I see where you're coming from with that point, especially with Orr.
Mario certainly had this air of dominance that Gretzky didn't quite have. Of course Gretzky put up spaceman numbers. And then there's Howe who I believe had more influence on future players than any other player. Those 3 spots were very close between the 3 of them.
Now Orr was just not of the same cloth as mortal men. I never saw him live but I've watched quite a bit of his old stuff and hes just constantly making everyone else on the ice look stupid in all 3 zones. It's always about offense, offense, offense, when people talk about Orr and I see why but the thing is he was that good both ways. He would absolutely shut you down in his own end. I remember watching him kill a penalty by skating around with the puck for a minute and a half. Nobody could take it away, his skating and puck handling were too good. After that, there was no longer an argument for #1 in my eyes. And people talk about Gretzky's hockey IQ but Orr read the game just as well.
I've watched him make interceptions that would put football safeties to shame.
It's pretty simple, Orr was great on pretty much every aspect of the game because he could be on many place on the ice at same time. He was like someone from another time, coming down to have fun with the neanderthals below.
It's not hipster at all. Gretzky had holes in his game.
His strengths were so brutally outstanding that they'd propel him to anyone's top 3, but Orr was easily a more well-rounded player.
I don't think too many people would fault someone for having Orr over Gretzky, but how do you end up with Orr AND Mario over Gretzky? Mario had bigger holes in his game, so that can't be it.
I don't think too many people would fault someone for having Orr over Gretzky, but how do you end up with Orr AND Mario over Gretzky? Mario had bigger holes in his game, so that can't be it.
It's not about who is more complete. To me Mario was more dominant the moment he stepped foot on the ice. I've seen too many games where Wayne was like one of the other players and the night would end and he would have 3 points. Oh he had great vision and was creative but he had to work at it. While Mario was more visibly superior to everybody else and he was more naturaly gifted.
1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Bobby Orr
3. Mario Lemieux
4. Gordie Howe
5. Bobby Hull
6. Jean Beliveau
7. Doug Harvey
8. Maurice Richard
9. Ray Bourque
10. Dominik Hasek
Wow... Just wow. Not to try and belittle anyones opinion, but if Gretzky isn't #1, it's hard to take your list seriously
There are many, many people who think that Orr is the best of all-time, and that Lemieux, had he not suffered so many illnesses and injuries throughout the course of his career, would have had greater statistical peaks than Gretzky. You can certainly make a great case for Wayne at #1, but by no means is that the consensus.
I'm way too old to be a hipster. I've seen Orr play and he was the best player i've ever seen bar none. Just another level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinehead
It's not hipster at all. Gretzky had holes in his game.
His strengths were so brutally outstanding that they'd propel him to anyone's top 3, but Orr was easily a more well-rounded player.
So I take you don't value longevity at all? Or how about sheer and utter dominance?
4 Stanley Cups, 9 Harts, 5 Lester B. Pearsons, 2 Conn Smythes, 10 Art Rosses.. He has more assists than any other player has points. No other player crossed the 200pt mark, Gretzky did it not once but four times.
He holds the record for:
-Most points in a season
-Most goals in a season
-Most points in a playoff run
-Most assists in a playoff run
If we were comparing Orr to practically any other player, I'd concede, he had an outstanding all-around game and truly revolutionized the role of a defenseman. However, Wayne Gretzky did so much more than that. He revolutionized the game of hockey to an entirely new market. He was so dominant and spectacular to watch that he single-handedly drew interest from markets who were never considered viable hockey markets in the past.
Gretzky did it all as an NHL player, he literally accomplished every feat there is in the game of professional hockey. People love to sensationalize the prototype of a big, physical, smooth-skating, player with soft hands, and out-of this world vision and then they see a player like Mario Lemieux who was able to make a spectacle out of every game. What they fail to realize is that Gretzky was the Albert Einstein of hockey. He was literally a genius. He played one of the -- if not the most physical sports in the world, and he was literally able to practically avoid physical contact altogether. He didn't need to out-skate players, or out-muscle them, he had unprecedented (to this day) vision and foresight that allowed him move the puck around the opposition or feed his linemates impossible passes game-in, game-out. One must appreciate the sheer simplicity in Gretzky's game and understand how effective and undefendable he was as a result of it, to truly value how special of a player Gretzky was.
