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New CBA? Are Panthers Well Positioned? (ALL CBA TALK HERE)

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11-10-2012, 11:15 AM
  #126
Haj
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Originally Posted by JP Mick View Post
Not at all. I want Gudbranson, I want Goc, I want Versteeg, Mueller, Campbell and Parros.
I'd much rather support the Cyclones and Rampage than the Florida Mock-Panthers.
We already supported the Mock-Panthers from 2001 to 2010. I don't want to go back.

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11-12-2012, 06:38 PM
  #127
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Brand new goals on the pallet at the training center.

That should be a good sign for the season to start soon because there is no reason for Incredible Ice to buy them. They have enough goals and Incredible Ice is notriously cheap.

My 2 cents on the negotiations - The owners are wrong to even suggest that they would not honour the current contracts. They made the deals and they should be stuck with them.

The players don't deserve any more than a 50/50 split of HRR.

The higher percentage was a deal the owners made 7 years ago and the players agreed to lowering the salaries.

What the players refuse to acknowledge is that their are no" rights" or "entitlements" that they are "losing." The only thing that comes close is when the owners attempt to lower or change existing contracts. Cry Baby Cindy should shut up and stop showing how ignorant he really is.

The players are ridiculous when they think that they deserve to get the lost salaries back from the lockout. You get paid when you work and create the revenue.

All of these contract issues and HRR splits are simply negotiating tools and the sides need to make it simple and get the deal done.

A December 1 start is what appears to be the real target date for at least a few weeks now. Too many changes have been going on to not believe it.

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11-12-2012, 08:36 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Great8Cam View Post
Brand new goals on the pallet at the training center.

That should be a good sign for the season to start soon because there is no reason for Incredible Ice to buy them. They have enough goals and Incredible Ice is notriously cheap.

My 2 cents on the negotiations - The owners are wrong to even suggest that they would not honour the current contracts. They made the deals and they should be stuck with them.

The players don't deserve any more than a 50/50 split of HRR.

The higher percentage was a deal the owners made 7 years ago and the players agreed to lowering the salaries.

What the players refuse to acknowledge is that their are no" rights" or "entitlements" that they are "losing." The only thing that comes close is when the owners attempt to lower or change existing contracts. Cry Baby Cindy should shut up and stop showing how ignorant he really is.

The players are ridiculous when they think that they deserve to get the lost salaries back from the lockout. You get paid when you work and create the revenue.

All of these contract issues and HRR splits are simply negotiating tools and the sides need to make it simple and get the deal done.

A December 1 start is what appears to be the real target date for at least a few weeks now. Too many changes have been going on to not believe it.
Thanks for heads up great8, as usual very nice to read what is going on and hope immensely that is the case. I miss Panthers hockey badly

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11-20-2012, 12:51 AM
  #129
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Hawk fan comming in peace.

Have you seen the comments from Kris Versteeg?

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I'm really frustrated. It's not good. You do try to look at the best-case scenarios moving forward once the CBA does get done, and you gotta look for the cancers and you gotta cut out the cancers and I think that when you look at Bill Daly and Bettman, they've been looting this game for far too long.
We miss Steeger in Chicago but he has to quit ripping off my material and should stick to rapping Fergie.

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11-20-2012, 01:23 AM
  #130
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Any respect I may have had for the guy has pretty much been eradicated.

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11-20-2012, 08:15 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by StrangeVision View Post
Any respect I may have had for the guy has pretty much been eradicated.
I never understand this opinion though. Because 1 day earlier, a writer (Bill Simmons) basically states almost the same thing and not receiving the same treatment. Simmons just does so much eloquently than Steeger but thats because Simmons is paid to do so. And really, how wrong is either of them? Its probably about time that Daly & Bettman do need to go and probably will after this lockout ends. I cant see how they keep their jobs when they've been in charge with 3 different work stoppages with different union management each time.

If you havent read it, its worth reading the article Simmons wrote called "Go Away, Gary" which was linked on ESPN's website.

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11-20-2012, 01:07 PM
  #132
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Personally, I don't have a problem with what he said. Are salaries, his especially, inflated? Yes, but so is every sports players' salary.

