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Old
11-19-2012, 05:34 PM
  #676
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Campoli isn't at the table tonight apparently. It's about time.

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11-19-2012, 05:36 PM
  #677
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Originally Posted by vokiel View Post
I think they would do a lottery of equal opportunity for all teams. Isn't that what they did last time?
Not all teams had the same numbers of chances in the last lottery.

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11-19-2012, 05:40 PM
  #678
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Originally Posted by Forsead View Post
Not all teams had the same numbers of chances in the last lottery.
You mean after the last lockout? I don't know then.

Edit: there's a thread about it however: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1244645

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11-19-2012, 05:46 PM
  #679
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RNH vs Yakupov?
vs Galchenyuk in a triple threat match?

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Old
11-19-2012, 06:31 PM
  #680
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NHL, NHLPA resume talks, as 9 days of paid vacation come to an end for negotiators.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/...d-revenue.html

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11-19-2012, 07:37 PM
  #681
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Originally Posted by vokiel View Post
You mean after the last lockout? I don't know then.

Edit: there's a thread about it however: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1244645
Yeah last lockout it was a weighed lottery system.

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11-19-2012, 08:04 PM
  #682
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IF there is ever a season, the start of it will be very weird with about 30% - 35% of players in game shape and the rest with almost no real training camps or pre season games under the belt.

Which team(s) gonna benefit from that ?

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11-19-2012, 08:16 PM
  #683
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Barely 2 hours tonight, looks like they will meet again tomorrow

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11-19-2012, 09:05 PM
  #684
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The Canadian dollar spent very little time at 63 cents, seeing as how that was the record low.

It was at ~85 cents when the last CBA was negotiated.

Isn't the bold playing with the truth? Sure, they signed when it was .85 but when they went on lockout it was 71 with a weak point beforehand. I think the context is important.

What he said isn't wrong. From Prior CBA to 2005 on, the CDN was significantly better. A lot of the league growth has come from CDN rising and not actual league growth.

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11-19-2012, 09:13 PM
  #685
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http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=409856

I personally find it hilarious that these guys say this:

Quote:
"Obviously I'm really frustrated, It's not good," said Versteeg. "You do try to look at the best case scenarios moving forward once the CBA does get done and you gotta look for the cancers and you gotta cut out the cancer.

"I think when you look at Bill Daly and Bettman they've been polluting this game for far too long."

Versteeg went on to say that Daly and Bettman should be replaced once a new CBA is reached for the good of the fans.
The fans are going on NHL's side now. Not everybody but a lot. Look at top voted comments in that very article. Everyone is blasting the players.

I won't get into the owners vs players debate but I don't see how the NHL is stupid when NHLPA is the exact same.

People need to stop living in a dream world where players are 'giving stuff up'. They aren't giving anything up. THERE IS NO CONTRACT. Everything from before doesn't even exist anymore. It's over, this is a new deal. What is fair? That is the question. Not what is fair relative to before.

Now, does it mean owners are being fair? maybe not. I just hate hearing "we're giving up so much". The players have zero salary to give up right now.

I don't know how many ways to explain this. The contracts are basically void until a CBA is signed. They are conditional on a CBA, that simple.

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11-19-2012, 09:18 PM
  #686
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The players need to give up this illusion that they "gave up a lot" last work stoppage, salaries rose 80% in 8 years and the best players still made their big contracts(see Ovechkin Crosby Weber Parise Suter etc etc)...yet to heat them talk the last CBA had them going to soup kitchens and food banks on a daily basis.

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11-19-2012, 09:39 PM
  #687
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=409856

I personally find it hilarious that these guys say this:



The fans are going on NHL's side now. Not everybody but a lot. Look at top voted comments in that very article. Everyone is blasting the players.

I won't get into the owners vs players debate but I don't see how the NHL is stupid when NHLPA is the exact same.

People need to stop living in a dream world where players are 'giving stuff up'. They aren't giving anything up. THERE IS NO CONTRACT. Everything from before doesn't even exist anymore. It's over, this is a new deal. What is fair? That is the question. Not what is fair relative to before.

Now, does it mean owners are being fair? maybe not. I just hate hearing "we're giving up so much". The players have zero salary to give up right now.

