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Value of James Reimer

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Old
11-19-2012, 05:08 PM
  #76
ginner classic
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Funny, since you are seemingly in every single Leaf thread stating flimsy comments to bash them.

You got the trophy wrong is right. There was absolutely zero chance he would win the Hart or the Vezina.
You've just been blown out of the water....I suggest retreat....

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11-19-2012, 05:09 PM
  #77
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You've just been blown out of the water....I suggest retreat....
Facts don't slow him down. Just you watch.

 
Old
11-19-2012, 05:10 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
So apparently accomplishments don't make a difference anymore.

Not to mention you asked for one. You got three.
Accomplishments count. Just depends what accomplishments we are talking about and if they are being used with context. And actually, the fact that they won the Calder goes against the entire point. Because the statement was "average goalie prospects". Calder-winners aren't average. The fact that he was at and actually above their level says it all.

And I didn't get three. I got zero, since none of them apply.

And even if they did apply, and even if we are arguing instead that great goalie prospects who do amazing to start can flop, 3 people from the thousands of people who have played in the NHL over 100 years is not sample enough to make a blanket statement.

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11-19-2012, 05:11 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by BudMovin View Post
Facts don't slow him down. Just you watch.
There's a few of them around these parts that suffer the same affliction.



I feel bad for Reimer tbf...might turn out to be an ok keeper...last year he was horrific.

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11-19-2012, 05:12 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Accomplishments count. Just depends what accomplishments we are talking about and if they are being used with context. And actually, the fact that they won the Calder goes against the entire point. Because the statement was "average goalie prospects". Calder-winners aren't average. The fact that he was at and actually above their level says it all.

And I didn't get three. I got zero, since none of them apply.

And even if they did apply, and even if we are arguing instead that great goalie prospects who do amazing to start can flop, 3 people from the thousands of people who have played in the NHL over 100 years is not sample enough to make a blanket statement.
You're moving the goal posts now. The facts don't support you, so brush them aside as irrelevant.

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11-19-2012, 05:13 PM
  #81
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I don't even remember why Mason came up in this discussion, but here is the point:

A good showing on a small sample size, then a rough patch, is not going to give Reimer tons of value. He is worth more to the Leafs than any other team, so they should keep him.

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11-19-2012, 05:14 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Accomplishments count. Just depends what accomplishments we are talking about and if they are being used with context. And actually, the fact that they won the Calder goes against the entire point. Because the statement was "average goalie prospects". Calder-winners aren't average. The fact that he was at and actually above their level says it all.

And I didn't get three. I got zero, since none of them apply.

And even if they did apply, and even if we are arguing instead that great goalie prospects who do amazing to start can flop, 3 people from the thousands of people who have played in the NHL over 100 years is not sample enough to make a blanket statement.

Ooooo this is fun.....Raycroft drafted in the 5th round.....Carey in the 2nd.....Mason in the 3rd.....Holtby 4th......

Get back down on the mat where you belong

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11-19-2012, 05:16 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Top 6 Spaling View Post
I don't even remember why Mason came up in this discussion, but here is the point:

A good showing on a small sample size, then a rough patch, is not going to give Reimer tons of value. He is worth more to the Leafs than any other team, so they should keep him.
I'd certainly agree with that. Which one is Reimer? Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde? The truth is probably somewhere inbetween, but his value really isn't going to be defined by either. I believe it was Viper who said that scouts are going to be looking more at his fundamental skills, and trying to extrapolate what kind of goalie he can become from that. Two seasons in the NHL isn't going to erase what scouts think of him.

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11-19-2012, 05:18 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by ginner classic View Post
Raycroft looked pretty good when you guys gave up Rask for him and had won the calder in his first year. Carey won a Vezina in his first year. Mason won Calder and was in contention for Vezina. What did Reimer do again?

And that was not all the names in NHL history....just the names I could rattle off the top of my head in ten seconds (Neuvirth ....oops there's another one....Holtby....there's another....)
Raycroft had just had a terrible year when the Leafs acquired him. Carey was in his 2nd year when he won the Vezina, and that year wasn't even great, he just got a lot of wins. Mason had no chance at any trophy past the Calder. All 3 benefited from the teams they were on, and those "accomplishments" were as much a team trophy. Reimer had no such help. The Leafs team was doing bad before Reimer and had a system that exposed goalies, not sheltered them.

Neuvirth has never had a season like Reimer's, and Holtby may very well be a star. Don't see how those apply either. Still at zero.

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11-19-2012, 05:19 PM
  #85
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I said he got consideration. He was 4th in Hart voting, and 2nd in Vezina voting. For a rookie goaltender that's pretty spectacular.
Yes, and being a rookie goaltender is exactly why he got those charity "good story" votes. He was nowhere close to winning, and has been downright horrible since then.

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11-19-2012, 05:20 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Best you'd see is something like Mason (Columbus) going to the Leafs for Reimer+3rd. One has proven quality but fell short, the other hasn't proven anything but may be of interest to a team with low expectations.
Columbus would have to add. And by add, I mean add Jack Johnson+1st, just to make up for the fact that Toronto would be taking Steve Mason off their hands.

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Chicago might be another to buy low. I don't see San Jose having any interest. Talked to enough of their fans to gauge the majority are happy to ride Niemi until their prospects develop.

Put it this way though, a second would be considered a good return.
Chicago might be a good fit, but there's no reason to think Reimer is any better than Crawford. So Reimer would either be a secondary piece in a trade or he would have to be given up for a significantly cheap price.

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11-19-2012, 05:20 PM
  #87
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Facts don't slow him down. Just you watch.
Faulty facts don't slow me down, no.

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11-19-2012, 05:21 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Yes, and being a rookie goaltender is exactly why he got those charity "good story" votes. He was nowhere close to winning, and has been downright horrible since then.
Now you're just reaching desperately for any excuse you can find.

