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Old
11-19-2012, 09:36 AM
  #276
BigMacJokinen
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
Not true at all.

If G was the Nucks biggest need Canucks fans answered and we would give up a lot.

I'd do Edler+. Most would do 1st + any prospect not named Kassian.
Yeah well a (very) late first + B prospect is even worse that many of Leafs proposals. So if someone thinks Leafs fans proposals are insulting, this would be too.

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11-19-2012, 10:03 AM
  #277
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Originally Posted by BigMacJokinen View Post
Yeah well a (very) late first + B prospect is even worse that many of Leafs proposals. So if someone thinks Leafs fans proposals are insulting, this would be too.
Jensen is not a B prospect.

The main reason we wouldn't trade Kassian is because of the price we paid for him. Hodgson was our equivalent of Gardiner.

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11-19-2012, 10:37 AM
  #278
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
1) Terrible? False. Please read up on the lengthy contract discussions
2) False but it still doesn't make him any less elite. Speaks more to the trust AV has in Schneider
3) Indeed, but since no list has been compiled Gillis can accept offers from 29 teams/drive up price.

If Burke is looking to acquire an elite talent for cheap he's speaking to the wrong team/GM.
I disagree with you on your third point. We all know that there are only so many places Lou will/can go. If Gillis could get that list from Lou and play those teams against each other I see the return increasing. Chitown for example doesn't care what Clb is offering as odds are Lou doesn't wanna go there.

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11-19-2012, 10:38 AM
  #279
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I am normally a Kadri basher, however, the kid is lighting it up right now. 14 points in 13 games...11 in the last 5 games. He is strong on the puck and evev threw a few hits against Abbotsford...thank you Mr. Roberts.
But he's still bad away from the puck. Putting up points in the AHL means nothing. We see it all the time players point per game or over and can't even get a sniff in the NHL.

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Old
11-19-2012, 10:41 AM
  #280
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I disagree with you on your third point. We all know that there are only so many places Lou will/can go. If Gillis could get that list from Lou and play those teams against each other I see the return increasing. Chitown for example doesn't care what Clb is offering as odds are Lou doesn't wanna go there.
But Gillis knows what the market will bare...he doesn't need to pit teams against eachother.

We know teams are interested, Gillis doesn't have to seek Roberto's approval to negotiate, just to finalize anything.

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11-19-2012, 10:44 AM
  #281
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And all of this may be true but we all know no GM in this league wants that much cap space tied up into two goalies. Just doesn't make sense.
And how do we know this? You are making inaccurate claims.

All we have to go on is the amount teams actually spend on goalies and what the Canucks GM actually said (as opposed to what you have made up).

He's said he is fine rolling with two goalies. I believe him.....

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11-19-2012, 10:45 AM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Nuck This View Post
But he's still bad away from the puck. Putting up points in the AHL means nothing. We see it all the time players point per game or over and can't even get a sniff in the NHL.
I'm sorry but unless you have watched kadri especially this year theres no way you can say that. At the AHL level kadri has never had a minus season, but more to the point this specific season he has been stronger on the puck and playing very well defensively. I know he gets a lot of hate from fans and leaf fans a like but don't use that as a basis for your argument.

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11-19-2012, 10:52 AM
  #283
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Originally Posted by ginner classic View Post
And how do we know this? You are making inaccurate claims.

All we have to go on is the amount teams actually spend on goalies and what the Canucks GM actually said (as opposed to what you have made up).

He's said he is fine rolling with two goalies. I believe him.....



To what end? Gillis is fine rolling with two goalies, but for how long? Not indefinitely. He can't. So Luongo will be moved eventually. It's just a question of when.

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11-19-2012, 10:54 AM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Nuck This View Post
But he's still bad away from the puck. Putting up points in the AHL means nothing. We see it all the time players point per game or over and can't even get a sniff in the NHL.
One thing that highlights the lack of insight in your in-depth report is that, Kadri has played well when called up. In fact he's been the best player on the ice in some games. His play away from the puck isn't bad as you state. He had a penchant for trying to carry the puck through the neutral zone and causing turnovers at times. This drove Wilson crazy, even though he played well in other areas. Note: this isn't poor play away from the puck - this is trying to do too much with it.

Kadri also isn't afraid to mix it up. He's still maturing and filling out. Just take a look at the Sedins and Kesler to figure out how long it took them to mature and you'll see the kid still has time.

That said I'd be more than thrilled if Kadri doesn't get included in any deal for a 34 year old goalie (likely age when the lockout ends), with signs of cracks and a lifetime contract. Especially when Tim Thomas will likely want to get as far away from the Whitehouse as possible and welcome a one, or two year deal. I'm thinking if he's upset with Boston -- there's no better place than T.O. to stick it to them. Also, last time I checked Thomas was a better goalie than Luongo.

So here's hoping that Gillis asks for 12 firsts and thinks Kadri is a bum -- forcing Burke to move in another direction.


