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Old
11-19-2012, 06:21 PM
  #126
PayItForward
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Originally Posted by Oilin Toronto View Post
Here's 30 D's based on stats alone.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...ewName=summary
Your judging a d-man just on the stats they put up? So you think that Dennis Wideman is a better d-man? Gonchar? Bieksa? Leddy?

Ryan McDonagh is 35th on that list. I can tell you from watching him all season, he's a lot higher in terms how good he was last year (and how good I think he will be in the future).

There's a lot more to a d-man than the points they put up. He impressed me a lot than Yandle last year (and that's not including the playoffs).

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Old
11-19-2012, 06:21 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Trying to judge a defenseman strictly by stats is a horribly flawed approach.
You're right...you are doing the player an injustice, especially if they're D's. However, forwards are judged on production...and based on production, talent, and potetial, Ebs proved last year that he deserves to be mentioned with the top wingers in the game.

That cannot be said for OEL on any circumstances. There are D's that have had fewer pts, such as McDonagh, Erhoff, Girardi, Boghosian, Kulikov and E. Johnson to name a few, that i would take over OEL today even though they have fewer pts.

IMO he's not in the top 25. Stats or no stats!!!

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11-19-2012, 06:27 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Oilin Toronto View Post
You're right...you are doing the player an injustice, especially if they're D's. However, forwards are judged on production...and based on production, talent, and potetial, Ebs proved last year that he deserves to be mentioned with the top wingers in the game.

That cannot be said for OEL on any circumstances. There are D's that have had fewer pts, such as McDonagh, Erhoff, Girardi, Boghosian, Kulikov and E. Johnson to name a few, that i would take over OEL today even though they have fewer pts.

IMO he's not in the top 25. Stats or no stats!!!
I didn't even mention Hedman, Larsson and Myers. I'd take any one of those over OEL.

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Old
11-19-2012, 06:41 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Oilin Toronto View Post
I didn't even mention Hedman, Larsson and Myers. I'd take any one of those over OEL.
Yep, 9 defensemen you like better prove he's not in the top 25.

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Old
11-19-2012, 07:57 PM
  #130
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Gormley has just as much hype around him as OEL within the Phoenix organization. He 'made' the roster straight from the draft, no small feat, but the Coyotes can afford to stash him away for awhile. No need to rush him. He is one of the best D prospects (guys who have never played an NHL game) out there right now. It wouldn't make sense for Edmonton to trade for him, given that they'd have to give up a proven asset when Gormley hasn't played an NHL game yet.
.
OTOH, Yakupov is a highly hyped player that hasn't played an NHL game yet either. Gormley might be the stabilizing partner for J Schultz.
Prospect for prospect.

Both teams possibly fill a need without giving up a roster player.

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Old
11-19-2012, 08:13 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Oilin Toronto View Post
You're right...you are doing the player an injustice, especially if they're D's. However, forwards are judged on production...and based on production, talent, and potetial, Ebs proved last year that he deserves to be mentioned with the top wingers in the game.

That cannot be said for OEL on any circumstances. There are D's that have had fewer pts, such as McDonagh, Erhoff, Girardi, Boghosian, Kulikov and E. Johnson to name a few, that i would take over OEL today even though they have fewer pts.

IMO he's not in the top 25. Stats or no stats!!!
OEL proved last year in the playoffs, where it really matters, that he should be mentioned with the top D-men in the league. Forwards are not just judged by production, not in today's game, and obviously you don't understand talent evaluation or you have not seen OEL play.

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Old
11-19-2012, 08:16 PM
  #132
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^ does it have to he either or?

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Old
11-19-2012, 08:25 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by 7even View Post
Yep, 9 defensemen you like better prove he's not in the top 25.
25 players that are arguably (keyword arguably) equal to or better than OEL, in no particular order:

Chara
Weber
Suter
Karlsson
Doughty
Pietrangelo
Letang
Girardi
Keith
Edler
Pronger (I know, he's injured, but he's not retired yet)
Seabrook
Yandle
Subban
Enstrom
Myers
Hedman
Ehrhoff
MDZ
Burns
Green
Boyle
Carlson
Timonen
E. Johnson
Larsson

I probably missed some obvious ones there too, and I stopped after about 3 minutes looking at NHL.com. Not saying that these players ARE better than OEL, just that you could make an argument for any of them.

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Old
11-19-2012, 08:26 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by 7even View Post
Yep, 9 defensemen you like better prove he's not in the top 25.
OEL will probably break into the top 25 dmen very soon but he's not there yet...
Eberle is a top 10 winger in his position right now.