My list by the way:
1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Bobby Orr
3. Mario Lemieux
4. Gordie Howe
5. Jean Beliveau
6. Dominik Hasek
7. Eddie Shore
8. Patrick Roy
9. Raymond Bourque
10. Guy Lafleur
Note: 5-10 largely interchangeable.
Question: Am I only the one who doesn't get all the hype with Maurice Richard? Great goal scorer, for sure. But the man was constantly injured, below PPG in both regular season and playoffs.. There's no way he's in my top 10, let alone top 5 linke some of you guys over some of the better players who played since Richard's time.
I see where you're coming from with that point, especially with Orr.
Mario certainly had this air of dominance that Gretzky didn't quite have. Of course Gretzky put up spaceman numbers. And then there's Howe who I believe had more influence on future players than any other player. Those 3 spots were very close between the 3 of them.
Now Orr was just not of the same cloth as mortal men. I never saw him live but I've watched quite a bit of his old stuff and hes just constantly making everyone else on the ice look stupid in all 3 zones. It's always about offense, offense, offense, when people talk about Orr and I see why but the thing is he was that good both ways. He would absolutely shut you down in his own end. I remember watching him kill a penalty by skating around with the puck for a minute and a half. Nobody could take it away, his skating and puck handling were too good. After that, there was no longer an argument for #1 in my eyes. And people talk about Gretzky's hockey IQ but Orr read the game just as well.
I've watched him make interceptions that would put football safeties to shame.
Yes, true, Mario's air of dominance was about 48 official records (and a plethora of various MVP Trophies) short of Gretzky's air of dominance, so I agree with you.
People just didn't (and still don't) get Gretzky's game. It wasn't a one on one game. Hockey shouldn't be played one on one. The entire purpose is to out man the other team - whether it be defensively or offensively. Gretzky two on one'd the opposition better than anyone in history.
My list by the way:
1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Bobby Orr
3. Mario Lemieux
4. Gordie Howe
5. Jean Beliveau
6. Dominik Hasek
7. Eddie Shore
8. Patrick Roy
9. Raymond Bourque
10. Guy Lafleur
Note: 5-10 largely interchangeable.
Question: Am I only the one who doesn't get all the hype with Maurice Richard? Great goal scorer, for sure. But the man was constantly injured, below PPG in both regular season and playoffs.. There's no way he's in my top 10, let alone top 5 linke some of you guys over some of the better players who played since Richard's time.
Saying he was under PPG just ignores the scoring levels of the era he played in. He was the dominant goal-scorer in the playoffs during his time by a healthy margin.
Claiming Lafleur is better offensively for example, just doesn't really make sense when you look at their top 5 or top 10 placements, even if one was over PPG and the other wasn't.
So I take you don't value longevity at all? Or how about sheer and utter dominance?
4 Stanley Cups, 9 Harts, 5 Lester B. Pearsons, 2 Conn Smythes, 10 Art Rosses.. He has more assists than any other player has points. No other player crossed the 200pt mark, Gretzky did it not once but four times.
He holds the record for:
-Most points in a season
-Most goals in a season
-Most points in a playoff run
-Most assists in a playoff run
If we were comparing Orr to practically any other player, I'd concede, he had an outstanding all-around game and truly revolutionized the role of a defenseman. However, Wayne Gretzky did so much more than that. He revolutionized the game of hockey to an entirely new market. He was so dominant and spectacular to watch that he single-handedly drew interest from markets who were never considered viable hockey markets in the past.
Here's the thing, Bobby and Mario were more dominant and i'm not just talking about numbers. I've put Richard at number 5 but there were guys that were getting far more point than him. And sure Wayne drew interest in places that were not interested in hockey but that's because he was traded to LA.
Quote:
Gretzky did it all as an NHL player, he literally accomplished every feat there is in the game of professional hockey.
He sure did, the numbers are there.
Quote:
People love to sensationalize the prototype of a big, physical, smooth-skating, player with soft hands, and out-of this world vision and then they see a player like Mario Lemieux who was able to make a spectacle out of every game. What they fail to realize is that Gretzky was the Albert Einstein of hockey. He was literally a genius. He played one of the -- if not the most physical sports in the world, and he was literally able to practically avoid physical contact altogether. He didn't need to out-skate players, or out-muscle them, he had unprecedented (to this day) vision and foresight that allowed him move the puck around the opposition or feed his linemates impossible passes game-in, game-out. One must appreciate the sheer simplicity in Gretzky's game and understand how effective and undefendable he was as a result of it, to truly value how special of a player Gretzky was.
