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Old
11-19-2012, 09:08 PM
  #376
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I'll refer you back to post 300 where I gave the example of British Columbia which wasn't a traditional Canadian feeder into the NHL.

This pattern also happened in the maritime provinces as well.
What trend has been happening in the Maritimes? Population has at least doubled in my time, and yet I've seen teams in certain age groups have to merge with neighbouring towns to form a single team, and I think enrollment (of boys, anyway) is actually on the decline. Same for pretty much every province out here, btw. And trust me when I say the trend was a lot worse around the 90s, when times were even harder out here.

Edit: Here are the last decade+ of hockey registration numbers for Hockey Canada.

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11-19-2012, 09:11 PM
  #377
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
There's a HUGE difference between trying to succeed as an offensive team and trying to succeed as an offensive team led by Gretzky or Lemieux. HUGE HUGE difference!
Not to mention that that same team with the same personnel tried doing it the opposite way the next two years and wound up going home early just the same.

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11-19-2012, 09:13 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Orr was the best player of his generation, let's put that aside for a bit and wonder how dominant he would have been without expansion and the NHL remains a 6 team league?
See this post. Even with none of the dilution, Orr was scoring at a pace nearly double the next best. Never mind the eyeball test, how he simply blew past defenders unlike anyone else in... history?

He was simply a phenomenon, era doesn't account for it.

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Wayne also has a bit of a perfect storm thing going on as well.
True, but Wayne also dominated the period that we are agreeing was the most talent-flush period in NHL history as a 30+ year old. And again, the eyball test shows he was playing the game at a level that at times was simply astonishing. He operated at a level rarely seen in any sport, and I'll leave it at that.

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In a later era with an emphasis on two way play from everyone he doesn't score and dominate offensively as much either.
Gretzky was just as capable of playing defense as guys like Backstrom and Savard who have managed to thrive in the current NHL. I don't see what the problem would be.

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Ditto for Mario.
Again, I don't see why Mario would be considered anything worse than a much, much, much better version of Getzlaf or Eric Staal.

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I think that something that doesn't get considered enough with guys like Wayne and Mario is how they were allowed to play all out offense and were not expected, and didn't play defensively at all.

On the surface offensively they tower over a guy like Datsyuk but take in the total game and the dominance is a bit less.

We have seen how an all out offensive team like Washington has fared and the tinkering that has gone on. It's pure speculation but the modern game would have some influence on the 3 super gods me thinks.
So they would score 150 points instead of 200? I'm just not buying this line of argument at all. We're talking about players who didn't just score a lot of points, they created goals out of the clear blue in a manner not seen before or since. And you are going to shackle this guy to his own goalpost so he "only" scores at a level that blows everyone away and not at a level that makes a mockery of the league?

edit: A last thought on the Datsyuk/Mario thing... Datsyuk was 24 and had played nearly 150 games in the NHL when a 37-year-old Mario scored nearly 1.4 PPG, coming in second behind Forsberg. Datsyuk was 27 when a geriatric Mario finally retired after a 22-in-26 partial season. How far can this "players don't play like that anymore" really stretch?


Last edited by tarheelhockey: 11-19-2012 at 09:30 PM.
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11-19-2012, 09:37 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
And unlike most comparisons to Lidstrom, the physicality and nastiness really means something here because it's in addition to a brilliant positional game.

I guess the ball's back in Lidstrom's court then.
You've got to be kidding. One post with a short highlight video and it's "back in Lidstrom's court"?

You agreed the talent pool may be as much as 3X what is was back then and this is all it took to convince you Harvey is "superior" (R71's words)?

Something isn't right here. No one else noticed this extremely short but apparently terribly convincing exchange?? All I can do is giggle to myself, seriously.

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11-19-2012, 09:41 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
He remains the best player of his generation and he still wins 2 Art Ross.
Does he score at the same rate was the actual question I was trying to get at.



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Here we go again, the unproven "Perfect Storm" argument and once I will ask the same question I do every time you bring it up.
Was Gretzky the product of a perfect storm or was he the creator of it?
He can be both in the early 80's but it doesn't make it true if he starts in the late 90's




Quote:
PROVE IT!
They were allowed to play all out offense because their offense was so far in front of everyone elses that their defense didn't matter.
It's an opinion and almost all forwards were allowed to play all out offense in the 80's. coaches, systems and adherence to at least some defensive play is adhered to by almost all players in near recent times. Surely it has some impact on scoring?