Last edited by birddog*: 11-19-2012 at 11:00 AM.
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Old
11-19-2012, 10:56 AM
  #285
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This is spot on, but what you haven't factored in is the risk reward in regards to this trade. If we trade a decent roster player a mid level prospect and a 1st in 2014 to van for lou then the risk seems appropriate because that would be the value needed to give up to get toronto into the playoffs. Now on the other hand if we give up a top prospect or high end roster player for lou even just to make the playoffs, the risk in trading said high end players is no longer appropriate. Toronto is not a cup contender now and may not be for a few years, so the risk of letting top flight players go for lou is not worth the reward of an early playoff exit. Also just to be fair this entire post can be flipped around and used the same way for van city as well, and that is why a deal cannot be agreed upon by both fan bases.
This is why toronto cant trade a highend package for lou, it's not that he's not worth it it's just we can afford to part with what van city's percieved value of lou is.

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11-19-2012, 11:00 AM
  #286
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Originally Posted by birddog View Post
One thing that highlights the lack of insight in your in-depth report is that, Kadri has played well when called up. In fact he's been the best player on the ice in some games. His play away from the puck isn't bad as you state. He had a penchant for trying to carry the puck through the neutral zone and causing turnovers at times. This drove Wilson crazy, even though he played well in other ares. Note: this isn't poor play away from the puck. This is trying to do too much with it.

Kadri also isn't afraid to mix it up. He's still maturing and filling out. Just take a look at the Sedins and Kesler to figure out how long it took them to mature and you'll see the kid still has time.

That said I'd be more than thrilled if Kadri doesn't get included in any deal for a 34 year old goalie (likely age when the lockout ends) with signs of cracks and a lifetime contract.. Especially when Tim Thomas will likely want to get as far away from the Whitehouse as possible and welcome a one or two year deal. I'm thinking if he's upset with Boston -- there's no better place than T.O. to stick it to them. Aslo, last time I checked Thomas was a better goalie than Luongo.

So here's hoping that Gillis asks for 12 firsts and thinks Kadri is a bum -- forcing Burke to move in another direction.
I agree 100% with this. Toronto is not close to contending for a cup, let lou go to another team trying for a cup run and if we happen to suck again well that's the way it goes. Eventually the leafs will get better we just cant sacrifice pieces for an elite goalie that doesnt fit our future cup window.

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Old
11-19-2012, 11:00 AM
  #287
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Originally Posted by BigMacJokinen View Post
Yeah well a (very) late first + B prospect is even worse that many of Leafs proposals. So if someone thinks Leafs fans proposals are insulting, this would be too.
That's Edler, 1st, and a prospect not named Kassian. Edler is a better player then anyone offered in these threads for Lu, so unless you want to add to Phaneuf, we're still worlds away.

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Old
11-19-2012, 11:05 AM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
That's Edler, 1st, and a prospect not named Kassian. Edler is a better player then anyone offered in these threads for Lu, so unless you want to add to Phaneuf, we're still worlds away.
I think you guys need to find another team to trade lou to, toronto in principal is a good fit but when you really look at it were really not. By the time were ready to compete for a cup lou probably wont be the elite goalie he is now, the trade just doesnt make sense unless toronto gets him for a great price, but then how does letting an elite goalie go for a great price work for van city, not good lol.

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11-19-2012, 11:12 AM
  #289
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Originally Posted by Hockey 4 Life View Post
I think you guys need to find another team to trade lou to, toronto in principal is a good fit but when you really look at it were really not. By the time were ready to compete for a cup lou probably wont be the elite goalie he is now, the trade just doesnt make sense unless toronto gets him for a great price, but then how does letting an elite goalie go for a great price work for van city, not good lol.


Assuming TO is ready to compete for the cup in the foreseeable future. This is not an eventuality. Best laid plans and all... Good GMs can build good teams that never get a sniff. Even when they are expected to.



Put on the other side of the fence, I would think Gillis would be an foolish not to pay a _fair_ price, not pennies on the dollar, for a high end player that directly addresses a need. Period. It wouldn't have to do with rebuild plans but addressing a clear need with a superfluous asset from another team. Because odds are, an asset like this seldom becomes available. One may never get a second chance.

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11-19-2012, 11:19 AM
  #290
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Assuming TO is ready to compete for the cup in the foreseeable future. This is not an eventuality. Best laid plans and all... Good GMs can build good teams that never get a sniff. Even when they are expected to.



Put on the other side of the fence, I would think Gillis would be an foolish not to pay a _fair_ price, not pennies on the dollar, for a high end player that directly addresses a need. Period. It wouldn't have to do with rebuild plans but addressing a clear need with a superfluous asset from another team. Because odds are, an asset like this seldom becomes available. One may never get a second chance.
Thats why van city would need to deal lou to a team that could give them max value, which would be a team that atleast made the playoffs last year. Toronto needs lou but not at the cost vancouver needs to part with lou. Also toronto is not ready to compete for the cup barring some massive trades or big break outs from minor league players, so I tend to be cautious of my expectations, and stick to my original point that lou is not a good fit for this team.