Basically, what you seem to be saying is that, Reimer is unique... and nothing we show you can prove otherwise. Reimer is better than the others, not because he has accomplished more, but because you say so. At this point, you might as well be stuffing your fingers in your ears.

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11-19-2012, 05:22 PM
  #89
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You're moving the goal posts now. The facts don't support you, so brush them aside as irrelevant.
How the hell am *I* moving the goalposts? I made the goalposts, and then people kicked it into the stands, and said "no man, that's a good goal".

The original statement is the original statement, which was not addressed. And what was addressed is wrong AND statistically irrelevant.

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11-19-2012, 05:23 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Top 6 Spaling View Post
I don't even remember why Mason came up in this discussion, but here is the point:

A good showing on a small sample size, then a rough patch, is not going to give Reimer tons of value. He is worth more to the Leafs than any other team, so they should keep him.
Mason came up because people suggested that Mason is currently worth more than Reimer because he had one good season that was worse than Reimer's, and the 3 "I want to kill myself" ones don't matter.

I agree, he is worth more to the Leafs than anyone else, and I think we should and will keep him. But some of the claims in this thread are downright outrageous.

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11-19-2012, 05:25 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
We've seen comparable goalies net impressive returns (Lindback/Bob)



Again, we've seen young goalies (with lesser resumes than Reimer) net fairly significant returns.
Show me a goalie with his resume returning a player similar to Clowe and a first round pick

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11-19-2012, 05:25 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by ginner classic View Post
Ooooo this is fun.....Raycroft drafted in the 5th round.....Carey in the 2nd.....Mason in the 3rd.....Holtby 4th......

Get back down on the mat where you belong
How does that matter in the slightest? When has draft ranking ever mattered for a goalie?

Henrik Lundqvist was drafted in the 7th round. I guess that means he is the worst goalie of them all.

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11-19-2012, 05:26 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Mason came up because people suggested that Mason is currently worth more than Reimer because he had one good season that was worse than Reimer's, and the 3 "I want to kill myself" ones don't matter.

I agree, he is worth more to the Leafs than anyone else, and I think we should and will keep him. But some of the claims in this thread are downright outrageous.
Wow.

Yes, some of the claims in this thread are outrageous. Just not the ones you think.

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11-19-2012, 05:26 PM
  #94
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I'd certainly agree with that. Which one is Reimer? Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde? The truth is probably somewhere inbetween, but his value really isn't going to be defined by either. I believe it was Viper who said that scouts are going to be looking more at his fundamental skills, and trying to extrapolate what kind of goalie he can become from that. Two seasons in the NHL isn't going to erase what scouts think of him.
I would think that Reimer is more the one he was when he wasn't injured, but common sense aside, even if it was somewhere in the middle, that would make him a starting goaltender.

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11-19-2012, 05:28 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Columbus would have to add. And by add, I mean add Jack Johnson+1st, just to make up for the fact that Toronto would be taking Steve Mason off their hands.

Chicago might be a good fit, but there's no reason to think Reimer is any better than Crawford. So Reimer would either be a secondary piece in a trade or he would have to be given up for a significantly cheap price.
I think Reimer/Crawford are pretty comparable. Both are lower end starters, but it would give Chicago a bit of competition in net, and gives them the ability to ride the hot goaltender.

Goaltendings been a weakness for Chicago, and really for a small price they could make a bit of difference.

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11-19-2012, 05:29 PM
  #96
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Mason's Calder-year was beyond what Reimer has ever shown. He had Vezina consideration that year. Bobby Ryan probably could have put up 40 goals that season, and still lost the Calder to him.
I think Mason's rookie year is vastly overrated because he hit 10 SOs.

Considering he only managed a .916 SV% with approximately 1/6 of his game being goose eggs should tell you that he was fairly pedestrian in the other 50 games he played.

Also: Ken Hitchcock. If you need more evidence on his effect refer to Brian Elliott.

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11-19-2012, 05:29 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Mason came up because people suggested that Mason is currently worth more than Reimer because he had one good season that was worse than Reimer's, and the 3 "I want to kill myself" ones don't matter.
You might want to give us a source that shows Reimer receiving more Vezina votes than Mason did.

You are moving the goalposts, whether you admit it or not. If you want to, you can discount every comparable young goaltender with comparable stats in their first year in the league, for some reason. It doesn't matter. He was good over that stretch, but it's not that uncommon, and not that meaningful.

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11-19-2012, 05:30 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Now you're just reaching desperately for any excuse you can find.

Basically, what you seem to be saying is that, Reimer is unique... and nothing we show you can prove otherwise. Reimer is better than the others, not because he has accomplished more, but because you say so. At this point, you might as well be stuffing your fingers in your ears.
Except Reimer had a better first season than any of the names given.

Reimer is fairly unique. That doesn't necessarily mean he is going to be some superstar, but to write him off because a statistically irrelevant number of individuals with worse numbers over NHL history flopped in a loosely similar situation is just flat-out stupid.

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11-19-2012, 05:30 PM
  #99
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This thread is getting single-handedly derailed. Awesome.

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11-19-2012, 05:35 PM
  #100
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I think Mason's rookie year is vastly overrated because he hit 10 SOs.

Considering he only managed a .916 SV% with approximately 1/6 of his game being goose eggs should tell you that he was fairly pedestrian in the other 50 games he played.

Also: Ken Hitchcock. If you need more evidence on his effect refer to Brian Elliott.
During the 2008-2009 season, .916% were exceptional numbers. He would have been tied for like 6th or 7th in save% amongst goalies with 50 or more games. Of course, that makes Thomas' .933 save% stand out just that much more, but it's certainly comparable with the .920's we saw last season.

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