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If you mean in that on a scale of 1-10 that Dats is an 8 offensively and a 10 defensively vs Wayne and Mario being 20's offensively and only 3 defensively.
Then yes, Dats makes up some ground but his "total" game still isn't as dominant as Wayne and Mario's offense on its own.
Wayne and Mario are both better offensively than Dats but twice as good?

That's a real stretch IMO.

Maybe you should watch Dats more closely instead of just counting stats.


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There's a HUGE difference between trying to succeed as an offensive team and trying to succeed as an offensive team led by Gretzky or Lemieux. HUGE HUGE difference!
There is also a huge difference in the 80's and early 90's to post lockout. Simply playing all out offense isn't a recipe for success.
Coaches coach defense because it is a greater indicator and leads to more success for a variety of reasons.

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11-19-2012, 09:46 PM
  #381
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
You can't argue this here against Harvey and then completely ignore it vs Bourque.
My comp in this thread has to do with Harvey and Lidstrom, pretty sure I have shown how the voting records would favour Lidstrom over Harvey.

If I wanted to address Lidstrom to another player I would have done so.

But it seems like you don't want to acknowledge what I have put forward and want to distract things with you favorite topic.

I think that the increased competition and time period where Lidstrom has his accomplishments pushes him over the edge if there is any doubt in a direct peer versus peer comp.

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11-19-2012, 09:49 PM
  #382
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Wayne and Mario are both better offensively than Dats but twice as good?

That's a real stretch IMO.

Maybe you should watch Dats more closely instead of just counting stats.
I'm pretty sure everyone here HAS watched Datsyuk.....and if anyone is putting him in the same conversation as Gretzky and Lemieux they should apologize for even thinking it.

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11-19-2012, 09:53 PM
  #383
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
What trend has been happening in the Maritimes? Population has at least doubled in my time, and yet I've seen teams in certain age groups have to merge with neighbouring towns to form a single team, and I think enrollment (of boys, anyway) is actually on the decline. Same for pretty much every province out here, btw. And trust me when I say the trend was a lot worse around the 90s, when times were even harder out here.

Edit: Here are the last decade+ of hockey registration numbers for Hockey Canada.
I have posted the NHL players from the maritime s in chronological order in the following

http://www.hockey-reference.com/friv...ince=NL&state=

http://www.hockey-reference.com/friv...ince=PE&state=

http://www.hockey-reference.com/friv...ince=NS&state=

The biggest impact has been Nova Scotia.

This has happened in the maritime, BC and virtually every US state as well.

And of course the explosion of talent from Europe.

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11-19-2012, 10:23 PM
  #384
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
See this post. Even with none of the dilution, Orr was scoring at a pace nearly double the next best. Never mind the eyeball test, how he simply blew past defenders unlike anyone else in... history?

He was simply a phenomenon, era doesn't account for it.
So even in the 12 team league he scores at a lower rate against the other 5 06 teams, my main point still stands, in an original 06 league (if expansion hadn't taken he would still dominate but he doesn't do so at the same level and that's what my point was.

We both agree that he was a phenom, my point is that he looks even more phenomenal in part due to the expansion. I don't think that is a stretch at all.

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True, but Wayne also dominated the period that we are agreeing was the most talent-flush period in NHL history as a 30+ year old. And again, the eyball test shows he was playing the game at a level that at times was simply astonishing. He operated at a level rarely seen in any sport, and I'll leave it at that.
Once again he hits his peak in real stats (and adjusted) in his early 20's and takes a noticeable dip at age 26, still great but a little less so.

Wayne is my pick for the best player of all time so I really don't have too much of a problem putting him into the super god category but for many reasons and not just his scoring dominance.

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Gretzky was just as capable of playing defense as guys like Backstrom and Savard who have managed to thrive in the current NHL. I don't see what the problem would be.
My only point is that if he actually was playing defense then his statistical dominance would have been less IMO.

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Again, I don't see why Mario would be considered anything worse than a much, much, much better version of Getzlaf or Eric Staal.
Getzlaf has been inconsistent but when he is on his game he is closer to dominating games than Stall IMO.

I'll speak more to Mario at the end here.

