I wasn't around to watch hockey back in the day but how many NHL goals could Bobby Hull have got had he stayed in the NHL? Was looking at his stats and he still kept scoring at a pretty good pace in the WHA so how would those stats translate to NHL?
I know nothing of that league from back then. Thanks to any who reply.
I have no idea on how to come to an exact number. I think most will say he would have scored fewer goals in the NHL than he did in the WHA, but to what degree?
Just playing with the numbers, if he would have scored 2/3 as many goals in the NHL as he did in the WHA he would have ended up with 812 goals, and been only the 3rd player to break the 750 goal mark. 812 passes Gordie's Howe's NHL total, but Howe played in the WHA too, so if we give him the same treatment Hull ends up 3rd all time.
You are one bitter Blues fan, huh? Not acknowledging Yzerman or Lidstrom?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider
Although it's factually correct that Barry outscored Morenz during the eight years where their careers overlapped, this is highly misleading for several reasons:
- This eight year comparison includes virtually all of Barry's offensive prime (he was a top ten scorer just once for the remainder of his career) while it excludes the majority of Morenz's prime (five out of the seven times that "l'homme eclair" finished in the top five in scoring fall outside your period of comparison).
- During the first six seasons where their careers overlapped (1930 to 1935), Morenz convincingly outscored Barry 240-218 while playing fewer games - and again, this excludes the majority of Morenz's best seasons. Barry was only able to catch up due to Morenz slowing down in 1936 and 1937 due to age (he also missed around a quarter of the 1937 season due to his career-ending, and some believe life-ending, leg injury).
- Barry never won the Hart and placed in the top five once (5th in 1937). Morenz won the Hart three times (1928, 1931, 1932) and was also runner-up in 1925.
- Morenz was routinely considered one of the great players of the first half of the 20th century (along with Shore, Nighbor, Taylor, etc). Barry was never anywhere close.
This is almost like comparing Tony Amonte to Steve Yzerman from 1996 to 2004 and concluding that Yzerman is "highly overrated" because Yzerman is considered an "all-time great" while Amonte is "just another dead puck era player" (and Amonte does in fact outscore Yzerman during this carefully-selected period which includes Amonte's offensive prime but excludes Yzerman's).
Marty Barry was better at being a Red Wing than Howie Morenz, though.
Yes, now refute my point about their scoring totals.
Even career, Morenz is only slightly ahead.
Morenz 271-201-471 in 550 (40-30-70 per 82)
Barry 195-192-387 in 509 (31-30-61 per 82)
Is that the difference between an average first line center and one of the top five or ten centers of all-time?
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Originally Posted by shazariahl
As for giving up so many points while on the ice, this is a combination of highscorjng era on a team ghat didn't play much defense and playing on the first unit pk most his career. According to your method, Gretzky would have been better defensively if he hadnt killed penalties.
Getting scored against while shorthanded does not affect your plus-minus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil
Stevens is considered one of the best defensive defensemen of all-time and playyed the bulk of his career on a defensive team and he's #5. So take a list like this with a grain of salt.
Stevens wasn't a defensive defenseman until the mid-90s. He used to be a faster, meaner version of Kevin Hatcher. Dion Phaneuf came into the league playing Stevens' early-career style. Stevens also played a lot of minutes for a fairly thin Washington team in the 80s. The problem with Stevens is that he had two separate careers and people like to take his defensive excellence from New Jersey, and overlay it on top of his Washington offense, and then suggest that he was that good every year.
You are one bitter Blues fan, huh? Not acknowledging Yzerman or Lidstrom?
Yes, now refute my point about their scoring totals.
Even career, Morenz is only slightly ahead.
Morenz 271-201-471 in 550 (40-30-70 per 82)
Barry 195-192-387 in 509 (31-30-61 per 82)
Is that the difference between an average first line center and one of the top five or ten centers of all-time?
The league was much higher scoring on average when Barry played than when Morenz played. That should be obvious by looking at how much higher Morenz ranked on a year-by-year basis.
And nobody thinks Barry was an "average first line center," the man was an easy choice as a Hall of Famer, for crying out loud.
Quote:
Stevens wasn't a defensive defenseman until the mid-90s. He used to be a faster, meaner version of Kevin Hatcher. Dion Phaneuf came into the league playing Stevens' early-career style. Stevens also played a lot of minutes for a fairly thin Washington team in the 80s. The problem with Stevens is that he had two separate careers and people like to take his defensive excellence from New Jersey, and overlay it on top of his Washington offense, and then suggest that he was that good every year.
Stevens was great two-ways for a couple of years in the mid 90s, at least 1992-93 and 1993-94. Edit: Not sure why we are talking about him though; he's definitely not a top 10 player of all time.
Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 11-15-2012 at 02:05 PM.
Alot of those older players should get more recognition upon looking back. Taking into account the shorter seasons compared to today alot of those single season totals are quite impressive.
- 3 Hart wins and one runner-up
- 1 Retro Conn Smythe
- AS Record: 4 1st Team, 2 2nd Team (includes both Official and Unofficial teams since there were no AS Teams for part of his career)
- 2 Art Ross, 5x Top 3 in points, 7x Top 5, 10x Top 10
Who doesn't that stack up to?