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11-19-2012, 11:21 AM
  #291
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Originally Posted by birddog View Post
One thing that highlights the lack of insight in your in-depth report is that, Kadri has played well when called up. In fact he's been the best player on the ice in some games. His play away from the puck isn't bad as you state. He had a penchant for trying to carry the puck through the neutral zone and causing turnovers at times. This drove Wilson crazy, even though he played well in other areas. Note: this isn't poor play away from the puck - this is trying to do too much with it.

Kadri also isn't afraid to mix it up. He's still maturing and filling out. Just take a look at the Sedins and Kesler to figure out how long it took them to mature and you'll see the kid still has time.

That said I'd be more than thrilled if Kadri doesn't get included in any deal for a 34 year old goalie (likely age when the lockout ends), with signs of cracks and a lifetime contract. Especially when Tim Thomas will likely want to get as far away from the Whitehouse as possible and welcome a one, or two year deal. I'm thinking if he's upset with Boston -- there's no better place than T.O. to stick it to them. Also, last time I checked Thomas was a better goalie than Luongo.

So here's hoping that Gillis asks for 12 firsts and thinks Kadri is a bum -- forcing Burke to move in another direction.
I love it, rag on the 34 year old goalie but have no problem going with a 39 year old flake.

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11-19-2012, 11:25 AM
  #292
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I love it, rag on the 34 year old goalie but have no problem going with a 39 year old flake.
Lou would be a better long term option for the leafs then thomas would but I think he was just trying to highlight how wrong the other poster was about kadri, and then kinda took it to far the other way with stating he would rather have thomas then lou.

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11-19-2012, 11:32 AM
  #293
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Originally Posted by Hockey 4 Life View Post
Lou would be a better long term option for the leafs then thomas would but I think he was just trying to highlight how wrong the other poster was about kadri, and then kinda took it to far the other way with stating he would rather have thomas then lou.
That is fair.

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11-19-2012, 11:36 AM
  #294
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
Having two mediocre goalies is a goalie controversy.



What's an A+ package? I'm sure most would agree that Nash didn't receive an "A+ package". A Leafs equivalent of that would be perfectly acceptable.

When packages start with #4Cs and #6 dman + B prospects the goalie Leafs should be targeting are Niemi/Crawford.
I think most would agree this is because Howson is not an A+ Gm, lol....he had better options at the deadline.

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11-19-2012, 11:39 AM
  #295
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Originally Posted by WonderTwinsUnite View Post
Alright. Change Kadri to Colborne? Is he more valued than Kadri as well?

I'm of the mind that Kadri won't pan out in the NHL, definitely not with a talent laden team like Vancouver.
I'm good with that.


To Van:
Raymond
Luongo

To Tor:
MacArthur
Colborne
Franson
1st (top 10 protected)

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11-19-2012, 11:40 AM
  #296
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
I agree that's a high asking price, but does anyone actually take Damien Cox word on anything? I mean as someone unconnected to the Leafs, he seems like that drunk guy at the bar, a "our team is the best, the stats don't mean anything, I'm right everyones wrong" kind of guy.
LOL, Cox borderline hates the Leafs, so he isn't that drunk guy at the bar, he is a different drunk guy. I don't like a lot of what Cox writes, but he rarely shoots his mouth off about rumours unless he has a good source. That I will give him credit for.

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11-19-2012, 11:42 AM
  #297
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No Lupul for you. Unless you're adding Kesler.
UMMMMM, LOL, seriously? and I'm a leaf fan...all I can say is wow

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11-19-2012, 11:43 AM
  #298
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Thats why van city would need to deal lou to a team that could give them max value, which would be a team that atleast made the playoffs last year. Toronto needs lou but not at the cost vancouver needs to part with lou. Also toronto is not ready to compete for the cup barring some massive trades or big break outs from minor league players, so I tend to be cautious of my expectations, and stick to my original point that lou is not a good fit for this team.


Luongo is as good a fit as you will find. No team is going to give up better value to a team that has the exact position of need that TO does.



I keep hearing TO is not ready to compete for the cup and I wonder: Why does it have to be all or nothing? Doesn't competing for the playoffs come first? Stages in team development are not linear. TO may never be in a position to compete for the cup. It could be 10 yrs out. Or 20. Or 2 years. The point being, there are not guarantees in sport. Take advantage of opportunities when they are present.



Some VAN fans are already resigned to the fact that any deal involving Luongo likely makes them worse. They are expecting to "lose" this deal by losing the best player in the trade. Even then, they hope Gillis can get something of use. Not even max value, just something useful.

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11-19-2012, 11:45 AM
  #299
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
Why wouldn't Gillis do a trade like that next off-season?
He may choose to not do a trade like that a season later as to risk something going wrong and decreasing value of a player because of circumstances not in his control.

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11-19-2012, 11:46 AM
  #300
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I think most would agree this is because Howson is not an A+ Gm, lol....he had better options at the deadline.
And he would have had better options if he waited too.

Howson effed that situation up royally, but I still like the package they got.

2 - 20 goal scorers a very solid defensman prospect close to being NHL ready and a 1st round pick.

The other problem was the assets moved out for Bobvrosky (a question mark in goal in my eyes).

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