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Value of James Reimer

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Old
11-19-2012, 05:36 PM
  #101
LEAFANFORLIFE23
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Best you'd see is something like Mason (Columbus) going to the Leafs for Reimer+3rd. One has proven quality but fell short, the other hasn't proven anything but may be of interest to a team with low expectations.

Chicago might be another to buy low. I don't see San Jose having any interest. Talked to enough of their fans to gauge the majority are happy to ride Niemi until their prospects develop.

Put it this way though, a second would be considered a good return.
wait we are ADDING the pick for mason ? you watch him play the last couple years? try mason + 2nd for reimer I don't think mason is awful i think a change could be good but make no mistake about it jackets are the team adding

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11-19-2012, 05:36 PM
  #102
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Except Reimer had a better first season than any of the names given.

Reimer is fairly unique. That doesn't necessarily mean he is going to be some superstar, but to write him off because a statistically irrelevant number of individuals with worse numbers over NHL history flopped in a loosely similar situation is just flat-out stupid.
By your definition... not by the NHL's, who defines rookie seasons differently.

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11-19-2012, 05:36 PM
  #103
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You might want to give us a source that shows Reimer receiving more Vezina votes than Mason did.

You are moving the goalposts, whether you admit it or not. If you want to, you can discount every comparable young goaltender with comparable stats in their first year in the league, for some reason. It doesn't matter. He was good over that stretch, but it's not that uncommon, and not that meaningful.
I don't care who got more Vezina votes. That is one random guy's opinion. The stats say that Reimer was better under a harder system.

Using Vezina votes is beyond stupid, because only one of the individuals was even able to receive them, and there are tons of reasons people get trophy votes when they are clearly not even close. Reimer joined too late in the season to be able to play enough games to be considered.

Being that good to start the first season of your career is statistically uncommon. Very uncommon actually. So uncommon that we actually can't tell what it means. And I have yet to see any evidence to the contrary.

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11-19-2012, 05:38 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
I don't care who got more Vezina votes. That is one random guy's opinion. The stats say that Reimer was better under a harder system.

Using Vezina votes is beyond stupid, because only one of the individuals was even able to receive them. Reimer joined too late in the season to be able to play enough games to be considered.

Being that good to start the first season of your career is statistically uncommon. Very uncommon actually. And I have yet to see any evidence to the contrary.
It's actually quite a few "random guy's" opinions, yet somehow the opinions of those people are less meaningful than yours?

And you have seen evidence to the contrary. You're just ignoring it.

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11-19-2012, 05:39 PM
  #105
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Guys reimer will be a #1 franchise goalie soon enough, just wait. I'd only move him for a massive overpayment, a young stud like Benn, Carlson, Skinner etc. He will be that good. Lookout 2014 olympics, he might be a backup only, but never know if the starting goalie chokes

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11-19-2012, 05:40 PM
  #106
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* Mods sorry if you dont think this deserves a thread.

So with lots of discussion about Luongo potentially landing in Toronto,

What kind of return would Reimer net if Burke were to acquire Luongo?

- Teams may be looking for a 1A/1B type goalie (Chicago/San Jose), or a young goalie who could take over for an aging goalie a year or 2 down the road (New Jersey).

- We've seen young goalies like Lindback/Bobrosky net solid returns, Reimer is probably in a similar ballpark valuewise.

Discuss.
if there is a deal between Leafs and vancouver I can see james being in it. From anyone else i want a return similar to lindback or bob's return

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11-19-2012, 05:41 PM
  #107
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During the 2008-2009 season, .916% were exceptional numbers. He would have been tied for like 6th or 7th in save% amongst goalies with 50 or more games. Of course, that makes Thomas' .933 save% stand out just that much more, but it's certainly comparable with the .920's we saw last season.
During that season, Mason's numbers placed him between 11th and 16th in the league. Reimer's season put him between 11th and 12th in the league. Two players above Reimer in his year had below 30 games, while everybody was above that mark in Mason's year.

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11-19-2012, 05:43 PM
  #108
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Guys reimer will be a #1 franchise goalie soon enough, just wait. I'd only move him for a massive overpayment, a young stud like Benn, Carlson, Skinner etc. He will be that good. Lookout 2014 olympics, he might be a backup only, but never know if the starting goalie chokes
Well then...