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So they would score 150 points instead of 200? I'm just not buying this line of argument at all. We're talking about players who didn't just score a lot of points, they created goals out of the clear blue in a manner not seen before or since. And you are going to shackle this guy to his own goalpost so he "only" scores at a level that blows everyone away and not at a level that makes a mockery of the league?

edit: A last thought on the Datsyuk/Mario thing... Datsyuk was 24 and had played nearly 150 games in the NHL when a 37-year-old Mario scored nearly 1.4 PPG, coming in second behind Forsberg. Datsyuk was 27 when a geriatric Mario finally retired after a 22-in-26 partial season. How far can this "players don't play like that anymore" really stretch?
Mario is in a sense the most skilled compiler in histroy though, he doesn't have that aura like Wayne of being a winner and he sure wasn't playing defense on those last few years on those Pittsburgh teams (or ever for that matter).

In that age 37 season that you are talking about only 3 Pens have a worse plus minus than Mario had.

Mario had sick offensive skill but it simply would not dominate (or be as important in a post 92 NHL (post lockout even moreso) in the manner that he was offensively in before 92.

Okay the one year 93 exception.

I'm not sure if my thoughts are coming out clearly on Mario as I'm very tired but will relook at it and have lots of time to think how he ranks on the all time Center list.

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11-19-2012, 10:35 PM
  #385
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I'm pretty sure everyone here HAS watched Datsyuk.....and if anyone is putting him in the same conversation as Gretzky and Lemieux they should apologize for even thinking it.
Well I know that Wayne and especially Mario would never be considered 200 foot players but don't you think that's over reacting a bit?

On another thought, let's say that the Russian wall stays up and Dats has been center on the top line In Russia with AO and Kovy these last 7 or 8 years, maybe it would not be so absurd a thought.

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11-19-2012, 10:43 PM
  #386
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Well I know that Wayne and especially Mario would never be considered 200 foot players but don't you think that's over reacting a bit?

On another thought, let's say that the Russian wall stays up and Dats has been center on the top line In Russia with AO and Kovy these last 7 or 8 years, maybe it would not be so absurd a thought.
It doesn't make any difference whether they stayed or not. Gretzky and Lemieux were better players than anyone from Europe.....by a mile.

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11-19-2012, 10:52 PM
  #387
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
It doesn't make any difference whether they stayed or not. Gretzky and Lemieux were better players than anyone from Europe.....by a mile.
I'm kinda referring to how well Fetisov and his partner did in our top 60 despite having less than stellar NHL careers, even for their ages.

We can talk about how Dats stacks up in the all time (hopefully top 50) centers of all time list.

Pretty sure Wayne will be number 1 and can't wait to hear R71's thoughts on how Mario is outside of his PP offensive prowess.

I would also add that Makarov closes that mile as well.

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11-19-2012, 11:09 PM
  #388
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So even in the 12 team league he scores at a lower rate against the other 5 06 teams, my main point still stands, in an original 06 league (if expansion hadn't taken he would still dominate but he doesn't do so at the same level and that's what my point was.

We both agree that he was a phenom, my point is that he looks even more phenomenal in part due to the expansion. I don't think that is a stretch at all.
It's true that his scoring would have been lower without expansion -- but it would still have been at a level that is essentially unprecedented in history. A 97-point season by a defenseman under those conditions, where 97 points was the most ever scored by any player, would have been beyond unheard-of and into "are you sure that isn't a typo?" territory.

I'm willing to guess that if we took every player in NHL history and had them play in an undiluted 6-team league, Orr would still look considerably better than the pack.



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Once again he hits his peak in real stats (and adjusted) in his early 20's and takes a noticeable dip at age 26, still great but a little less so.
Gretzky scored 130 points to lead the league in 1994, which I think you would agree is sometime close to the highest concentration of talent in league history. That was on a non-playoff Kings team, coming off missing half a season with injury, as a 33-year-old. How many points does a healthy 22-year-old Gretzky score in that same situation? 170? 180? Pretty easily around 50% more than the next guy, right? And that's not in a perfect storm... I get what you're saying about a certain "80s Oilers discount", but you can only discount just so much and he still puts up numbers that are simply beyond the pale of normal play, so I'm not sure what it really means that the number might be 180 instead of 220.

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Mario is in a sense the most skilled compiler in histroy though, he doesn't have that aura like Wayne of being a winner and he sure wasn't playing defense on those last few years on those Pittsburgh teams (or ever for that matter).
And that was up until 2006, which is the middle of Datsyuk's career, so clearly "these days" Mario could just as easily have come into the league and played an offense-only game to great effect. And why wouldn't he? What would be the purpose of stunting that aspect of his game?

