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The Star: Maple Leafs might be better off without a season

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Old
11-18-2012, 02:40 PM
  #101
Hurt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
We would know if they made offers to top UFA's.
Except we wouldn't since Toronto's current management group is awfully tight-lipped with trades and signings unknown until they happen.

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Old
11-18-2012, 02:59 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by BlueBaron View Post
Since Kessel is currently better than Hall or Seguin and may very well always be you are basically complaining we don't have Hamilton, which is really not the end of the world. Sure he would be nice but he has not proven anything yet at the NHL so moaning when he may or may not be an NHLer seems kind of sad.

Sure for positional reasons Seguin might be more appealing but this is just 20/20 hind sight . You guys really need to get over the Kessel trade, Kessel has been just fine . If Hamilton does not prove to be a top pairing D all of this complaining is going to seem very petty, actually it pretty much does already, Oh no we missed out on a defensemen who we have no idea how good he will be !

We may not have even drafted Hamilton so it's a silly argument. Add to that you have no idea how Seguin would have developed in our market without the cover of Bostons depth and the increased pressure and scrutiny that would have come with being a saviour. One thing we do know for sure is Kessel can handle it.
Might as well trade Reilly since there's a chance he will turn out to be nothing. Might as well trade our draft picks as well since we have no idea how they will develop in our market. One thing we do know for sure is that Kessel can handle it, and it has meant jack squat to the Leafs fortunes.

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11-18-2012, 03:11 PM
  #103
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The only good thing to come out of this lockout so far is I have discovered two new leagues to follow in the MLB and to some extent KHL. I hate baseball and I am pumped to see the new Jays.

Now to get on topic. Really all I can say about this whole Draft Lotto VS playing is in both cases we have a 100% chance of that pick being somewhere between 1 and 30. I do not know the odds of us using it though.


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Originally Posted by Hurt View Post
Except we wouldn't since Toronto's current management group is awfully tight-lipped with trades and signings unknown until they happen.
To an extent I mean Schenn - JVR was seen from day one.

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11-18-2012, 03:20 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by hero View Post
Meh, few players want to play in Toronto it seems, and to be honest, what player wants to go to a bottom 5 team?

Our biggest mistake was and still is the Kessel deal. This extended off-season isn't even helping the leafs that much.

Sure our specs are getting more time, but it's not like we have that great a core of specs.

Now, if we hadn't traded kessel.

1 of Seguin or Hall (depending on how much worse we are with out Kessel)
Knight
1 of Hamilton, Zibanejad, Scheifele, Strome, Larsson, Huberdeau, Landeskog, RNH (depending on how much worse we are with out Kessel)

And thats not even considering, that if we had gone into a steady rebuild, players like Grabo/Kulie/MacA could of been moved for more picks.

A future D core of...

Rielly, Hamilton, Gardiner, Finn, Blacker, Percy, Holzer, Gunnarsson

Thats something to get excited about...

Rielly - Hamilton
Gardiner - Finn
Blacker - Percy/Holzer/Gunnar
I agree with you for the most part and you make some valid points however I disagee with you on the Kessel trade. At the time we had a chance to get a potentially elite player in return for draft picks and Burke and company had no clue those 2 firsts would turn out to be both top 10 ones at the time, trades are a gamble no matter how you look at it. Kessel is a PPG player now, guys like him are very hard to come guy so yes the price we payed to get him was worth it in the end. I don't think either team lost that deal, we got an elite first line sniper which we badly needed for 20 years, and Boston needed a top centre to replace Savard which they got, they also beefed up their blueline too, nothing wrong with both sides getting their needs met.

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11-18-2012, 03:31 PM
  #105
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It sucks that if there is no season the assets that could have been aquired with selling off MacArthur Connolly Lombardi (assuming he was better this season) etc.

But I was dreaming of next season and had a thought. As stupid as it is to dream about free agent signings, I give you this scenario.

If the Leafs were able to sign Getzlaf they would fill the #1C without giving up any other assets and could be set up for the future both long term and short.

Now cut me some slack on the third line, I know maybe I'm still dreaming a little but just for conversation sake.

13-14

Lupul Getzlaf Kessel
JVR Grabo Kulemin
Frattin Colbourne Kadri
Komarov McClemment Brown Devane? (if not Devane anyone who is tough enough to fight anybody on the Bruins roster)

I'm not going to do the pairings but the defense hypothetically would be made up of these players:

Phaneuf Rielly Gardiner Liles Gunnerson Holzer Blacker
still a little soft for my liking but probably able to hold their own.

All that remains is goaltending but if the Leafs get Getzlaf while giving up nothing but money, after another season of experience for the young kids on the 3rd a combination including any of Lupul Kulemin and whatever young defense prospects we feel we can give up or picks and one of Reimer or another goalie prospect could be moved to acquire a solid goaltender. It does't need to be an elite goalie but someone who can provide consistent play in net.

Then with Lupul or Kulemin gone (or both if we're gonna get a star goalie) Kadri or Frattin can graduate to the top 6 with Biggs hopefully coming along in 14-15 to be our protoypical third line player.
Colbourne Biggs and Frattin on a line would be dynamite if only one spot needs to be filled in the top 6.