I could see him developing into a good starter. I could also see him flopping and being a decent backup. Having a hard time seeing him being a "#1 Franchise Goalie"

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11-19-2012, 05:43 PM
  #109
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By your definition... not by the NHL's, who defines rookie seasons differently.
I don't care how the NHL defines rookie season. We are talking about starts to careers, which doesn't start 20+ games into your career under a better system.

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11-19-2012, 05:44 PM
  #110
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I would expect a significant haul. Reimer has shown to be a competent #1 goaltender. The only issue is that he was injured and was not able to become consistent because of those injuries.

He should pull in a #1 and a good(not elite) prospect or 2nd line/pairing player.I would expect something like SJ 1st + Clowe. Something of that nature. or 1st+Clarkson from NJ.

That being said, I would much prefer to roll Luongo and reimer as a pairing and move reimer at the deadline when he has proven to overcome his injury and consistency issues.
there is a reason why there is so much talk about the leafs looking for a new number 1 goalie. There is a glutt of goalies just like reimer running around the league--he has shown nothing that has made him special, If you look aruond the league most teams have a goalie like reimer somewhere in the system or have just moved him somewhere else.

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11-19-2012, 05:44 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
I don't care who got more Vezina votes. That is one random guy's opinion.
Not really.

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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
The stats say that Reimer was better under a harder system.
No, they don't. Goaltending statistics aren't actually designed in a way that's able to do that.

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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Being that good to start the first season of your career is statistically uncommon. Very uncommon actually. So uncommon that we actually can't tell what it means. And I have yet to see any evidence to the contrary.
It's not that uncommon. And most people don't write off Reimer, and most do not say that patterns we have seen within others make it a safe assumption that he'll head one way or another. It's up to Reimer, still, and he can still be a good goalie, even a very good one. But you're trying way too hard to talk his value up beyond what's reasonable, at this point. What is reasonable is for the Leafs to not trade him for his current value, and have him improve and surround him with a more comfortable environment on the ice. They'll do that, and that's certainly going to help him and his potential. But it doesn't change a lot about his value now, and the impact on it of a 37 game sample size from his rookie year.

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11-19-2012, 05:45 PM
  #112
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It's actually quite a few "random guy's" opinions, yet somehow the opinions of those people are less meaningful than yours?

And you have seen evidence to the contrary. You're just ignoring it.
No, those opinions aren't less meaningful than mine. Opinions are less meaningful than facts.

And no, no evidence has been presented to the contrary. At all.

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11-19-2012, 05:45 PM
  #113
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During that season, Mason's numbers placed him between 11th and 16th in the league. Reimer's season put him between 11th and 12th in the league. Two players above Reimer in his year had below 30 games, while everybody was above that mark in Mason's year.
And yet he was 2nd in Vezina voting, 4th in Hart voting, and he won the Calder. That should tell you that numbers alone don't always put one goalie above another. No objective person would put Reimer's season above Mason's.

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11-19-2012, 05:45 PM
  #114
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I don't care how the NHL defines rookie season. We are talking about starts to careers, which doesn't start 20+ games into your career under a better system.
You don't see this as detrimental to your argument?

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11-19-2012, 05:46 PM
  #115
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No, those opinions aren't less meaningful than mine. Opinions are less meaningful than facts.

And no, no evidence has been presented to the contrary. At all.
I think you just proved my point.

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11-19-2012, 05:48 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
I did watch Mason. He didn't show significantly higher potential. He showed that he can take advantage of a system and then drop off the face of the earth when he doesn't have that to hide behind anymore.

And he has had multiple years since then where he has been worse than bad, which is an important factor. Reimer had the better start, and then has had 1 mediocre year with an injury, as opposed to three "I want to kill myself he is so bad" years.


Excuse me, what was the last time an "average prospect goalie" broke into the league halfway through the season at 22, and played 37 games to finish the year with a 0.921 save percentage?
Evidently, you missed a few games because he ran away with the Calder and had a ten game stretch that only recently was topped by Schneider, at least as far as prospect success is concerned. What he showed was a flash in the pan brilliance that is not uncommon of young players. Grabner is another such example, and for a while you could argue Versteeg.