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11-19-2012, 11:13 PM
  #389
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You've got to be kidding. One post with a short highlight video and it's "back in Lidstrom's court"?

You agreed the talent pool may be as much as 3X what is was back then and this is all it took to convince you Harvey is "superior" (R71's words)?
I've been pretty clear post-to-post that I consider Lidstrom and Harvey to be essentially in a dead heat. R71 made the point that I wasn't accounting for Harvey's pure offensive ability and physicality, which are two things that Lidstrom simply doesn't have in significant measure. So I acknowledged a good point and put the rhetorical ball back in Lidstrom's court.

Is there a big deal event happening here? I'm only speaking for how I, personally, see the argument playing out and the scales moving back and forth.

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Something isn't right here. No one else noticed this extremely short but apparently terribly convincing exchange?? All I can do is giggle to myself, seriously.
What are you getting at here? I'm sure the mods can see my IP and verify for you that I'm sitting at a computer in North Carolina and R71 in Ontario, if you're trying to insinuate some kind of foul play.

I for one wish you would drop the personal attacks already, and respond to my posts with information instead of malice.

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11-19-2012, 11:36 PM
  #390
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I have posted the NHL players from the maritime s in chronological order in the following

http://www.hockey-reference.com/friv...ince=NL&state=

http://www.hockey-reference.com/friv...ince=PE&state=

http://www.hockey-reference.com/friv...ince=NS&state=

The biggest impact has been Nova Scotia.

This has happened in the maritime, BC and virtually every US state as well.

And of course the explosion of talent from Europe.
I still don't get what "impact" you're talking about. The number of players making it to the NHL from out here has increased with the exposure allowed by the increasing range, availability and affordability of air travel out this far. If population played a more significant role, then we would have produced more than just double the number of NHLers since the number of available jobs (since expansion) has doubled, tripled, quadrupled, and then quintupled; roughly 20 pre-expansion, and ~40 since. And again, I'm struggling to think of a single rink out here that keeps, or has kept, the ice in year-round (aside from maybe the newly-constructed BMO Centre).

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11-19-2012, 11:50 PM
  #391
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And again, I'm struggling to think of a single rink out here that keeps, or has kept, the ice in year-round (aside from maybe the newly-constructed BMO Centre).
This is a bit OT, but can you really not find indoor ice in Canada during the summer?

That's a jarring thought to me, being from outside the natural hockey climate, since all our rinks are year-round. It's never crossed my mind that it might actually be hard to find ice at times up north.

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11-19-2012, 11:57 PM
  #392
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This is a bit OT, but can you really not find indoor ice in Canada during the summer?

That's a jarring thought to me, being from outside the natural hockey climate, since all our rinks are year-round. It's never crossed my mind that it might actually be hard to find ice at times up north.
I'm from Halifax, the capital of Nova Scotia (and largest Canadian city east of Quebec City/Montreal - by far), have lived here well over 25 of my 35 years, and I'm struggling to think of more than one new (2010) place that keeps, or has kept, ice in straight through the summer (aside from summer hockey school weeks, which are obviously only open to those who enroll/ed). The new complex aside, all other rinks I can think of - including the Metro Centre - have numerous events that prohibit it, and are necessary sources of revenue. Even worse, the lakes barely freeze anymore these days, meaning it's even relatively hard (compared to my youth) to get out on skates in winter unless you drive to an arena and bring your wallet. I can basically see three different lakes (plus a glorified pond) from my house, but have to drive 15 minutes to get to a rink, lol. Well, not lol.


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11-19-2012, 11:59 PM
  #393
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I'm from Halifax, the capital of Nova Scotia, have lived here well over 25 of my 35 years, and I'm struggling to think of more than one new (2010) place that keeps, or has kept, ice in straight through the summer (aside from summer hockey school weeks, which are obviously only open to those who enroll/ed). The new complex aside, all other rinks - including the Metro Centre - have numerous events that prohibit it, and are necessary sources of revenue.
Man, that's crazy. Easier to find summer ice in Raleigh than Halifax... my mind is blown.

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11-20-2012, 12:02 AM
  #394
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Man, that's crazy. Easier to find summer ice in Raleigh than Halifax... my mind is blown.
Funny that, we have a bunch of year round ice over here in Tacoma.....including the Puget Sound Hockey Center.