I don't know how many ways to explain this. The contracts are basically void until a CBA is signed. They are conditional on a CBA, that simple.
Your idea is nice in the abstract but is not how things are done. Human beings always take into account the current situation before evaluating the next step.

When you sign a new lease for an apartment, is the price not usually correlated by the previous rental price? Yes, it is always correlated. That is why landlords often want to evict tenants, so that they can move rental costs to the market average.

Similarly in negotiations with unionized workers. The previous salary + inflation is usually the starting point. What do you think would happen if the government imposed a 13% salary rollback and said to the union "the previous contract is void" ??? Hint: massive strikes.

Finally, there have been rigorous studies in economics/sociology demonstrating that your starting salary out of college, even if it's an underpayment/overpayment, determines your salary to a very significant extent 20 or 30 years down the line.

Bottom line is that currently the players get 57% and owners receive 43%; any change downward is a concession from the players. The players are willing to make concessions; however, the owners have offered zero concessions thus far. I'm guessing that therein lies the cause of the negotiating impassa.


Last edited by DAChampion: 11-19-2012 at 09:48 PM.
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Old
11-19-2012, 09:40 PM
  #688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=409856

I personally find it hilarious that these guys say this:



The fans are going on NHL's side now. Not everybody but a lot. Look at top voted comments in that very article. Everyone is blasting the players.

I won't get into the owners vs players debate but I don't see how the NHL is stupid when NHLPA is the exact same.

People need to stop living in a dream world where players are 'giving stuff up'. They aren't giving anything up. THERE IS NO CONTRACT. Everything from before doesn't even exist anymore. It's over, this is a new deal. What is fair? That is the question. Not what is fair relative to before.

Now, does it mean owners are being fair? maybe not. I just hate hearing "we're giving up so much". The players have zero salary to give up right now.

I don't know how many ways to explain this. The contracts are basically void until a CBA is signed. They are conditional on a CBA, that simple.
They also don't seem to understand that many will lose more money from taking a full year off than accepting a 12% rollback.
Nobody will gain from a lost season, it's in nobody's interest.

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Old
11-19-2012, 09:41 PM
  #689
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Isn't the bold playing with the truth? Sure, they signed when it was .85 but when they went on lockout it was 71 with a weak point beforehand. I think the context is important.

What he said isn't wrong. From Prior CBA to 2005 on, the CDN was significantly better. A lot of the league growth has come from CDN rising and not actual league growth.
OK, then you can use 85 cents for the second season of the post-lockout era, when the cap was 44 million.

The cap then proceeded to go to 70.2 million (60% increase), whereas the dollar rose from ~0.85 to ~1.00 (17% increase), and note that the fraction of league revenue from Canada is around a third.

So for every dollar in league growth since then, a dime or less has come from increases in the Canadian dollar.

If it has had an impact it is that it has changed which teams are weak and which are strong. When the Edmonton Oilers and Ottawa Senators are weak, nobody carries, it won't cause a lockout. However, when the Boston Bruins, Washington Capitals, and Minnesota Wild are weakened... that matters a lot more. That is when you get a lockout, because those teams are more important as their owners are on the executive committee.


Last edited by DAChampion: 11-19-2012 at 09:50 PM.
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11-19-2012, 09:43 PM
  #690
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
The players need to give up this illusion that they "gave up a lot" last work stoppage, salaries rose 80% in 8 years and the best players still made their big contracts(see Ovechkin Crosby Weber Parise Suter etc etc)...yet to heat them talk the last CBA had them going to soup kitchens and food banks on a daily basis.
The players got 80% more, but the owners got 180% more. Without the changes in the last CBA they would have both had the same amount of growth. Median player salary might be half a million a year higher.

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11-19-2012, 09:44 PM
  #691
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
They also don't seem to understand that many will lose more money from taking a full year off than accepting a 12% rollback.
Nobody will gain from a lost season, it's in nobody's interest.
They covered that possibility by asking Fehr to ask for lockout damages in the CBA negotiations.

Quote:
- Fehr: Who's gonna pay for the damages this lockout has caused?
- Bettman: Your mom
Ok cheap shot

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11-19-2012, 09:49 PM
  #692
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The high profile/high paid players better get involved soon, they'll never recoup their losses if 1/2 the season is gone....never mind a full season.

