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Phoenix LXIV: Will You Still Need Me, Will You Still Read Me, on Thread LXIV?

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Old
11-19-2012, 12:03 PM
  #826
Fidel Astro
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Originally Posted by NHLfan4life View Post
As has been said and proven many times over, the Jets had the lowest ticket prices at the time and the lowest attendance. They didn't support their team at that time. Sure, they had lots of fans but they weren't going to the games. They had a last minute rally with 8000 fans but it was too late. Nobody (government or otherwise) wanted to pay to keep the team there. It wasn't just the NHL not wanting to bend over backwards, it was that there was nobody to negotiate with to keep them there. Winnipeg basically said NOPE.
I have a question here, and maybe this is something a moderator or someone could answer: this Jets history stuff constantly comes up, and there's constantly misinformation, like in the quoted post, which is just full of it.

I realize most of this is easy verifiable, but not everyone is going to head over to Google to confirm it (or find out how much of it is ********). I feel that blatant lies like this (as an example, the attendance at the Save the Jets rally is clearly far greater than 8,000 just by looking at 10 seconds of the video on YouTube) just continue to muddy the waters, and people are going to see this kind of crap and later pass it off as fact in their own arguments.

Is there some way to have a sticky topic (or something) posted with solid, sourced information about the Jets 1.0 so whenever this stuff comes up, anyone spreading misinformation can just be pointed to a source of actual facts? I just feel like a lot of the aggression Coyotes fans have toward Jets fans (now that we're not trying to "poach" "their" team anymore) is based on factual inaccuracies... and this stuff has been rehashed so many times, it's almost pointless to set one person straight in a popular thread like this, because it'll just get buried and the same garbage repeated a few pages later.

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Old
11-19-2012, 12:20 PM
  #827
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^ Yeah it was something like 25,000 people to the rally. Glendale's Save the Yotes rally was 150-200 if I'm not mistaken?

Further the only variable in either case is the team, otherwise both markets were in very different settings.

IE Jets 1.0
- Dealing with very low Canadian Dollar ($0.60 to $1 greenback).
- Public ownership of an otherwise derelict arena (most of the upper deck was obstructed view, yes I've sat there, yes it was scary as a kid).
- Owner didn't want the team anymore
- Our elected officials were smart enough to say "no money for you"

Coyotes:
- Economy is still struggling, tons of people out of work (won't bode well to fire more, now would it?! But that's for another discussion).
- Brand new state of the art arena (what's the problem? Hell if the Jets 1.0 had a new rink we wouldn't have lost them, that was Shenkarow's biggest problem, no new arena in site).
- Elected officials are sticking their noses where it doesn't belong into a private sector.
- Owner doesn't want the team anymore.

Okay maybe two variables...

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11-19-2012, 12:23 PM
  #828
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Originally Posted by blues10 View Post
If he was serious about this deal wouldn't he have given up his ownership stake in the San Jose Sharks over a year ago?

GJ remains a partial proud owner of the Sharks or l'ill gary and willy d's strawman
The new owner of the Cleveland Browns hasn't finished selling his interest in the Steelers. In his case as soon as he started negotiating with the Browns he divorced himself from any involvement and he isn't allowed access to Steelers info and operations anymore.

Besides Bell is allowed to own pieces of the Leafs and Habs.

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11-19-2012, 12:45 PM
  #829
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Originally Posted by aqib View Post
The new owner of the Cleveland Browns hasn't finished selling his interest in the Steelers. In his case as soon as he started negotiating with the Browns he divorced himself from any involvement and he isn't allowed access to Steelers info and operations anymore.

Besides Bell is allowed to own pieces of the Leafs and Habs.
The issue isn't ownership but the fact that he would be the "controlling owner" of the Coyotes (controlling meaning the president not ncessarily the majority owner). A minority ownership in both clubs would be allowed, but once you are in charge of a club you can't have a stake in another club.

Baisically you can have wonership stakes in upto 3 clubs as long as only one of the clubs is >10% stake and is less than 30%. If you are a director or president or whatever of a club, or have >30% stake you cannot have a stake in any other club.