Gretzky was great, no question about it. But it's like you devalue Mario because Wayne seemed more cerebral and Mario was more natural at doing things? Both have merit, it's just a matter of how we view things. While doing specatular plays and getting a lot of points, on most nights Wayne seemed just like another player, he was more invisible while Mario the moment he stepped foot on the ice, he was a superior player. Quicker, stronger, with a great vision. But I don't necesseraly disagree with your take.
There are many, many people who think that Orr is the best of all-time, and that Lemieux, had he not suffered so many illnesses and injuries throughout the course of his career, would have had greater statistical peaks than Gretzky. You can certainly make a great case for Wayne at #1, but by no means is that the consensus.
If what you are saying is true, then how is it that Gretzky was able to maintain a higher PPG average over around 600 more games played (keeping in mind it is much easier to maintain a high PPG average over fewer games)? How is it that Gretzky owns the two highest PPG averages over a course of a season? Shouldn't Mario have at least had one of those? And how is it that Gretzky has the two highest goal scoring seasons of all time, and Brett Hull of all people even beat Mario in that category? Shouldn't Mario be higher than the 4th best goal scoring season of all time? And how is it that Mario's best assist season ever is tied for Gretzky's 8th worst? If it's about peak, then why can't Mario hold a candle to Gretzky in any seasonal category? People say that Mario's 160 points in 60 games in 1993 was better than anything Wayne ever did. Well then how is it that Gretzky scored 175 points in 60 games in 83-84? The best peak of all time was Gretzky 153 points in 51 (consecutive) games in 83-84. Before his injury, he was on pace for 240 points in only 80 games (that's exactly 3 PPG...totally ridiculous). Mario never had a peak like that, even when he was healthy.
My list by the way:
1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Bobby Orr
3. Mario Lemieux
4. Gordie Howe
5. Jean Beliveau
6. Dominik Hasek
7. Eddie Shore
8. Patrick Roy
9. Raymond Bourque
10. Guy Lafleur
Note: 5-10 largely interchangeable.
Question: Am I only the one who doesn't get all the hype with Maurice Richard? Great goal scorer, for sure. But the man was constantly injured, below PPG in both regular season and playoffs.. There's no way he's in my top 10, let alone top 5 linke some of you guys over some of the better players who played since Richard's time.
Richard was something special and he should be there for a variety of reasons. When he came to the league in the 1940s, he singlehandly saved it from instinction. Also his 50 goals in 50 games was unheard of at the time and it took Mike Bossy in the 80s to match it. In my opinion the Rocket represents the most the fighting spirit of the sport, there never has there been a player who had more desire to win, with a killer instinct making him score so many important playoff goals. The guy never gave up and his grit was only matched by his speed and scoring ability. Not to mention the brawls and the famous riot in Montreal. The image of the Rocket is a guy rushing to the goal with two men on his back and putting one in the net by shear force of will. I don't think there will ever be another like him.
I do not think anyone could argue that Gretzky didn't have the greatest hockey career of all time. It is stupid to do so, the records speak for themselves.
By the same token, I do not think that it feasible to put him below #3 overall, and even putting Lemieux ahead of him would take a decent amount of convincing.
That being said, putting Bobby Orr at number one is not something that should be laughed at. My father has seen tons of hockey, and he puts Orr above all the rest, and this is coming from a Montrealer who moved to the west later in his life.
I look at Orr's numbers, I look at Gretzky's numbers. I then take a look at youtube vids, documentaries, etc. Gretzky was otherwordly in many regards, and the same can be said about Orr.
I myself would place Orr a bit ahead at number one in terms of who I feel is the better player, and there are a couple of reasons why. Firstly, he dominated the ice from top to bottom unlike anyone I've ever seen. His skill set, combined with his IQ, toughness and vision, made him the best D-man there ever was by quite a bit. He elevated the play of his teammates offensively, while also providing defense at a franchise level. I do not think we will ever see something like that again. Same for Gretzky, but to a slightly lesser degree.