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11-19-2012, 09:53 PM
  #693
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Fehr and the PA showed up late once again to a meeting they organized and once again did not come with a proposal. What a joke.

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Old
11-19-2012, 10:03 PM
  #694
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Your idea is nice in the abstract but is not how things are done. Human beings always take into account the current situation before evaluating the next step.

When you sign a new lease for an apartment, is the price not usually correlated by the previous rental price? Yes, it is always correlated. That is why landlords often want to evict tenants, so that they can move rental costs to the market average.

Similarly in negotiations with unionized workers. The previous salary + inflation is usually the starting point. What do you think would happen if the government imposed a 13% salary rollback and said to the union "the previous contract is void" ??? Hint: massive strikes.

Finally, there have been rigorous studies in economics/sociology demonstrating that your starting salary out of college, even if it's an underpayment/overpayment, determines your salary to a very significant extent 20 or 30 years down the line.

Bottom line is that currently the players get 57% and owners receive 43%; any change downward is a concession from the players. The players are willing to make concessions; however, the owners have offered zero concessions thus far. I'm guessing t that that is the cause of the negotiating pass.
They don't have to say the previous contract is void. It just is, if this were a programming statement it's an IF statement that fails and the program ends. The contracts are conditional on there being a CBA. Should they NHL refuse to sign a deal forever the player will never ever ever get that money. Simple.

Okay it's related but what does this prove? They aren't the same context, you know that.

As for unionized workers, this is a better example but still fundamentally different. The government can't really impose a rollback and if they did it wouldn't even make sense, they get money off of taxes. Unless these are government jobs and either way, you can't sign a contract then do a rollback, the contract includes one. I don't think you're following, this isn't the NHL saying previous contract is void. It is expired, what's so complicated. July 1st(or June 30th, whatever) 2012. Finished, done. It's not hard to grasp, it's not that old contracts are voided, it's that they aren't functional without a new CBA.

And so it does, but rollbacks happen in life, even to those who make more out of college.

Again, the players do not get 57%, the owners do not get 43%. They both get zero, nada. I can use google translate and figure out how to say zero in 15 languages if you like but it's still zero. They are making a new contract, a new deal.

People gotta stop talking about old contract, it's a reference point, that's it. I'll agree there, but it does NOT change the fact the players are giving up nothing. They have nothing to give, it is EXPIRED. Now, they make a new deal relative to the old one and what is fair. However, the old deal is just a piece of paper and a reference, it is not actually rights they possess. It is not actual contracts they have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
They also don't seem to understand that many will lose more money from taking a full year off than accepting a 12% rollback.
Nobody will gain from a lost season, it's in nobody's interest.
I think NHL and NHLPA spent too long with PR stuff. Get to it and do what needs to be done. I can wait but come back with a solid deal for the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
OK, then you can use 85 cents for the second season of the post-lockout era, when the cap was 44 million.

The cap then proceeded to go to 70.2 million (60% increase), whereas the dollar rose from ~0.85 to ~1.00 (17% increase), and note that the fraction of league revenue from Canada is around a third.

So for every dollar in league growth since then, a dime or less has come from increases in the Canadian dollar.

If it has had an impact it is that it has changed which teams are weak and which are strong. When the Edmonton Oilers and Ottawa Senators are weak, nobody carries, it won't cause a lockout. However, when the Boston Bruins, Washington Capitals, and Minnesota Wild are weakened... that matters a lot more. That is when you get a lockout, because those teams are more important as their owners are on the executive committee.
The NHL was recovering, when fans got back into it it showed real numbers. I get what you're saying, putting the basis on first year to last of the CBA but they were returning and gaining momentum. Also big TV deal and return to canada with the jets all boost the numbers. The growth hasn't been as big as the numbers indicate is what I'm saying. I think it's fair to say some is from the dollar, Jets and TV deal and not actual growth in small markets.