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11-20-2012, 01:17 AM
  #395
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That's a jarring thought to me, being from outside the natural hockey climate, since all our rinks are year-round. It's never crossed my mind that it might actually be hard to find ice at times up north.
Southern Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta & BC, absolutely you've got a plethora of 365 days of the year indoor arenas' offering up Summer Leagues, Shinny, Camps, you name it. Particularly so in & around Toronto, most cities. From Quebec through the Maritimes however, different story.... odd though, I thought you were a Northeastern Transplant to NC Tarheel. Are your neighbours in the Containment Area for Relocated Yankees aware that your actually native to the area? Are you allowed to even be living behind those gates?

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11-20-2012, 03:51 AM
  #396
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When I think of hockey players that operated at a true "genius" level -- meaning if there were a league above the NHL where players could get called up to play against the hockey gods themselves, these guys would still be good players in that league -- I really only think of three names. Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux.
In other words: the size of the talent pool is a relevant factor in the evaluation of every player in history - except Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux.

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Shouldn't Harvey be judged on what his innovations allowed him to achieve, rather than on the fact that they were innovative?

That's a much improved reformulation of my earlier question: "Is originality of merit in hockey?" And the answer is: No, what you actually contribute to scoring/preventing goals is of merit, whether innovative or not.

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11-20-2012, 04:17 AM
  #397
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That's a much improved reformulation of my earlier question: "Is originality of merit in hockey?" And the answer is: No, what you actually contribute to scoring/preventing goals is of merit, whether innovative or not.
I think it's pretty clear that Harvey's "new" way of playing made him stand out and must have been extremely effective because within 10 years every D-man in the league was playing that way and every kid under 18 was being trained to play that way and have been ever since.

If he wasn't successful and wasn't dominating, those changes wouldn't have been implemented and copied as quickly as it was.

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11-20-2012, 05:11 AM
  #398
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I think it's pretty clear that Harvey's "new" way of playing made him stand out and must have been extremely effective because within 10 years every D-man in the league was playing that way and every kid under 18 was being trained to play that way and have been ever since.

If he wasn't successful and wasn't dominating, those changes wouldn't have been implemented and copied as quickly as it was.
Harvey deserves credit for his way of playing - just not because the way was new but rather because it helped to score goals/prevent goals against. Full points for dominating (whether by traditional or innovative means), but no extra points for being innovative.

But maybe that's a sophistical approach in your eyes.

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11-20-2012, 05:51 AM
  #399
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US Rinks

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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Man, that's crazy. Easier to find summer ice in Raleigh than Halifax... my mind is blown.
Most US hockey facilities are privately owned, serving a niche market. So they concentrate on hockey, figure skating, public skating year round.

Well into the 1970s, indoor rinks in Canada were owned and operated by municipalities that in the off season served as multi-purpose community centers.

The private hockey facilities in Canada started making inroads in the 1980s, then gradually expanded in the nineties, making inroads in the minor urban centers in the last ten years.

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11-20-2012, 08:30 AM
  #400
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
See this post. Even with none of the dilution, Orr was scoring at a pace nearly double the next best. Never mind the eyeball test, how he simply blew past defenders unlike anyone else in... history?

He was simply a phenomenon, era doesn't account for it.



True, but Wayne also dominated the period that we are agreeing was the most talent-flush period in NHL history as a 30+ year old. And again, the eyball test shows he was playing the game at a level that at times was simply astonishing. He operated at a level rarely seen in any sport, and I'll leave it at that.



Gretzky was just as capable of playing defense as guys like Backstrom and Savard who have managed to thrive in the current NHL. I don't see what the problem would be.



Again, I don't see why Mario would be considered anything worse than a much, much, much better version of Getzlaf or Eric Staal.



So they would score 150 points instead of 200? I'm just not buying this line of argument at all. We're talking about players who didn't just score a lot of points, they created goals out of the clear blue in a manner not seen before or since. And you are going to shackle this guy to his own goalpost so he "only" scores at a level that blows everyone away and not at a level that makes a mockery of the league?

edit: A last thought on the Datsyuk/Mario thing... Datsyuk was 24 and had played nearly 150 games in the NHL when a 37-year-old Mario scored nearly 1.4 PPG, coming in second behind Forsberg. Datsyuk was 27 when a geriatric Mario finally retired after a 22-in-26 partial season. How far can this "players don't play like that anymore" really stretch?
This is simply not true.

Unless by capable you mean could have but rarely bothered to.

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