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Round 2, Vote 4 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

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Old
11-19-2012, 03:43 PM
  #126
BM67
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Just looking at goalies. Lopresti, Henry, Rayner, Broda, Brimsek, Mowers. That's 6 NHL starters, 3 of them HHoFers, missing due to WWII from 1943-44 and 1944-45. If you think that has negligible impact on the NHL, then I don't know what to say.

Of the 17 goalies that played in the NHL during 1943-44 and 1944-45, 13 of them never played in the NHL after 1944-45. Several of them were former NHL starters that had lost their NHL job back in the 30s.

Of the 4 that did play after 44-45, 2 were future HHoFers, Durnan and Lumley. Lumley was only playing, as a 17-18 year old, because of the lack of goalies due to WWII. Of the others, McCool was gone after 1945-46, and Marois got into 2 games as an emergency loaner for Chicago in 1953-54.

No other position was as depleted as goaltender, but there were all-stars and HHoFers missing at all positions, as well as many that had their NHL career delayed until after the war.

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11-19-2012, 04:49 PM
  #127
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First Year Original Six Goaltending (1942-43)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
Just looking at goalies. Lopresti, Henry, Rayner, Broda, Brimsek, Mowers. That's 6 NHL starters, 3 of them HHoFers, missing due to WWII from 1943-44 and 1944-45. If you think that has negligible impact on the NHL, then I don't know what to say.

Of the 17 goalies that played in the NHL during 1943-44 and 1944-45, 13 of them never played in the NHL after 1944-45. Several of them were former NHL starters that had lost their NHL job back in the 30s.

Of the 4 that did play after 44-45, 2 were future HHoFers, Durnan and Lumley. Lumley was only playing, as a 17-18 year old, because of the lack of goalies due to WWII. Of the others, McCool was gone after 1945-46, and Marois got into 2 games as an emergency loaner for Chicago in 1953-54.

No other position was as depleted as goaltender, but there were all-stars and HHoFers missing at all positions, as well as many that had their NHL career delayed until after the war.
Add Mike Karakas and Paul Bibeault to the list of available 1943-44, 1944-45 goalies. Both were one season regulars or lead goalies post 1944-45.

Key point is the following and it is very relevant to considering goaltenders in this project.

The 1930-31 NHL season was the last 10 team NHL season before the start of a series of contractions the resulted in the O6 era starting with the 1942-43 season.

During the 1930-31 season the NHL featured 5 HHOF quality goalies as starters or lead goalies - Connell, Gardiner, Hainsworth, Thompson, Worters plus three who at various points had some HHOF support or consideration - Chabot, Kerr, Roach(all were SC winning goalies at least once) plus two who were simply goalies - Cude and Dolson.

Yet your own list of the transition period from a seven to six team NHL lists only 3 HHOF quality goalies - Brimsek, Broda, Rayner. The rest are not even close.

So the key question is why did NHL goaltending deteriorate so quickly and badly within roughly 12 years. The cupboard was effectively bare. No WWII and the Bibeault, Henry, Lopresti, Mowers, etc do not develop HHOF skills. There still is a need and room for Bill Durnan and Harry Lumley. None of the other available goalies either in the service or playing in Canada or the USA were as good.

So to dismiss Bill Durnan as simply a product of WWII is a biased disservice to hockey history.

Questioning his longevity, results, awards and honours is one thing but Bill Durnan was a legit HHOF quality NHL goalie with a deep Senior League pedigree.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 11-19-2012 at 05:10 PM. Reason: typo
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Old
11-19-2012, 04:51 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
So to dismiss Bill Durnan as simply a product of WWII is a biased disservice to hockey history.
I agree.

And oh, by the way, who did that?