Reimer played for a better team, whereas Mason had the weight of the world tossed on his shoulders after Columbus had unrealistic expectations. You also neglect to note Toronto has a superior defense. Lastly, his numbers are only better because he started in fewer games than Mason.

Ironically enough, Andrew Raycroft. How well did that turn out?

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11-19-2012, 05:49 PM
  #117
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I don't care how the NHL defines rookie season. We are talking about starts to careers, which doesn't start 20+ games into your career under a better system.
So what's the limit? One game? Two? Why even start there, why not start in the AHL? You could certainly argue an NHL career, for many players, starts in the AHL where they play their first professional hockey. The NHL has a strictly defined system for a reason, and if a player is eligible for the Calder, he's a rookie. Period.

All you're doing is handwaving everything that disputes your point. It's irrelevant because it doesn't fit into your definition, even though your definition isn't the official one, and basically is only your definition because you think it supports your argument.

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11-19-2012, 05:50 PM
  #118
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Well then...

I could see him developing into a good starter. I could also see him flopping and being a decent backup. Having a hard time seeing him being a "#1 Franchise Goalie"
the only thing this thread shows, is that Reimer is CRIMINALLY underrated on HF. Good thing GM's have longer memory spans

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11-19-2012, 05:50 PM
  #119
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No, they don't. Goaltending statistics aren't actually designed in a way that's able to do that.
Wins and GAA certainly aren't designed to show individual skill, which is what everybody is drooling over in regards to Mason, but save% is a relatively accurate tool. It is of course impacted by the team you are on and the defensive system, but the one Reimer was on was so much worse in terms of defensive system anyway. And he put up better numbers.

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It's not that uncommon. And most people don't write off Reimer, and most say that patterns we have seen within others make it a safe assumption that he'll head one way or another. It's up to Reimer, still, and he can still be a good goalie, even a very good one. But you're trying way too hard to talk his value up beyond what's reasonable, at this point. What is reasonable is for the Leafs to not trade him for his current value, and have him improve and surround him with a more comfortable environment on the ice. They'll do that, and that's certainly going to help him and his potential. But it doesn't change a lot about his value now, and the impact on it of a 37 game sample size from his rookie year.
It IS that uncommon. And nobody can prove otherwise. All I have seen are the same 3 names throughout NHL history that are always brought up, and they don't even apply!

There is absolutely zero pattern one way or the other.

I am not trying to talk up Reimer's value. I don't even want him traded. I am merely correcting faulty logic in this thread, and countering the statement that he is worth less than maybe the worst goalie in the league over the last 3 years.

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11-19-2012, 05:51 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
wait we are ADDING the pick for mason ? you watch him play the last couple years? try mason + 2nd for reimer I don't think mason is awful i think a change could be good but make no mistake about it jackets are the team adding
Actually, no. Mason has a higher ceiling if he ever can rebound. Reimer is just an average goaltender. I'm not saying Toronto would do the aforementioned trade but that is what I suspect Columbus might want and what Reimer is worth. Again, he has little to no value right now.

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11-19-2012, 05:54 PM
  #121
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And yet he was 2nd in Vezina voting, 4th in Hart voting, and he won the Calder. That should tell you that numbers alone don't always put one goalie above another. No objective person would put Reimer's season above Mason's.
You are putting way too much stock into being a loser of an opinion-based trophy.

I don't think any objective person would put Mason's first season above Reimer's, and to suggest that Mason is worth more now with 3 terrible years after that is lunacy.

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11-19-2012, 05:54 PM
  #122
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the only thing this thread shows, is that Reimer is CRIMINALLY underrated on HF. Good thing GM's have longer memory spans
He played half a season, did an admiral job and subsequently fell off the map. Yes, injured but why would any team buy on Reimer when the majority have prospects easily comparable? The question was, what is Reimer's value. Very little.

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11-19-2012, 05:55 PM
  #123
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You don't see this as detrimental to your argument?
An arbitrary classification has no significance.

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11-19-2012, 05:55 PM
  #124
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guys he played in the world cup, why does that mean nothing? He's gonna be special

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11-19-2012, 05:57 PM
  #125
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guys he played in the world cup, why does that mean nothing? He's gonna be special
You mean the World Championships?

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