Also most of those young players are still going to be on relatively cheap contracts. Assuming Burke can resign Kessel and Phaneuf for a good cap hit this team would be set with Phaneuf Getzlaf Kessel JVR Grabo Biggs Frattin Kadri Colbourne Rielly Gardiner all signed long term.

I don't like to overvalue the talent on the roster but we know what we have in Kessel Getzlaf Phaneuf and Grabo, if the rest are able to live up or get close to their potential and a solid goaltender is acquired this could be a Chicago-like perfect storm of young contracts.

Anyway, I'm just bored with no hockey and thats my story book Leaf ending.

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Old
11-18-2012, 03:53 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
Why are you trying to deflect the conversation to other teams and GMs? We're talking specifically about how Burke handles his UFAs, and that there's a very good chance that Burke will not let a UFA walk without getting something in return for him.
I'm not sure how else I can make something so blatantly simple, easier to understand? There is a very good chance every GM in the NHL will lose players to UFA, without trading them first. This happens every single year, why you dont know this is beyond me. If memory serves me correct, Bozak-Connolly-Mac were all -players that were signed as free agents anyway. Nothing was expended to get these players except for money. Its part of the game, and to expect to trade all these UFA `s before they leave is unrealistic.

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11-18-2012, 04:13 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
I'm not sure how else I can make something so blatantly simple, easier to understand? There is a very good chance every GM in the NHL will lose players to UFA, without trading them first. This happens every single year, why you dont know this is beyond me. If memory serves me correct, Bozak-Connolly-Mac were all -players that were signed as free agents anyway. Nothing was expended to get these players except for money. Its part of the game, and to expect to trade all these UFA `s before they leave is unrealistic.
How can you apply what "most GMs" have done to what Burke has done?

Most GMs' teams make the playoffs, therefore, I conclude Burke has a very good chance to make the playoffs.


Last edited by Hurt: 11-18-2012 at 04:21 PM. Reason: Keep the personal insults to yourself
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Old
11-18-2012, 04:20 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
How can you apply what "most GMs" have done to what Burke has done?

Most GMs' teams make the playoffs, therefore, I conclude Burke has a very good chance to make the playoffs.
All teams lose their players at one time or another to UFA. That is a fact.


Last edited by Hurt: 11-18-2012 at 04:22 PM. Reason: Keep the personal insults to yourself
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Old
11-18-2012, 04:26 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
All teams lose their players at one time or another to UFA. That is a fact.
The point of the previous post was to show how erroneous generalizations can be when they're not applied correctly.

Burke is one of the GMs who, as he has shown in his time in Toronto, is not very likely to let free agents walk for nothing. I don't care what other GMs do to with their teams, and how they handle their pending UFAs. It has no bearing on what Burke does.

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Old
11-18-2012, 04:47 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by BlueBaron View Post
We do know they made an offer to Brad Richards, and that they had flown to Sweden to make offers to the Sedins. Are those big enough for you ?
We know the Sedins never hit UFA. We know he made an offer to Richards but it was widely reported his intent from the outset was to sign in NYR (and his actions with respect to the courting backed that up). We know he wasn't interested in Kovalchuk. We know Parise and Suter were interested in playing in a specific area. These are all things we know. Can you name the other UFA you wanted and provide any evidence an offer was made to them?

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Old
11-18-2012, 05:03 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
But are you being realistic?

Reality suggests that at this time the Leafs are not a very good team. If you took the last 4 seasons and combined points (wins) etc you would see only Edmonton, NYI & Columbus have produced less.



Our Leafs and Columbus are separated by a mere 3 points over the course of the past 4 seasons combined. Some fans must see their own Leafs team other than the actual results show it really is, and the stats don't lie. We're (at this point) essentially the Canadian version of the Columbus Blue Jackets equivalent in competitiveness at present.
Thank you. They made the playoffs

Quote:
So we're not talking about a cup competitive team here, that fans want to deconstruct to gain high draft picks at the expense of success. This is a bottom 10 NHL team that fans simply want them to build up future assets through the draft process like more Morgan Rielly types now, while the team is in a down cycle in order to be cup competitive in the future.

Short-term pain for long-term gain, where mediocrity of being neither gains this team nothing.. While on principle fans might be desiring success instead of failure that can't simply be accomplished by desire and a bad team does not become a good team overnight, unless it has the talent on its team to compete with the best.
You know what's weird.
The team behind us and the one tied with us *gasp* made the playoffs! I don't think you can say that this IS the way its going to be.

With our coaching change, and pairing down our GA, we could make the playoffs too.

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Old
11-18-2012, 08:14 PM
  #112
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who is he referring to when he says this? Schenn maybe? I don't see having Mo Riles in a leafs uni as being a bad thing. why would it hurt him? because he's going to be playing for a struggling team? so what. all young (potential) stars play for bad teams after they are drafted.
A few days ago Brian Burke said when and if training camp starts they would bring up Morgan Rielly to be apart of it. Had there not been a lockout Rielly would have been here for training camp in September.

