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Old
11-19-2012, 12:23 PM
  #651
Andy
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Because he does? He's a great hockey analyst and his observations are pragmatic and spot-on but when it comes to this current lockout, with his position and prominence he hasn't said much of anything. The league is in the wrong, and have been in the wrong since July 2. The league's rich owners are some slimy, creepy creatures - Leopold, Jacobs and so on. Mac could, and should have, brought to light how it's not Owners v. Players as much as it is Rich Owners v. Poor Owners vis-a-vis Revenue Sharing and salary limits.

This is only compounded by the tons of evidence of him taking the league's side no matter what on disciplinary matters, suspensions and fines.
But he has criticized the league during this lockout, on various occasions, so again I really don't see how he's sucking the league's teat. Just last week he went and criticized the league on wanting to have max contracts and how its stalling negotiations and how it is not necessary. Just one example.

Also, the fact that you put 100% of the blame on the league shows your bias. Both sides are in the wrong.

Speaking of being one sided, why don't you bring to light the fact that it was Fehr who didn't want to negotiate at the beginning of last season, who waited all the way until the summer to start, or the fact that he shows up to negotiations late on purpose, leaves for 3 hours when he wants to re-fill his cup of water and presents the league with no counter offers over and over again? Or how about the fact like your 'rich vs poor owners" there are certain players that are dominating the negotiations with their views over others. To think the players are united is foolish. Pierre McGuire has even spoken of this how some players feel like their views aren't being represented and how they feel they are being bossed around by the PA.

Both sides are being completely ridiculous, how you cannot admit this is equally as ridiculous.

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Old
11-19-2012, 12:58 PM
  #652
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
But he has criticized the league during this lockout, on various occasions, so again I really don't see how he's sucking the league's teat. Just last week he went and criticized the league on wanting to have max contracts and how its stalling negotiations and how it is not necessary. Just one example.
His criticism is much lighter than I'd prefer. The sheer amount of ******** the league has spewed (not to mention the astounding level of unprofessionalism on behalf of the NHL - 3 lockouts in less than 20 years?) calls for much much more criticism.

Quote:
Also, the fact that you put 100% of the blame on the league shows your bias. Both sides are in the wrong.
I'm tired of this fallacious thinking. One side holds all the leverage, the other side does all the work. Last lockout I was not on the PA's side because it was true, with no salary cap and psychotic contracts (which some owners happily dished out) the league was in bad shape. Since then the Canadian dollar shot up and the league rebounded and now the owners are in the wrong.

I repeat: the NHL is much more wrong than the NHLPA.

Quote:
Speaking of being one sided, why don't you bring to light the fact that it was Fehr who didn't want to negotiate at the beginning of last season, who waited all the way until the summer to start, or the fact that he shows up to negotiations late on purpose, leaves for 3 hours when he wants to re-fill his cup of water and presents the league with no counter offers over and over again? Or how about the fact like your 'rich vs poor owners" there are certain players that are dominating the negotiations with their views over others. To think the players are united is foolish. Pierre McGuire has even spoken of this how some players feel like their views aren't being represented and how they feel they are being bossed around by the PA.
Regarding this boogeyman Fehr: Fehr is like the PA's lawyer. He has his methods and Bettman has his. Fehr has no real say in the matter and if the PA (within their democratic guidelines) decided that didn't like his style or trust him anymore they would give him the boot without a second thought. They want Fehr, they like Fehr's tactics so that's that.

They had no interest in re-negotiating during the season because they held no leverage - the owners hadn't lost revenue. And it's been really, really clear that the with the league's increasingly improving offers that the NHLPA's move was a well planned. On July 2 they were offered a nearly 20% paycut, now it's 7%. The players decided to sacrifice part of their salary in order to benefit the NHLPA as a whole.

Of course some players are going to grumble, it's a union not a blank faceless army. But by and large the players feel hard-done by the league and their underhanded tactics (such as leaking info out to Bobby Mack before the NHLPA can offer a statement about it)

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Both sides are being completely ridiculous, how you cannot admit this is equally as ridiculous.
No they're not. I'm against a lot of what the PA does to the league but in this fight the NHL and the ultra-rich old white men that own the teams are the *******s.

Leopold signed Parise and Suter to giant mega-deals just so he can cut down their salaries by 20% a few months later. They'd lose 20m+ each. What a ******* move.

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Old
11-19-2012, 01:17 PM
  #653
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The notion that his league is well off is faulty.

A league that makes profit and a bulk of its revenue in only a handful or two of markets, should not be considered overall healthy and sustainable.

All those games you see in front of empty seats are costing the league Hundreds of millions. Billions over an agreement term of 7 years.

The owners are trying to adjust to help these franchises before the bubble explodes.

Players have a hard time acknowledging the reality because they too see the picture only from the birds eye that shows a handful of market pulling the weight.