Not in any order, I believe these are 25 better defenseman who have proven themselves.
1. Chara
2. Weber
3. Karlsson
4. Pietrangelo
5. Doughty
6. Myers
7. Boyle
8. Streit
9. Mcdonagh
10. Hamhuis
11. Byfuglien
12. Suter
13. Edler
14. Campbell
15. Keith
16. Seabrook
17. Letang
18. Burns
19. Enstrom
20. Pronger
21. Ehrhoff
22. Staal
23. Subban
24. Timonen
25. Kronwall

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Old
11-19-2012, 09:19 PM
  #135
Oilin Toronto
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Originally Posted by 7even View Post
Yep, 9 defensemen you like better prove he's not in the top 25.
I don't know how many ways I can prove it to you. I disregarded the 32 D's that had more points than OEL, and gave you 9 more D's that have fewer pts that I think are better than OEL.

How many different ways more can I prove it to you.

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Old
11-19-2012, 09:23 PM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenomenon13 View Post
OEL will probably break into the top 25 dmen very soon but he's not there yet...
Eberle is a top 10 winger in his position right now.

Not in any order, I believe these are 25 better defenseman who have proven themselves.
1. Chara
2. Weber
3. Karlsson
4. Pietrangelo
5. Doughty
6. Myers
7. Boyle
8. Streit
9. Mcdonagh
10. Hamhuis
11. Byfuglien
12. Suter
13. Edler
14. Campbell
15. Keith
16. Seabrook
17. Letang
18. Burns
19. Enstrom
20. Pronger
21. Ehrhoff
22. Staal
23. Subban
24. Timonen
25. Kronwall
Eberle makes me uneasy with his insane 19% shooting %. No one has managed to maintain a SH% that high since the lockout. I'd be hesitant to call him a top 10 right winger.

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Old
11-19-2012, 09:26 PM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burf View Post
25 players that are arguably (keyword arguably) equal to or better than OEL, in no particular order:

Chara
Weber
Suter
Karlsson
Doughty
Pietrangelo
Letang
Girardi
Keith
Edler
Pronger (I know, he's injured, but he's not retired yet)
Seabrook
Yandle
Subban
Enstrom
Myers
Hedman
Ehrhoff
MDZ
Burns
Green
Boyle
Carlson
Timonen
E. Johnson
Larsson

I probably missed some obvious ones there too, and I stopped after about 3 minutes looking at NHL.com. Not saying that these players ARE better than OEL, just that you could make an argument for any of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilin Toronto View Post
I don't know how many ways I can prove it to you. I disregarded the 32 D's that had more points than OEL, and gave you 9 more D's that have fewer pts that I think are better than OEL.

How many different ways more can I prove it to you.
My mistake gentlemen, sometimes I mix "top 25" and "very likely top 25 in the future" up

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Old
11-19-2012, 09:38 PM
  #138
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In what world is Adam Larsson "arguably" better(or even as good) as OEL? I think a name like that would put in question the rest of your list, because if you think Larsson is arguably in the same neighborhood as OEL at this stage, you're seriously underrating OEL. Larsson may get there some day, but he is absolutely not there right now. Not even close.

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Old
11-19-2012, 09:45 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
In what world is Adam Larsson "arguably" better(or even as good) as OEL? I think a name like that would put in question the rest of your list, because if you think Larsson is arguably in the same neighborhood as OEL at this stage, you're seriously underrating OEL. Larsson may get there some day, but he is absolutely not there right now. Not even close.
How would one guy put into question the entire list...when it can be argued that Larsson, as a rookie, had just as good a year. He performed extremely well in the playoffs as well.

I'd be curious to run a poll to see who readers would chose between the 2 D's. I think you might be way overvaluing OEL. It's not as far a gap as you might think.

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Old
11-19-2012, 09:49 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Oilin Toronto View Post
How would one guy put into question the entire list...when it can be argued that Larsson, as a rookie, had just as good a year. He performed extremely well in the playoffs as well.

I'd be curious to run a poll to see who readers would chose between the 2 D's. I think you might be way overvaluing OEL. It's not as far a gap as you might think.
Please do. Ask who is the better defenseman right now. I have zero doubt what the results would be. The only argument for Adam Larsson over OEL is long-term potential, because he's clearly a level below OEL right now. Probably more than a level. I'd be surprised if even New Jersey fans didn't see it that way.

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11-19-2012, 10:01 PM
  #141
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Please do. Ask who is the better defenseman right now. I have zero doubt what the results would be. The only argument for Adam Larsson over OEL is long-term potential, because he's clearly a level below OEL right now. Probably more than a level. I'd be surprised if even New Jersey fans didn't see it that way.
This whole conversation is geared towards who is better now, and who has the potential to be better in the future. If you are counting solely on last years performance, one could argue that OEL isn't even in the top 30 D's. I think much of OEL's appeal is his "potential", and not what we are seeing now.