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11-19-2012, 10:15 PM
  #695
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They also don't seem to understand that many will lose more money from taking a full year off than accepting a 12% rollback.
Nobody will gain from a lost season, it's in nobody's interest.
You don't seem to understand the concept behind unions and collective bargaining. It is about making a better future and fighting for your rights, not about taking whatever is thrown at you.

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11-19-2012, 10:29 PM
  #696
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You don't seem to understand the concept behind unions and collective bargaining. It is about making a better future and fighting for your rights, not about taking whatever is thrown at you.
It's also about power.

If the union always instantaneously caves to whatever and any demands the owners have because losing a season is expensive, as Kriss E suggests they do, the lives of players are likely to get worse here on out. Perhaps, 20 years from now, they could lose their pensions and health care for example. A great many ex-players would then be economically ruined.

There are precedents throughout the North American private sector to demonstrate what happens to unions and their members that decide to be weak because they don't like short-term pain.

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11-19-2012, 10:33 PM
  #697
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It's also about power.

If the union always instantaneously caves to whatever and any demands the owners have because losing a season is expensive, as Kriss E suggests they do, the lives of players are likely to get worse here on out. Perhaps, 20 years from now, they could lose their pensions and health care for example. A great many ex-players would then be economically ruined.

There are precedents throughout the North American private sector to demonstrate what happens to unions and their members that decide to be weak because they don't like short-term pain.
I am detecting a very heavy anti-union sentiment on these boards. The years of propaganda seem to have worked their magic. Funny how people here are calling the elite players "greedy" and "selfish" when they are the ones ensuring the lower end players get protected.

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11-19-2012, 10:40 PM
  #698
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You don't seem to understand the concept behind unions and collective bargaining. It is about making a better future and fighting for your rights, not about taking whatever is thrown at you.
Right, because agreeing to a rollback means the future will be a struggle..
Fighting for your rights? Really? I wonder what's your take on the Gaza situation..

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
It's also about power.

If the union always instantaneously caves to whatever and any demands the owners have because losing a season is expensive, as Kriss E suggests they do, the lives of players are likely to get worse here on out. Perhaps, 20 years from now, they could lose their pensions and health care for example. A great many ex-players would then be economically ruined.

There are precedents throughout the North American private sector to demonstrate what happens to unions and their members that decide to be weak because they don't like short-term pain.
Actually, I never said they should agree to whatever demand. Never said they should agree to the first deal. I said at some point you have to agree on things, no matter if you feel you're not getting such a great deal. At the end of the day, things will be just fine. They will be.

I find it rather ridiculous too that you try to defend these millionaires from not having a pension or health care because they can't manage their millions and millions of dollars. Are you freaking serious with this crap?

There are people in this world that don't have a pension, or health care, at all, yet you're trying to get sympathy for those millionaires?? The heck man?

If they lose all their cash, so be it, it's the price you pay for being a moron.

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11-19-2012, 11:02 PM
  #699
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I am detecting a very heavy anti-union sentiment on these boards. The years of propaganda seem to have worked their magic. Funny how people here are calling the elite players "greedy" and "selfish" when they are the ones ensuring the lower end players get protected.
I don't like many unions in real world jobs either. Then again, different types of unions.

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11-19-2012, 11:14 PM
  #700
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Right, because agreeing to a rollback means the future will be a struggle..
Fighting for your rights? Really? I wonder what's your take on the Gaza situation..
Gaza is not playing a role in the NHL lockout.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Actually, I never said they should agree to whatever demand. Never said they should agree to the first deal. I said at some point you have to agree on things, no matter if you feel you're not getting such a great deal. At the end of the day, things will be just fine. They will be.

I find it rather ridiculous too that you try to defend these millionaires from not having a pension or health care because they can't manage their millions and millions of dollars. Are you freaking serious with this crap?

There are people in this world that don't have a pension, or health care, at all, yet you're trying to get sympathy for those millionaires?? The heck man?

If they lose all their cash, so be it, it's the price you pay for being a moron.
It is a well-known statistic that most people who win the lottery frequently end up broke.

You call the players "morons", how sharp do you think you'd be if your job required you to forego any serious education from age 15 onward, and if your brain suffered 2 or 3 concussions?

By the way, the small minority of players who went through the NCAA for one or two years where they took courses as part of a communications studies major don't invalidate my point at all.

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