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11-19-2012, 04:57 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
(...) He was close when he had a great year, but he was so inconsistent that it means that 25% of the time he was up there. And that's what skews the Vezina share metric, or the omission metric. When Belfour was on, yes, he'll put up results that make him look great. But your metrics do nothing to hold him accountable to the times he lost his job to Jeff Hackett, Mike Vernon and Marty Turco. With a player like Belfour, you cannot simply judge him on when he was strong. You have to judge him on when he was weak as well. And when he was weak, comparing him to Brodeur was beyond laughable. And it's not like his weakness came at the end of his career and he kept getting more chances after he stopped earning them. It's more like he'd get comfortable then just stop trying.
You brought a valid point Nalyd.

I'm just not sure there's anything bad in losing a starter job to players like a prime Hackett (who wasn't exactly Mr. Consistency either and who's the prototypical goalie-who-can-get-hot-for-a-given-period-of-time), Hrudey or Turco, especially considering how wildly fluctuating goalies performances are since, let's say, the early nineties, which is partly explainable by a bigger number of teams and by the fact that everybody can be on fire here and there.


Last edited by MXD: 11-19-2012 at 05:22 PM. Reason: Me and Nalyd confused Vernon with Hrudey, my bad
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11-19-2012, 05:00 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
...Bibeault, Henry, Lopreasti, Mowers, etc do not develop HHOF skills...
.... who the Hell's this guy? Never heard of him. There was a Pete Lopresti. Born in 1954. Played for Minny. Few games for Edmonton. But Lopreasti?... did you just make that up to trick people & make sure they were payin attention?

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11-19-2012, 05:01 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Wikipedia speaks of the efforts of the Canadiens to keep their players during World War 2:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...real_Canadiens
I don't have an exact list of who's who, but on top of my head, Reardon was possibly the 4th best skater who left for war. And the best D-Men.

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11-19-2012, 05:02 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Wikipedia speaks of the efforts of the Canadiens to keep their players during World War 2:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...real_Canadiens
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
.... who the Hell's this guy? Never heard of him. There was a Pete Lopresti. Born in 1954. Played for Minny. Few games for Edmonton. But "Lopreasti"? You just made that up to trick people. Make sure they were payin attention huh?
PRobably Sam.

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11-19-2012, 05:04 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
.... who the Hell's this guy? Never heard of him. There was a Pete Lopresti. Born in 1954. Played for Minny. Few games for Edmonton. But Lopreasti?... did you just make that up to trick people & make sure they were payin attention?
Pete's dad, Sam, holds the NHL record for saves in a single game (with 80):

http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/loprestis.html

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11-19-2012, 05:07 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
The after is easily explained as he had a major injury.
Agreed, and the before could perhaps be partly explained by the influence of Jacques Plante. Parent gives Plante a lot of credit for helping develop his game while he was in Toronto, and the Flyers later hired Plante specifically to work with Parent when he was struggling during the 1977-78 season.

It should also be noted again that Parent had three years of .925, .925 and .921 from '67-68 to '69-70 on an expansion team, which perhaps doesn't make .933 and .918 on one of the league's best teams in the mid-'70s look like that huge of an outlier after all.

A potentially big caveat though is that the Flyers saw a massive drop in shots against from 1972-73 to 1973-74, going from 34.3 SA/60 to 28.4 SA/60. They had the same coach and mostly the same roster, so I don't know why there would have been such a big difference over just one season, but it worked to Bernie Parent's advantage. I also don't know how they did it given that the '73-74 Flyers faced a lot more opposing power plays (422 compared to 360 in '72-73), which should have made things tougher for Parent.

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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Does anyone feel like Parent is getting the shaft here? I was really feeling good about him a couple of rounds ago but as Mike Farkas said, every time I dig deeper I get a little more uneasy with him.
I had Parent much too high on my original list, and now I'm a bit with the rest of the crowd here in that I'm not entirely sure where to put him (other than likely somewhere behind Esposito and Belfour who I have at 1A/1B this round).

