outragous for the owners share then guess what, it is just as outragous that the players get 57%.

The players got 57 percent because that's what they negotiated last time around in a CBA negotiation that caused hard feelings among hockey fans/players all over the world.

To come out on an ask for a DRAMATIC pay cut in your first offer (the 24 percent salary cut like last time), told the world that you were ready to cause all sorts of pain in the hockey world once again.

And look at that ... the NHL got exactly what it did last time ... a lockout that is causing pain for players/fans all over the world again.

The NHL got exactly what it asked for.

And even if you're right... even if the point went right over the heads of the "thickskulled" PA, as you put it ...

Then once again, it was a bad ploy by Bettman. Because if you're trying to make your point .... MAKE IT SO IT'S UNDERSTOOD .. or you've failed.

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Old
11-19-2012, 10:26 AM
  #764
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Originally Posted by czwalga View Post
I really dont see how you come to this conclusion. He flat out said the reasoning for the offer. It's not that outlandish to think, most posters on this board new exactly what they were after when the proposed it.
You don't see it? I've explained it. You just don't want to see it or ... whatever.

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11-19-2012, 10:27 AM
  #765
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy77 View Post
Don't put too much stock into what is publicly said. There is spin from both sides.

The NHL's offers have had linkage in the same form as it was the last CBA. The NHLPA's offers have not.
I'm asking for a quote.
Does anyone have a quote?

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Old
11-19-2012, 10:28 AM
  #766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
BS offers are irrational behavior.

Please explain how the 43 percent offer was rational.
It was exactly the same as the NBA's initial offer last year, which resolved at 50%.

It was where you had to start for the end goal (50) to be halfway between the two starting points (57 and 43).

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Old
11-19-2012, 10:28 AM
  #767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
BS offers are irrational behavior.

Please explain how the 43 percent offer was rational.
It's rational considering it's the first offer, it wasn't meant to be accepted only a framework to start negotiating. This offer would have occurred earlier in the summer or during the playoffs if the PA was ready to start negotiating but they decided to start in September probably since they perceived that they would have more leverage when owners are losing out on some revenues. Little did they know that owners actually have higher leverage in this scenario.

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11-19-2012, 10:28 AM
  #768
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
BS offers are irrational behavior.

Please explain how the 43 percent offer was rational.
It's only irrational if you think that 57% was a legitimate desire by the league. If you believe that it was only created as starting point so that the other side could meet them in the middle, it doesn't seem irrational at all.

Many people saw that opening offer as an means for players to lower their share while owners lower their requests. If you accept anything in a negotiation as irrational (unless an outrageous demand has no room to compromise or negotiate), then it's likely that it's simply you being irrational.

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Old
11-19-2012, 10:29 AM
  #769
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
You don't see it? I've explained it. You just don't want to see it or ... whatever.
Or maybe you've already decided how you want to see it and nothing anyone says will change your mind? Don't point fingers at the opposide side when you're guilty of doing the same.

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11-19-2012, 10:30 AM
  #770
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As much as everyone here likes to think that they're an expert on these negotiations, nobody is because we're not in the room when Bettman, Daly and the Fehr brothers are negotiating.

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11-19-2012, 10:30 AM
  #771
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailor Hopberle View Post
Wasn't the NFL's & NBA's initial offers close to the 43% that Bettman offered initially?
Yes. But apparently, when the NHL comes in with a lowball offer, omg, how dare they!

I can't believe some people are still caught up on it.

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Old
11-19-2012, 10:32 AM
  #772
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Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
Yes. But apparently, when the NHL comes in with a lowball offer, omg, how dare they!

I can't believe some people are still caught up on it.
Last time I checked, the NFL and NBA reached a CBA DESPITE that first offer presented by their respective leagues. Last time I checked, the NFL didn't lose any games on the season despite that first offer. NBA lost LESS games despite that offer.

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Old
11-19-2012, 10:33 AM
  #773
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Originally Posted by Scoobs View Post
As much as everyone here likes to think that they're an expert on these negotiations, nobody is because we're not in the room when Bettman, Daly and the Fehr brothers are negotiating.
I've said this several times. We can only speculate on what's going on and where each side truly stands. It's absolutely useless for people to behave like they're standing in the damn room listening to these talks as they go on.

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Old
11-19-2012, 10:33 AM
  #774
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy77 View Post

That one GM is probably Burke, I wonder who else will be there (if any).

Why would you assume it is Burke? On TV the other day he said he had been in some early meetings but hadn't been back lately. He also said he will attend if asked but that he is not about to approach the league about attending.

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Old
11-19-2012, 10:36 AM
  #775
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
The sad thing is they need to be there but are the worst thing that could happen to get a deal.
Well I guess to be fair, the people that need to be there are the lawyers. Bettman and Fehr just agree to the principles of the deal.

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