Article XIII of the NHL constitution: [Mod: auto download, click with care, plus it's here in the BOH sticky section]
http://bizofhockey.com/docs/NHLConsitution.pdf


Last edited by Fugu: 11-19-2012 at 01:17 PM. Reason: ...
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11-19-2012, 01:37 PM
  #830
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Originally Posted by Fidel Astro View Post
I have a question here, and maybe this is something a moderator or someone could answer: this Jets history stuff constantly comes up, and there's constantly misinformation, like in the quoted post, which is just full of it.

I realize most of this is easy verifiable, but not everyone is going to head over to Google to confirm it (or find out how much of it is ********). I feel that blatant lies like this (as an example, the attendance at the Save the Jets rally is clearly far greater than 8,000 just by looking at 10 seconds of the video on YouTube) just continue to muddy the waters, and people are going to see this kind of crap and later pass it off as fact in their own arguments.

Is there some way to have a sticky topic (or something) posted with solid, sourced information about the Jets 1.0 so whenever this stuff comes up, anyone spreading misinformation can just be pointed to a source of actual facts? I just feel like a lot of the aggression Coyotes fans have toward Jets fans (now that we're not trying to "poach" "their" team anymore) is based on factual inaccuracies... and this stuff has been rehashed so many times, it's almost pointless to set one person straight in a popular thread like this, because it'll just get buried and the same garbage repeated a few pages later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmidd12 View Post
^ Yeah it was something like 25,000 people to the rally. Glendale's Save the Yotes rally was 150-200 if I'm not mistaken?

Further the only variable in either case is the team, otherwise both markets were in very different settings.

IE Jets 1.0
- Dealing with very low Canadian Dollar ($0.60 to $1 greenback).
- Public ownership of an otherwise derelict arena (most of the upper deck was obstructed view, yes I've sat there, yes it was scary as a kid).
- Owner didn't want the team anymore
- Our elected officials were smart enough to say "no money for you"

Coyotes:
- Economy is still struggling, tons of people out of work (won't bode well to fire more, now would it?! But that's for another discussion).
- Brand new state of the art arena (what's the problem? Hell if the Jets 1.0 had a new rink we wouldn't have lost them, that was Shenkarow's biggest problem, no new arena in site).
- Elected officials are sticking their noses where it doesn't belong into a private sector.
- Owner doesn't want the team anymore.

Okay maybe two variables...
Quote:
Originally Posted by NHLfan4life View Post
As has been said and proven many times over, the Jets had the lowest ticket prices at the time and the lowest attendance. They didn't support their team at that time. Sure, they had lots of fans but they weren't going to the games. They had a last minute rally with 8000 fans but it was too late. Nobody (government or otherwise) wanted to pay to keep the team there. It wasn't just the NHL not wanting to bend over backwards, it was that there was nobody to negotiate with to keep them there. Winnipeg basically said NOPE.
All I can say is what is good for the goose....

There is a lot of misinformation from both sides. You can have have as many threads with the proper information and the postings will still happen. Just ignore the posts and life is good.

It is like trying to convince Donald trump that Obama is a naturalized American citizen. Just will not happen.

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Old
11-19-2012, 01:50 PM
  #831
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fidel Astro View Post
I have a question here, and maybe this is something a moderator or someone could answer: this Jets history stuff constantly comes up, and there's constantly misinformation, like in the quoted post, which is just full of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aj8000 View Post
There is a lot of misinformation from both sides. You can have have as many threads with the proper information and the postings will still happen. Just ignore the posts and life is good.
... you can either ignore it or correct it, but theres really no way to stop it short of self policing amongst the active regulars on any given thread. There are simply too many incoming posts for the Moderators to start parsing numerical claims of this nature unless its either Reported or blatantly false and one of them catches it. These folks are all volunteers who unfortunately have to deal with far worse transgressions than someone either deliberately or mistakenly downgrading the total numbers of a rally held 17yrs ago.

in Winnipeg. On a Phoenix thread.


Last edited by Killion: 11-19-2012 at 01:56 PM.
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Old
11-19-2012, 02:08 PM
  #832
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All I can say is what is good for the goose....

There is a lot of misinformation from both sides. You can have have as many threads with the proper information and the postings will still happen. Just ignore the posts and life is good.
Well, you're right, in a way. There's misinformation on both sides, for sure. However, the Coyotes stuff is happening now, in an era where every aspect of the proceedings is easily sourced online, and there are a half-dozen (at least) publications covering the ins and outs.