I don't think I entirely agree that the rest of his career is not top 60 worthy though. Even if you take out Parent's 1973-74 and 1974-75 seasons, he still had a .915 career save percentage compared to league average of .901. Granted that was during an expansion era, but Parent played mostly for an expansion team in Philadelphia.

Taking all the goalies from 1967-68 to 1978-79, and multiplying the difference between their save percentages and league average by the number of shots against to get the number of goals saved above average (essentially league-adjusted save percentage weighted by playing time), Parent still ranks third behind Esposito and Dryden in that period at 160 goals better than average even without 1973-74 and 1974-75 included, although obviously much closer to the pack than the two at the top:

1. Tony Esposito: +383 (.914 save % vs. .894 avg)
2. Ken Dryden: +323 (.921 save % vs. .892 avg)
3. Bernie Parent: +160 (.915 save % vs. .901 avg)
4. Glenn Resch: +157 (.916 save % vs. .888 avg)
5. Jacques Plante: +129 (.927 save % vs. .904 avg)

(With 1973-74 and 1974-75 in there Parent would have been at +280).

Parent was also fairly well regarded in the early '70s it seems. When he bolted to the WHA (for a boatload of cash, reportedly $750K over 5 years), he was described by AP as "one of the best young goaltenders in the NHL". And his overall longevity is pretty good as well, breaking into the original six league at 20 and retiring as the fourth oldest goalie in the league in his last season (and likely would have played longer if not for his eye injury). When he retired he was ranked 10th on the all-time games played list.

Overall, I think Parent was almost certainly not quite as good during his peak as his reputation suggests, which is mainly why I don't have him as high as I once did, but there is still good reason to believe that he was a talented goalie during the rest of his career.

One thing on the negative side though for anyone who really doesn't like goalies quitting during playoff series, apparently Bernie Parent did that in the WHA, refusing to play until he got paid in the 1974 WHA playoffs.

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11-19-2012, 05:11 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Pete's dad, Sam, holds the NHL record for saves in a single game (with 80):
... ah, OK, thanks Taco. A typo. And interesting. Unaware, indeed, quite ignorant to the fact that Pete had a father who had also played professionally, and in the NHL. Sam I am I am huh?.

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11-19-2012, 05:13 PM
  #136
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Sam Lopresti

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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
.... who the Hell's this guy? Never heard of him. There was a Pete Lopresti. Born in 1954. Played for Minny. Few games for Edmonton. But Lopreasti?... did you just make that up to trick people & make sure they were payin attention?
Pete's father. Early 1940s NHLer. Had a Ron Tugnutt type game against the Bruins. Apologies about the typo.

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11-19-2012, 05:16 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
Just looking at goalies. Lopresti, Henry, Rayner, Broda, Brimsek, Mowers. That's 6 NHL starters, 3 of them HHoFers, missing due to WWII from 1943-44 and 1944-45. If you think that has negligible impact on the NHL, then I don't know what to say.

Of the 17 goalies that played in the NHL during 1943-44 and 1944-45, 13 of them never played in the NHL after 1944-45. Several of them were former NHL starters that had lost their NHL job back in the 30s.

Of the 4 that did play after 44-45, 2 were future HHoFers, Durnan and Lumley. Lumley was only playing, as a 17-18 year old, because of the lack of goalies due to WWII. Of the others, McCool was gone after 1945-46, and Marois got into 2 games as an emergency loaner for Chicago in 1953-54.

No other position was as depleted as goaltender, but there were all-stars and HHoFers missing at all positions, as well as many that had their NHL career delayed until after the war.
I like Rayner as much as anybody else, but qualify him as a starter at that point is a bit far-fetched. Same thing for Henry -- led the league in Wins, but I'm not even sure he was in the upper-quarter of the league goalies...

I mean, Durnan certainly didn't "steal" a job from Henry (that he wouldn't have stolen anyways).

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11-19-2012, 05:19 PM
  #138
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I'm confused... when were Belfour and Vernon on the same team?