Looks impressive on the surface but it's in a 6-9 team league as well.
I just think other centers have stronger arguments and will make my case in the top centers project.
Once again I will say that I think it's really difficult and perhaps unfair to compare players from such different eras like the 20's and say the post expansion era (especially a fully integrated post 92ish league).
I'm not even entirely sold that Morenz was better than Taylor.
Alot of those older players should get more recognition upon looking back. Taking into account the shorter seasons compared to today alot of those single season totals are quite impressive.
context is important though.
Take 24-25 Montreal Canadians where Morenz , Joliat, Boucher score 75 of the teams 93 goals for.
Around 10 guys dress for the game and Dman scoring is different as well.
So context matters. It's hard to compare those rates to todays players.
Getting scored against while shorthanded does not affect your plus-minus.
We weren't talking plus/minus. The comment was that Gretzky was on the ice for more goals against than any player in history - that IS affected by short handed goals when you're on the 1st PK unit.
My point was that using goals against was a stupid measurement - it punishes him for playing a long career in a high-scoring era and playing on the PK unit.
edit: My mistake, there was +/- talk in there as well, but what I was referring to was his comment about Gretzky being on ice for more goals against than any other player. As someone else mentioned, a lot of great players with long careers are on that list, including Bourque and Lidstrom. I hope no one is going to use this stat to measure them defensively.
Last edited by shazariahl: 11-15-2012 at 10:34 PM.
In the Hockey News they were asking several experts who were the Best Canadian players of all time. Especially their Top 5.
In that line of thought, I would like to ask the HF boards posters who was in your opinion the Ten Best players in Hockey History(including the Soviets)?
Top 10 since the mid 90s (excluding Gretzky/Lemieux/Bourque since they retired though if I had to include them then they'd make this top 10). This would obviously look different if it was since the early 90s because then Roy would be ahead of Brodeur imo, Yzerman would be ahead of Hasek/Forsberg, etc. But based on what they did since I started watching hockey...
Lidstrom
Jagr
Sakic
Brodeur
Roy
Hasek
Forsberg
Yzerman
Niedermayer
Selanne
It's funny with Beliveau, I never saw him play and you look at his numbers and they're outstanding but they don't seem to quite match his reverence.
That being said I had to include him in my top 10. The way I see it they practically tried to make him emperor of Canada, he had to be doing something right. He's a companion of the Order of Canada, which if I'm reading this right is the highest order of the highest order, and I know he was offered the position of Governor General. I could only imagine like Mike Modano or someone like that being US President.
It's not hipster at all. Gretzky had holes in his game.
His strengths were so brutally outstanding that they'd propel him to anyone's top 3, but Orr was easily a more well-rounded player.
It's not just about being a more well-rounded player in my case, I think the difference between Orr and Lemieux over the other players on the ice was greater than Wayne had with the other players. Oh he had the big numbers but i'm saying what you see when you watch a game. Orr and Mario were playing with inferior players to them, they were like in a league of their own.
It's not just about being a more well-rounded player in my case, I think the difference between Orr and Lemieux over the other players on the ice was greater than Wayne had with the other players. Oh he had the big numbers but i'm saying what you see when you watch a game. Orr and Mario were playing with inferior players to them, they were like in a league of their own.
I see where you're coming from with that point, especially with Orr.
Mario certainly had this air of dominance that Gretzky didn't quite have. Of course Gretzky put up spaceman numbers. And then there's Howe who I believe had more influence on future players than any other player. Those 3 spots were very close between the 3 of them.
Now Orr was just not of the same cloth as mortal men. I never saw him live but I've watched quite a bit of his old stuff and hes just constantly making everyone else on the ice look stupid in all 3 zones. It's always about offense, offense, offense, when people talk about Orr and I see why but the thing is he was that good both ways. He would absolutely shut you down in his own end. I remember watching him kill a penalty by skating around with the puck for a minute and a half. Nobody could take it away, his skating and puck handling were too good. After that, there was no longer an argument for #1 in my eyes. And people talk about Gretzky's hockey IQ but Orr read the game just as well.
I've watched him make interceptions that would put football safeties to shame.
It's funny with Beliveau, I never saw him play and you look at his numbers and they're outstanding but they don't seem to quite match his reverence.
That being said I had to include him in my top 10. The way I see it they practically tried to make him emperor of Canada, he had to be doing something right.
Same could be said about the Rocket. It's what they meant to the game at the time they appeared in. Dickie Moore for instance a fellow Habs players who had more scoring titles than both of them was seen as greatly inferior to them. Also Beliveau could have joined the NHL years before but was happy playing in lower leagues. It took a huge financial commitement from the Habs for him to leave the Quebec Aces.
That being said, I think from the 50s to 60s, Beliveau was only surpassed by Gordie Howe as far as points. Players come and go but Howe and Beliveau kept maintaining themselves in the Top 5 in the league during that period, year in, year out.