Not so for the Jets back in the 90s. There's a distinct lack of primary sources available, as newspapers didn't post their articles online back then the way they do today. Also, because of the length of time that has passed, it's much easier to misrepresent that information. I'm sure there are people here who were only babies when all of that went down... maybe even some, at a stretch, who weren't even born yet. So their knowledge of the details is mainly through word-of-mouth or quick online summaries of the situation.

...which is fine, but it definitely allows for misinfo to be propagated.

So I don't think there's an equal amount of ******** going on. I can go on here and say "the Coyotes barely attracted more than AHL attendance at their last game," for example, and then immediately look up their official attendance numbers, plus the top AHL attendance (from the AHL's site) for that day.

If someone is saying "the Jets rally only attracted 8,000 people," accurate attendance info isn't right at the fingertips, because it's decade-and-a-half old news. The insulting part, though, is that there are people here who were at that rally. I'm one of 'em. I was a teenager when the Jets left. I remember it quite well. So some guy from Arizona who probably couldn't even find Winnipeg on a map telling me that something I *attended* had drastically less people than it did is just... it's ridiculous.

...and, sorry to rant a little bit here, but I honestly feel like that kind of attitude has created the poisonous tension between the two fanbases. I'll be the first to admit that I've said some horrible **** to Coyotes fans, and to this day, I would spit on a Yotes jersey if someone walked past me in one. I absolutely ****ing loathe that team. ...but at least my anti-Coyotes screeds, once you remove all the foul language, are based on actual facts, you know?

I mean, if I criticize Yotes fans for not showing up to support their team at the time they need it most, that's not exactly something that can be debated. The team does need support, since it's losing money hand-over-fist, and the fans have been apathetic at best.

When they respond, though, it's either "Winnipeg is a frozen ****hole and **** everyone who lives there" or it's insert-complete-********-"fact"-here.

It's frustrating. When we got our team again, I really hoped the Coyotes fans would lay off. I think Winnipeg has proven that, contrary to what they've been saying for years, we can and will support a team, we are a strong hockey market, and players do want to live and work in Winnipeg.

...but no. They keep heaping **** on us, and then get all pissy whenever anyone suggests their team should be relocated. Like the evil Winnipeggers are somehow ganging up on them. Gimme a break.

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11-19-2012, 02:11 PM
  #833
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... far worse transgressions than someone either deliberately or mistakenly downgrading the total numbers of a rally held 17yrs ago.

in Winnipeg. On a Phoenix thread.
As a Winnipegger, though, that's a pretty big transgression. It might not be relevant to other people, but when you're from either of the cities involved, a lot of this stuff gets taken personally, y'naw mean?

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11-19-2012, 02:30 PM
  #834
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...y'naw mean?
... huh? Ya'll got sumthin stuck in yer craw? I recommend you just step outside, jump on the Arctic Cat & go for a ride to clear your head. Mind the barbed wire, and stay off the lake, ice isnt "quite" ready yet. Another day or two though, good to go.

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Old
11-19-2012, 02:32 PM
  #835
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Originally Posted by Fidel Astro View Post
As a Winnipegger, though, that's a pretty big transgression. It might not be relevant to other people, but when you're from either of the cities involved, a lot of this stuff gets taken personally, y'naw mean?
I am from Winnipeg. I have heard the comments, seen the posts regarding Winnipeg. I have also seen the posts regarding Arizona. I do not take it personally. People will always make fun of our weather, so be it.

Misinformation will be always be posted if it furthers the posters agenda or makes them feel good insulting the other city.

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11-19-2012, 02:42 PM
  #836
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I am from Winnipeg. I have heard the comments, seen the posts regarding Winnipeg. I have also seen the posts regarding Arizona. I do not take it personally. People will always make fun of our weather, so be it.
Ya, its easy to stereotype (see my post above). Amusing really.... so aj?...
whenre' you taking delivery on that new sled? Go with the F1100 or 800 Turbo?