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11-19-2012, 05:23 PM
  #139
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I'm confused... when were Belfour and Vernon on the same team?
Nalyd probably confused Vernon with Hrudey... And I did the same.

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11-19-2012, 05:26 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
... ah, OK, thanks Taco. A typo. And interesting. Unaware, indeed, quite ignorant to the fact that Pete had a father who had also played professionally, and in the NHL. Sam I am I am huh?.
Sam didn't play too long, so it's understandable - it'd be like someone seventy years from now not knowing who Erik Ersberg was.

Regarding the elder LoPresti - I'm more impressed that during World War Two, he spent more than 40 days in a lifeboat.

(Man, I hope that the Erik Ersberg Fan Club doesn't mobilize because of this...in case it comes up later, I'm a fan.)

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11-19-2012, 06:55 PM
  #141
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Regarding the elder LoPresti - I'm more impressed that during World War Two, he spent more than 40 days in a lifeboat.
Dove into the water, chased down and cut up a dolphin to survive. True story!

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11-19-2012, 07:02 PM
  #142
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Dove into the water, chased down and cut up a dolphin to survive. True story!
If that's true, I'm calling a mistrial on the whole project here. Kangaroo court! And we re-vote, have the dolphin slicer as #1 all-time and move on to forwards...no one will be the least bit interested in 2 though 40 after that...

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11-19-2012, 07:14 PM
  #143
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My feeling is that such a player must have been a product of his environment rather than a difference-maker.

I mean, if Parent were a difference-maker then he would have done it either before or after those 2 seasons, right? It kind of strains credulity that he abruptly started and stopped being an all-time legendary performer. We sometimes see goalies do that after one or two great early seasons, when they get solved, but seeing it mid-career is harder to explain.

Does anyone feel like Parent is getting the shaft here? I was really feeling good about him a couple of rounds ago but as Mike Farkas said, every time I dig deeper I get a little more uneasy with him.
Could have just been a great situation for Parent (and perhaps his confidence).

You can believe he was exceptional in goal those 2 years in Philly. But he was still very good after that as well. In 77-78 he led the league in shutouts with 7 in only 49 games. A 2.22 GAA and a 29-6-13 record. That's a hell of a season in the late 70s.

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11-19-2012, 07:46 PM
  #144
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Just so I have a clue about my colleagues...

Do anybody DOESN'T have Tiny Thompson last?

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11-19-2012, 08:10 PM
  #145
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Just so I have a clue about my colleagues...

Do anybody DOESN'T have Tiny Thompson last?
Yes.

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11-19-2012, 08:24 PM
  #146
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Just so I have a clue about my colleagues...

Do anybody DOESN'T have Tiny Thompson last?
I'm not settled on an order yet, but I'm not at all sure I'd put Smith over Thompson. Waiting to hear the argument on Holocek, who I know the least about.

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11-19-2012, 09:34 PM
  #147
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Just so I have a clue about my colleagues...

Do anybody DOESN'T have Tiny Thompson last?
I had Tiny Thompson above Billy Smith on my original list. Don't think I've seen anything to change that quite yet.

(Then again though, I also stupidly had Thompson ahead of Esposito for some reason that I have no idea why.)

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11-19-2012, 10:04 PM
  #148
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What's the case for Tiny Thompson (a top-notch, or so it seems, Depression-era goalie) being behind Billy Smith (a tandem goalie that excelled in the playoffs)?

With little research done on Thompson so far, I'm initially impressed that a goalie that grew up in the pre-forward pass era and started in the NHL in the pre-forward pass era would adapt so well to the new league so quickly.

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11-19-2012, 10:18 PM
  #149
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Just so I have a clue about my colleagues...

Do anybody DOESN'T have Tiny Thompson last?
I don't. I wouldn't put Smith ahead of him.

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11-19-2012, 10:37 PM
  #150
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Dove into the water, chased down and cut up a dolphin to survive. True story!
Jesus. He killed Flipper?

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