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Old
11-19-2012, 01:27 PM
  #654
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
The notion that his league is well off is faulty.

A league that makes profit and a bulk of its revenue in only a handful or two of markets, should not be considered overall healthy and sustainable.

All those games you see in front of empty seats are costing the league Hundreds of millions. Billions over an agreement term of 7 years.

The owners are trying to adjust to help these franchises before the bubble explodes.

Players have a hard time acknowledging the reality because they too see the picture only from the birds eye that shows a handful of market pulling the weight.
I agree with this, however I will say that it might be just delaying the inevitable. The NHL took big risks in establishing themselves where people didn't even know what hockey was. Maybe they should just contract now and solve the CBA issue with the players point of view. That would at least yield some revenues in the markets that make them for this season.

edit: and without hiding it.. make it possible for the habs to draft Gudbranson

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11-19-2012, 02:27 PM
  #655
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
His criticism is much lighter than I'd prefer. The sheer amount of ******** the league has spewed (not to mention the astounding level of unprofessionalism on behalf of the NHL - 3 lockouts in less than 20 years?) calls for much much more criticism.



I'm tired of this fallacious thinking. One side holds all the leverage, the other side does all the work. Last lockout I was not on the PA's side because it was true, with no salary cap and psychotic contracts (which some owners happily dished out) the league was in bad shape. Since then the Canadian dollar shot up and the league rebounded and now the owners are in the wrong.

I repeat: the NHL is much more wrong than the NHLPA.

Does it really mater who is 'much more' wrong?

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11-19-2012, 02:37 PM
  #656
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Originally Posted by vokiel View Post
I agree with this, however I will say that it might be just delaying the inevitable. The NHL took big risks in establishing themselves where people didn't even know what hockey was. Maybe they should just contract now and solve the CBA issue with the players point of view. That would at least yield some revenues in the markets that make them for this season.

edit: and without hiding it.. make it possible for the habs to draft Gudbranson
Contraction is inevitable, it will be the next big issue imo. This lockout is the last of our troubles.

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Old
11-19-2012, 03:24 PM
  #657
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I want the season to be locked out into January. We've lost to Russia 2 years in a row, it's time to call in the big guns. RNH all up in this.

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Old
11-19-2012, 03:27 PM
  #658
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
The notion that his league is well off is faulty.

A league that makes profit and a bulk of its revenue in only a handful or two of markets, should not be considered overall healthy and sustainable.

All those games you see in front of empty seats are costing the league Hundreds of millions. Billions over an agreement term of 7 years.

The owners are trying to adjust to help these franchises before the bubble explodes.

Players have a hard time acknowledging the reality because they too see the picture only from the birds eye that shows a handful of market pulling the weight.
are they ? really ?

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Old
11-19-2012, 03:32 PM
  #659
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
I want the season to be locked out into January. We've lost to Russia 2 years in a row, it's time to call in the big guns. RNH all up in this.
RNH vs Yakupov?

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Old
11-19-2012, 03:36 PM
  #660
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
are they ? really ?
What is calling BS on this going to change exactly if they're not? You think players could to go court and continue the finger pointing name calling game?

I don't.

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Old
11-19-2012, 03:40 PM
  #661
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What is calling BS on this going to change exactly if they're not? You think players could to go court and continue the finger pointing name calling game?

I don't.
they've done squat to help franchises such as Florida, Tampa, Columbus, Phoenix and a few others over the last decade...

but this lock out is to help those poorer franchises ? that's the intention behind all this ? really ?


come on now, be serious for a sec.

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Old
11-19-2012, 03:55 PM
  #662
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Originally Posted by DoingItLeBlancWay View Post
RNH vs Yakupov?
Bring it!

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Old
11-19-2012, 04:04 PM
  #663
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
No they're not. I'm against a lot of what the PA does to the league but in this fight the NHL and the ultra-rich old white men that own the teams are the *******s.

Leopold signed Parise and Suter to giant mega-deals just so he can cut down their salaries by 20% a few months later. They'd lose 20m+ each. What a ******* move.
Well first off, I don't think it really matters. The guy is trying to improve his team and unless he dished out huge chunks of cash, he wasn't getting Parise/Suter. Now, salary rollbacks is talked about and some owners want it, he has every right to be for it as well.

Second, they're talking about a 12% rollback, not 20. That means Parise and Suter would lose 11.76M over their 13 year contract. That's less than 1M per year. Not to mention, they have 25M secured as signing bonuses over the first three years.

All in all, next year, instead of making 12M, they would make 10.56M (without counting the 10 bonus). Cry me a freaking river would you?

Keep in mind, if they don't play this year, they miss out on more than the 12% rollback being asked. They would lose 12M this year if the season is fully canceled as opposed to 11.76M over 13years.

As I previously mentioned, both sides are losers, but now the players aren't even capable of cutting their losses short. It's looking a lot more like an ego match between Fehr and Bettman.
.