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Old
11-19-2012, 02:55 PM
  #837
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Originally Posted by Fidel Astro View Post

If someone is saying "the Jets rally only attracted 8,000 people," accurate attendance info isn't right at the fingertips, because it's decade-and-a-half old news. The insulting part, though, is that there are people here who were at that rally. I'm one of 'em. I was a teenager when the Jets left. I remember it quite well. So some guy from Arizona who probably couldn't even find Winnipeg on a map telling me that something I *attended* had drastically less people than it did is just... it's ridiculous.
Forget him. Ignore him. He called me a liar when I said that there were 9000 persons, at best, at the only Phoenix game I ever attended. I have pictures to prove it yet he knows better. He will soon be team less, so maybe he's angry and bitter. If anything, Winnipeg proved to be a great hockey market and I would wear your jersey proudly.

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Old
11-19-2012, 02:57 PM
  #838
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Originally Posted by aj8000 View Post
I am from Winnipeg. I have heard the comments, seen the posts regarding Winnipeg. I have also seen the posts regarding Arizona. I do not take it personally. People will always make fun of our weather, so be it.

Misinformation will be always be posted if it furthers the posters agenda or makes them feel good insulting the other city.
Just to clarify here, I don't care about the weather jokes. That's not what I'm talking about.

I take it personally when people imply Winnipeg isn't a 'deserving' hockey town and that we didn't love the original Jets. That's what irritates me. I know our weather is crazy. I'm not offended by those comments.

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11-19-2012, 03:33 PM
  #839
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Ya, its easy to stereotype (see my post above). Amusing really.... so aj?...
whenre' you taking delivery on that new sled? Go with the F1100 or 800 Turbo?
F1100 is last years model. Would not be caught dead riding one. F1200 is another story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fidel Astro View Post
Just to clarify here, I don't care about the weather jokes. That's not what I'm talking about.

I take it personally when people imply Winnipeg isn't a 'deserving' hockey town and that we didn't love the original Jets. That's what irritates me. I know our weather is crazy. I'm not offended by those comments.
I guess I kind of mixed my message up. At first I was referring to hockey in Winnipeg, then I decided to add the weather part. that being said, you cannot take these comments personally as well. No point, just gets your blood pressure up.

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11-19-2012, 04:54 PM
  #840
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The issue isn't ownership but the fact that he would be the "controlling owner" of the Coyotes (controlling meaning the president not ncessarily the majority owner). A minority ownership in both clubs would be allowed, but once you are in charge of a club you can't have a stake in another club.

Baisically you can have wonership stakes in upto 3 clubs as long as only one of the clubs is >10% stake and is less than 30%. If you are a director or president or whatever of a club, or have >30% stake you cannot have a stake in any other club.


Article XIII of the NHL constitution: [Mod: auto download, click with care, plus it's here in the BOH sticky section]
http://bizofhockey.com/docs/NHLConsitution.pdf
Ok so the Browns example. The new owner still has his ownership in the Steelers and he is winding that up. Minority interests in teams aren't always easy to move. My guess is he will sell it to the other owners eventually IF this deal goes through.

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11-19-2012, 10:10 PM
  #841
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Channel 5 (PHX) interview today with Joyce Clark on revised AMF.

http://www.kpho.com/video?autoStart=...clipId=7978963




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11-19-2012, 10:27 PM
  #842
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Channel 5 (PHX) interview today with Joyce Clark on revised AMF.

http://www.kpho.com/video?autoStart=...clipId=7978963



not sure if she is really that stupid or just putting her biased spin on the deal.

there is no chance in hell jamison buys the area...makes absolutely no sense for him to do so.

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11-19-2012, 10:27 PM
  #843
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Channel 5 (PHX) interview today with Joyce Clark on revised AMF.

http://www.kpho.com/video?autoStart=...clipId=7978963



Some observations.

1.Uneducated populace.
2. GJ can by the arena the day after he signs the lease and no AMF will need to be paid.
3. $11 million AMF. Really?
4. $30 000 penalty per un played hockey game. What a great deal for GJ and the JSG.

Clark never fails to disappoint.

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11-19-2012, 10:50 PM
  #844
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1.Uneducated populace.
What else could you call people who aren't rosy to giving up a lot of money in exchange for a little money?

Quote:
2. GJ can by the arena the day after he signs the lease and no AMF will need to be paid.
Makes sense. Give up Over $10M a year to manage the arena in order to buy it to gain construction cost debt and keep what you're already getting paid $10M+ to have.

I'm sure a crazy person would ask "if he's willing to buy the arena the day after the lease is signed, why would he bother setting up a lease at all and why would the COG bother amending it to get him to sign it?"

The answer is in second year Clarkonomics classes.