Going back to the thread, any way you slice it, Eberle has proven that he is an elite winger, worthy of a top 10 status RIGHT NOW. As a result, I would not trade Ebs for OEL right now!!!!

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11-19-2012, 10:06 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Oilin Toronto View Post
This whole conversation is geared towards who is better now, and who has the potential to be better in the future. If you are counting solely on last years performance, one could argue that OEL isn't even in the top 30 D's. I think much of OEL's appeal is his "potential", and not what we are seeing now.

Going back to the thread, any way you slice it, Eberle has proven that he is an elite winger, worthy of a top 10 status RIGHT NOW. As a result, I would not trade Ebs for OEL right now!!!!
I responded to a list that stated...

Quote:
25 players that are arguably (keyword arguably) equal to or better than OEL, in no particular order:
and pointed out that a name like Larsson does not belong on that list. I don't see how you can make any argument for Adam Larsson above OEL right now. Sure, potential factors into this, but OEL is still one of the most highly touted young defensemen in the league. It's not like he's an average prospect who is surprising.

I'd also disagree that Eberle has proven himself an elite top 10 winger. We're talking about 2 seasons here, and he clearly had some help in putting up those numbers. With a shooting percentage that is unsustainable, and soft minutes, how much room for growth is there actually in those numbers?

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11-19-2012, 10:36 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
I responded to a list that stated...



and pointed out that a name like Larsson does not belong on that list. I don't see how you can make any argument for Adam Larsson above OEL right now. Sure, potential factors into this, but OEL is still one of the most highly touted young defensemen in the league. It's not like he's an average prospect who is surprising.

I'd also disagree that Eberle has proven himself an elite top 10 winger. We're talking about 2 seasons here, and he clearly had some help in putting up those numbers. With a shooting percentage that is unsustainable, and soft minutes, how much room for growth is there actually in those numbers?
Your argument that Eberle has not proven himself as a top 10 winger is very flawed.

I'm assuming the help that you are talking about happens to be Hall and RNH, none of which played more than 62 games. it should also be noted that RNH and Eberle did not play on the same line for much of the year. I guess you are telling me that the help happens to be Gagner (RIGGHTT). I should also state that Ebs really picked up his game when Hall and RNH were on the mend. He was Edmonton's only offensive threat. He would consistently be going against the opposing team's top pairing D.

It's also important for you to know that Eberle had the 2nd best pts per TOI as a winger. Clearly, his stats last year showed us that he is one of the top wingers in the game. His numbers don't lie.

What's funny is that you're argument is based solely on speculation. As a pure sniper, having proved over and over again that he has sick hands, how can you say, without hesitation, that he cannot sustain his shooting percentage. Perhaps, with more playing time, better teammates, and more experience, one could make an argument that he can consistently be in the 80-90pt range.

Conversely, can you give me one stat of OEL to show me that he is a top 30 D in this league?

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11-19-2012, 11:47 PM
  #144
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Conversely, can you give me one stat of OEL to show me that he is a top 30 D in this league?
Goals?

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Old
11-20-2012, 12:08 AM
  #145
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Goals?
Excellent...you found one. I guess he is a top 30 D. I stand corrected!!!!

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11-20-2012, 12:15 AM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Oilin Toronto View Post
I didn't even mention Hedman, Larsson and Myers. I'd take any one of those over OEL.
You like Erhoff, Kulikov, Girardi, and Bogosian better? Seriously? If I were in charge of the Blues I would give up quite a bit to get OEL. He is a fantastic player. Best player for the Yotes in the playoffs for sure. You don't trade players like that. He's going to be the Pietrangelo of the Coyotes.

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Old
11-20-2012, 12:16 AM
  #147
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Excellent...you found one. I guess he is a top 30 D. I stand corrected!!!!
Who judges the top 30 D by just stats?

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Old
11-20-2012, 12:17 AM
  #148
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How about most effective defenseman on the league's fifth most effective defense? Maybe leading his team in ice time (5on5, PK, and PP) in the playoffs? How about being 20 years old the whole time? You like numbers, right? There are some numbers for you.

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Old
11-20-2012, 12:27 AM
  #149
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I'm sad that this turned into a bash/defend OEL thread. He really is a great young player that any team would be lucky to have. I'm not sure what his value is compared to Eberle but I know it's close and that should be considered high, high praise for both young men.

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11-20-2012, 12:32 AM
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7even View Post
Eberle makes me uneasy with his insane 19% shooting %. No one has managed to maintain a SH% that high since the lockout. I'd be hesitant to call him a top 10 right winger.
Eberle's high shooting percentage cannot be taken as a bad thing for the argument. He only shoots when he has a chance to score unlike people like Ovi who throw everything on net and hope something sneaks through.


Based on nothing more than watching basically every game the 2 played last year, I take OEL all day... And I'm a huge fan of Ebs

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