Here's my final note: about longevity. I have seen this used as an argument against Orr, and I want to address this.This is something that comes to personal opinion, but as far as I'm concerned, Orr played enough games for me to be comfortable with placing him at no. 1. Speaking personally, longevity is crucial when analyzing a player's career, but when it comes down to judging how good a player was at hockey, I go strictly by a player's on-ice performance. What happened to Orr was unfortunate, especially with the knee-on-knee situation with Pronovost. I will not dock points off when he showed, in my mind, what he could do over enough games to justify his position.
With all that being said, here is my top 10. For context, this is based off first hand accounts from documentaries, my views on their play with what footage I have seen, and of course, my father's input, whose experiences from watching several decades of hockey is important to me. Some of the later picks are interchangeable:
1. Bobby Orr
2. Wayne Gretzky
3. Mario Lemieux
4. Gordie Howe
5. Jean Beliveau
6. Bobby Hull
7. Eddie Shore
8. Maurice Richard
9. Doug Harvey
10. Raymond Bourque
I would also like to give some shout outs to those who I've been able to see in my own lifetime, and who I would consider for my personal top 10: Sidney Crosby, Joe Sakic, Nicklas Lidstrom, Steve Yzerman, Alex Ovechkin, Teemu Selanne, Peter Forsberg, Jaromir Jagr, Patrick Roy, Dominik Hasek, Mark Messier, Brian Leetch.
And yes, my list will continually be updated over the course of my life. But first things first: end the lockout.
So I take you don't value longevity at all? Or how about sheer and utter dominance?
4 Stanley Cups, 9 Harts, 5 Lester B. Pearsons, 2 Conn Smythes, 10 Art Rosses.. He has more assists than any other player has points. No other player crossed the 200pt mark, Gretzky did it not once but four times.
He holds the record for:
-Most points in a season
-Most goals in a season
-Most points in a playoff run
-Most assists in a playoff run
If we were comparing Orr to practically any other player, I'd concede, he had an outstanding all-around game and truly revolutionized the role of a defenseman. However, Wayne Gretzky did so much more than that. He revolutionized the game of hockey to an entirely new market. He was so dominant and spectacular to watch that he single-handedly drew interest from markets who were never considered viable hockey markets in the past.
Gretzky did it all as an NHL player, he literally accomplished every feat there is in the game of professional hockey. People love to sensationalize the prototype of a big, physical, smooth-skating, player with soft hands, and out-of this world vision and then they see a player like Mario Lemieux who was able to make a spectacle out of every game. What they fail to realize is that Gretzky was the Albert Einstein of hockey. He was literally a genius. He played one of the -- if not the most physical sports in the world, and he was literally able to practically avoid physical contact altogether. He didn't need to out-skate players, or out-muscle them, he had unprecedented (to this day) vision and foresight that allowed him move the puck around the opposition or feed his linemates impossible passes game-in, game-out. One must appreciate the sheer simplicity in Gretzky's game and understand how effective and undefendable he was as a result of it, to truly value how special of a player Gretzky was.
Gretzky even holds the record for holding the most records. Best record to hold IMO
Gretzky even holds the record for holding the most records. Best record to hold IMO
The problem there is that it is way too easy to make up new categories. Who is All-Time leader in Stanley Cup Finals in scoring 4-1 goals at 16:53 of third period in road games in May on Wednesday?
Top 10 since the mid 90s (excluding Gretzky/Lemieux/Bourque since they retired though if I had to include them then they'd make this top 10). This would obviously look different if it was since the early 90s because then Roy would be ahead of Brodeur imo, Yzerman would be ahead of Hasek/Forsberg, etc. But based on what they did since I started watching hockey...
Lidstrom
Jagr
Sakic
Brodeur
Roy
Hasek
Forsberg
Yzerman
Niedermayer
Selanne
Assuming the list starts in 1994-95, it should look more like this (split up by F/D/G, not listed by ability):
1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Gordie Howe
3. Bobby Orr
4. Mario Lemieux
5. Jean Beliveau
6. Bobby Hull
7. Doug Harvey
8. Dominik Hasek
9. Eddie Shore
10. Maurice Richard
- Bobby Orr is for me the most talented player of All-Time, but his lack of career longevity is a detriment of him being place over Gretzky (21 seasons) and Howe (30+ seasons). I'm very comfortable with my Top-4, but I always change my mind with the 5th to 10th position. Players that I would include in a Top-10 position would be Stan Mikita, Howie Morenz, Ray Bourque, Niklas Lidstrom, Jacques Plante and Patrick Roy.