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Old
11-19-2012, 04:09 PM
  #664
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
they've done squat to help franchises such as Florida, Tampa, Columbus, Phoenix and a few others over the last decade...

but this lock out is to help those poorer franchises ? that's the intention behind all this ? really ?


come on now, be serious for a sec.
No they haven't done squat. There was already revenue sharing in place for those teams before the players and owners decided it wasn't enough. They're increasing it and apparently both sides agreed on the increase. Plus the league, the other 29 owners, bought the Coyotes out of bankruptcy. Take off the tin foil hat for a bit and I hope the players do the same, otherwise no season.

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11-19-2012, 04:11 PM
  #665
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
they've done squat to help franchises such as Florida, Tampa, Columbus, Phoenix and a few others over the last decade...

but this lock out is to help those poorer franchises ? that's the intention behind all this ? really ?


come on now, be serious for a sec.
Well it does help those franchises when you put a limit on the contracts. Some of them don't really have the luxury to give out huge long term deals.
How do you compete in a bidding war if the most you can do is 5 or 6 years @ 8M, but then another is throwing 10-13years into the mix?

And revenue sharing as well..

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11-19-2012, 04:35 PM
  #666
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Well it does help those franchises when you put a limit on the contracts. Some of them don't really have the luxury to give out huge long term deals.
How do you compete in a bidding war if the most you can do is 5 or 6 years @ 8M, but then another is throwing 10-13years into the mix?

And revenue sharing as well..
One has to ask the question. Why did they expand there in the first place?

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11-19-2012, 04:52 PM
  #667
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
they've done squat to help franchises such as Florida, Tampa, Columbus, Phoenix and a few others over the last decade...

but this lock out is to help those poorer franchises ? that's the intention behind all this ? really ?


come on now, be serious for a sec.
how many teams are making more money (ie: not losing millions and millions on salaries on a cap they can't afford) by not playing?

I don't know the number off heart but I'm sure it's quite a few.

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11-19-2012, 05:00 PM
  #668
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
how many teams are making more money (ie: not losing millions and millions on salaries on a cap they can't afford) by not playing?

I don't know the number off heart but I'm sure it's quite a few.
All teams still receive the money from the NBC deal even during a lockout. It means 6 millions dollars for each teams. That help some of the owners of covering alot of their expenses during the lockout and even more teams than we thought are losing less money than during a season. The owners will win badly if the players are waiting too much.

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11-19-2012, 05:14 PM
  #669
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One has to ask the question. Why did they expand there in the first place?
There's no doubt that it's a failed mission. Moving hockey to the south is just moronic, you don't need to be a genius to figure out it'll likely fail. Main reason why Bettman should get booted out. His league is not doing all that well, his main mission has failed, and he's put hockey in lockouts on more than one occasion, not to mention some of the controversies and scandals. If it weren't for the rise of the Canadian dollar, with huge franchises like Toronto and Montreal, the NHL would be a bankrupt league.

What's done is done though. Right now, they need to find an agreement and move forward. After, they can replace Bettman.

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11-19-2012, 05:52 PM
  #670
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Anyone know how the draft would work if this season is cancelled?

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11-19-2012, 06:04 PM
  #671
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I'm surprised that the education system is so bad that people end up thinking contraction is a solution.

Fact: contraction would solve no problems.

If you remove the 4 weakest teams in the league, say teams 27-30, then you end up with the teams currently 23-26 as the new 4 weakest teams. Since average revenue per team has risen (as you've removed teams 27-30), teams 23-26 are now further below the revenue average than they were before contraction, and the league would be back to square one.

Take a look at Forbes ranking of NHL teams by operating income. It is a smooth distribution with the exception of Phoenix, for whom the best solution is relocation.

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11-19-2012, 06:08 PM
  #672
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One has to ask the question. Why did they expand there in the first place?
Same reasoon they expanded to California in the 80s and 90s: to grow the game.

The goal is to eventually have a rich, national TV deal. That's how baseball is making record revenues year in and year out in the post-Fehr era: record TV deals every year. If you have public support throughout the country, you can get a large national TV deal.

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11-19-2012, 06:10 PM
  #673
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The canadian dollar was 63cents compared to the US a decade plus ago.With increase in revenue with Montreal and Toronto bigger local contracts its made a big difference.

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11-19-2012, 06:15 PM
  #674
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The canadian dollar was 63cents compared to the US a decade plus ago.With increase in revenue with Montreal and Toronto bigger local contracts its made a big difference.
The Canadian dollar spent very little time at 63 cents, seeing as how that was the record low.

It was at ~85 cents when the last CBA was negotiated.


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Old
11-19-2012, 06:28 PM
  #675
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Anyone know how the draft would work if this season is cancelled?
I think they would do a lottery of equal opportunity for all teams. Isn't that what they did last time?

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