Quote:
3. $11 million AMF. Really?
Aren't you listening? Jamison can buy the arena, why are we even talking about the AMF?!

Quote:
4. $30 000 penalty per un played hockey game. What a great deal for GJ and the JSG.
At losing only ~$650,000 a year not playing any games and only paying the penalty will make it the most successful financial year for the Coyotes in recent memory. The team has turned it around!

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11-19-2012, 11:50 PM
  #845
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1.Uneducated populace.
Of course Joyce thinks Glendale has an uneducated populace. How could an educated populace possibly vote her out of office...

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11-20-2012, 12:24 AM
  #846
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As has been said and proven many times over, the Jets had the lowest ticket prices at the time and the lowest attendance. They didn't support their team at that time. Sure, they had lots of fans but they weren't going to the games. They had a last minute rally with 8000 fans but it was too late. Nobody (government or otherwise) wanted to pay to keep the team there. It wasn't just the NHL not wanting to bend over backwards, it was that there was nobody to negotiate with to keep them there. Winnipeg basically said NOPE.
Just so you are aware, there were more than 35,000 people at that rally (some estimates from media back in the day said ~40,000, even some as high as 50,000...we'll stick with the low end of "over 35,000")

I bet you that if that type of support was shown for the Yotes, many people would not be calling for them to relocate

Certainly, you have merit in saying the city of Winnipeg did play a role in driving the jets 1.0 away, such as ownership made it known at the time that a new arena was needed 10 years prior to the eventual relocation.

But the jets 1.0 is over hashed, and more importantly, nothing at all similar to the current Yotes situation, beyond the threat of relocation

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11-20-2012, 12:43 AM
  #847
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Is there some way to have a sticky topic (or something) posted with solid, sourced information about the Jets 1.0 so whenever this stuff comes up, anyone spreading misinformation can just be pointed to a source of actual facts?
I would have no problem with such a thread as long as the same kind of thread existed about the Coyotes as well. In addition, all infomation given is checked for accuracy and finalized by a 3rd party source who don't have a horse in either the Jets or Coyotes race.
All of this to see to it that the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth is in these threads.

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^ Yeah it was something like 25,000 people to the rally. Glendale's Save the Yotes rally was 150-200 if I'm not mistaken?
Another piece of truth here is that at the end of the day, the size of a rally or no rally at all makes no difference on the fate of a team when facing relocation, no matter the sport or how popular the sport is for that matter in the area that is facing the threat of a team relocating. Football is way bigger to this day in Los Angeles than hockey but yet the city lost both of its NFL teams and the rally to save both the Rams and the Raiders didn't make a difference. Also, just because one doesn't show up to a rally that doesn't mean that one doesn't care for the team or wants to see that team go for that matter.

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Channel 5 (PHX) interview today with Joyce Clark on revised AMF.

http://www.kpho.com/video?autoStart=...clipId=7978963



Nothing special as always and still no one in the Phoenix Media with a pair to ask the tough questions to the league or Jamison about this whole mess.


Last edited by Colt45Blast: 11-20-2012 at 01:03 AM.
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11-20-2012, 01:09 AM
  #848
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GJ remains a partial proud owner of the Sharks or l'ill gary and willy d's strawman
I keep seeing this 'strawman' idea being bandied about, and I wonder: to what end? Why? What would that accomplish?

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11-20-2012, 03:30 AM
  #849
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Of course Joyce thinks Glendale has an uneducated populace. How could an educated populace possibly vote her out of office...
She's using the term "uneducated" in a different context than what you're suggesting. But.... of course.... your comment was exactly what I suspected I'd see when I posted the link.

Seems there was a lot of "confusion" among Glendale voters regarding the tax-rollback initiative (Prop 457) despite CoG's efforts to explain the reasoning behind the tax increase via their website and other outlets. On top of the huge campaign info effort by the Glendale's police and fire departments explaining what passing 457 would do.

People can be "uneducated" by their own choice.


Last edited by TheLegend: 11-20-2012 at 03:46 AM.
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11-20-2012, 03:40 AM
  #850
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Nothing special as always and still no one in the Phoenix Media with a pair to ask the tough questions to the league or Jamison about this whole mess.
And how do you propose they condense four years worth of tough questions down to fit a 4 1/2 minute news interview spot?

The answer is you can't.

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