Now if Cox is trying to make a comparison to Luke Schenn and how he made the Leafs out of training camp for the 2008-2009 season, my guess is that's because now he's not with them anymore.

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11-18-2012, 08:23 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
A few days ago Brian Burke said when and if training camp starts they would bring up Morgan Rielly to be apart of it. Had there not been a lockout Rielly would have been here for training camp in September.

Now if Cox is trying to make a comparison to Luke Schenn and how he made the Leafs out of training camp for the 2008-2009 season, my guess is that's because now he's not with them anymore.
I think Burke would give Rielly the same chance he gave Gardiner last year, it will be up to Rielly to show he belongs here or needs more development in the minors.

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11-18-2012, 09:43 PM
  #114
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Prospects that need to be in the AHL are going to be there whether there is a lockout or not. There is also no reason to believe that we would keep Rielly up, or that it would ruin his development for that matter.

There is no benefit from losing the season.

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11-18-2012, 09:46 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Prospects that need to be in the AHL are going to be there whether there is a lockout or not. There is also no reason to believe that we would keep Rielly up, or that it would ruin his development for that matter.

There is no benefit from losing the season.
I think because of Rielly's injury from last season and all the games he missed, lockout or no lockout he would have been sent back to the WHL had training camp started in Setember.

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11-18-2012, 10:44 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
I think because of Rielly's injury from last season and all the games he missed, lockout or no lockout he would have been sent back to the WHL had training camp started in Setember.
Maybe, maybe not. Gardiner wasn't supposed to be able to handle the rigors of a full NHL season coming straight out of college, but he managed to do all right. Would the 9 game "trial" (or whatever the limit is) be enough to judge that, though?

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11-19-2012, 11:47 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
Maybe, maybe not. Gardiner wasn't supposed to be able to handle the rigors of a full NHL season coming straight out of college, but he managed to do all right. Would the 9 game "trial" (or whatever the limit is) be enough to judge that, though?
If they want to give him the 9 game trial to see what he has I have no problem with that. However my first choice is to send him back to the WHL because I still think he needs to finish the year there. So if they give him the 9 games and send him back at least he got that experience.

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11-19-2012, 12:39 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
We would know if they made offers to top UFA's.
But they did make offers and they did come out in the media. Burke just didn't throw 15 year contracts at them.

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11-19-2012, 12:46 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by hero View Post
Meh, few players want to play in Toronto it seems, and to be honest, what player wants to go to a bottom 5 team?

Our biggest mistake was and still is the Kessel deal. This extended off-season isn't even helping the leafs that much.

Sure our specs are getting more time, but it's not like we have that great a core of specs.

Now, if we hadn't traded kessel.

1 of Seguin or Hall (depending on how much worse we are with out Kessel)
Knight
1 of Hamilton, Zibanejad, Scheifele, Strome, Larsson, Huberdeau, Landeskog, RNH (depending on how much worse we are with out Kessel)

And thats not even considering, that if we had gone into a steady rebuild, players like Grabo/Kulie/MacA could of been moved for more picks.

A future D core of...

Rielly, Hamilton, Gardiner, Finn, Blacker, Percy, Holzer, Gunnarsson

Thats something to get excited about...

Rielly - Hamilton
Gardiner - Finn
Blacker - Percy/Holzer/Gunnar
Even if things had gone differently you can't guarantee that we get those prospects. If Burke goes the route that you're saying then he doesn't get Versteeg who was eventually flipped for the pick to get Percy, he doesn't sign beauchemin who he then can't flip for Lupul and Gardiner. Maybe the scrub players we're using who are trying to prove something play just well enough to put us out of range of these picks.

I hate when people try and use hindsight as some indicator of what could've happened without taking all of the variables into consideration. Hell, taking a different route could've put us in an even worse position.

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11-19-2012, 03:39 PM
  #120
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Hell, taking a different route could've put us in an even worse position.
Statistically, it is actually extremely likely that it would have.

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Old
11-19-2012, 05:53 PM
  #121
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Is Holzer going to make the Leafs whether it be come this season or next, and will he be able to make an impact (in his first year and in his career)?

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11-19-2012, 06:38 PM
  #122
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And the Toronto Star might be better off without Cox.

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11-19-2012, 07:07 PM
  #123
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And the Toronto Star might be better off without Cox.
Huh?

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Old
11-19-2012, 07:21 PM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
And the Toronto Star might be better off without Cox.
Shoot the messenger? Comments like that always just seem uptight and parochial to me. Cox makes a reasonable case here that the Leafs might be better off letting the young talent play where they are. You don't find that position even a little thought provoking?

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11-19-2012, 08:20 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by PG Canuck View Post
Is Holzer going to make the Leafs whether it be come this season or next, and will he be able to make an impact (in his first year and in his career)?
Well.... if you look at the players in front of him that includes Phaneuf/Gardiner/Liles/
Gunnarsson, he'll be fighting it out with Komi for a bottom position at the same time looking over his shoulder at Rielly for a spot, this all assumes that Franson isn't back. Yes, I think he'll be a bottom pairing guy at best, and a depth pairing guy at worst IMO.

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