At the start of this whole debacle I was on the players side, and after reviewing the proposal made back in October, I am now on the owner's side. If the players want to play so badly, then why not actually contribute and negotiate? They are holding themselves back as far as I see things.

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11-20-2012, 11:28 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by StrangeVision View Post
Any respect I may have had for the guy has pretty much been eradicated.
Tell me about it. Those are some pretty nasty comments considering it's a two-way battle over money.

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11-21-2012, 04:00 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Coolburn View Post
I never understand this opinion though. Because 1 day earlier, a writer (Bill Simmons) basically states almost the same thing and not receiving the same treatment. Simmons just does so much eloquently than Steeger but thats because Simmons is paid to do so. And really, how wrong is either of them? Its probably about time that Daly & Bettman do need to go and probably will after this lockout ends. I cant see how they keep their jobs when they've been in charge with 3 different work stoppages with different union management each time.

If you havent read it, its worth reading the article Simmons wrote called "Go Away, Gary" which was linked on ESPN's website.

Bettman and Daly won't be gone after the lockout ends. they work for the owners, and they are just doing what the owners want them to do. regardless of fan perception of the two, the owners opinions are the only relevant ones.

ignorant comments from Versteeg and/or Simmons won't change that. that article was terrible, btw, and completely biased.

the last lockout, while painful, was a rousing success for the league. league revenues doubled. hopefully this one has a similar outcome. bettman is a patronizing, condescending *****, but he's a smart businessman and he knows what he's doing. he's not going to get fired.

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11-21-2012, 09:55 AM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flapanthersfan View Post
Bettman and Daly won't be gone after the lockout ends. they work for the owners, and they are just doing what the owners want them to do. regardless of fan perception of the two, the owners opinions are the only relevant ones.

ignorant comments from Versteeg and/or Simmons won't change that. that article was terrible, btw, and completely biased.

the last lockout, while painful, was a rousing success for the league. league revenues doubled. hopefully this one has a similar outcome. bettman is a patronizing, condescending *****, but he's a smart businessman and he knows what he's doing. he's not going to get fired.
We dont know exactly whats going on behind the scenes to say Bettman is doing what the owners want. I think Bettman has promised the owners a lot and thats why they have had a "take our offer or leave it" approach on several occasions. One of the owners (Ed Snider of the Flyers) is rumored to be souring on the process according to sources in Philly. Its not inconceivable to see the owners looking to replace Bettman after this lockout is over just like the players union replaced Goodenow (only 2 weeks after the last CBA was resolved).

I'm sorry but why was the article completely biased? How was it unfair at all? Simmons, while not a true hockey writer, is more of a casual American fan. So yes some of his info may be misinformed or lacking the full knowledge of more hardcore fans. But Simmons is considered a hugely popular writer and they did research once that out of 100,000 hits on ESPN one day that 60,000 of them were going to read Simmons' article. The fact that he wrote about how the lockout is still going on shows that even the average fan who isnt a diehard is getting sick of this process.

I'm sorry but outside of the revenue growth, how was the last lockout a success exactly? If it was such a success, we wouldnt be locked out again. I mean the league and owners kept saying during the last lockout, "we need a salary cap so we can get cost certainty and not lose so much money". Now they're saying "we need to pay the players less so we can get cost certainty and not lose so much money". Nothing really changed from the last lockout to this one so I see no reason why the the last CBA should be termed a "success" at all, unless you mean success in having the game back.

I refer to Simmons' quote which sums it up nicely:
Quote:
The case against Bettman in one sentence: The NHL sacrificed an entire season so they could reimagine their entire salary structure … and only seven years later, that "reimagining" went so poorly that they might have to sacrifice a second season because they need a mulligan.

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11-21-2012, 07:09 PM
  #136
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Im on my phone so my response will be short.

The big market owners are likely all frustrates with the process because theyre not gaining anything with this. That being said...its majority rule and theres obviously more owners in support than there is against the process or we wouldnt be where we are. And yes... we do know whats going on behind the scenes because Bettman works for the owners. If the majority wanted the lockout to be over tomorrow... the lockout would end tomorrow.

Goodenow got canned for corruption and other nonsense. It isnt comparable.

As far as the Simmons article...you admit its misinformed then asked why the article is terrible? You answered your own question already. I dont care if Simmons is popular with average sports fans...all hes doing with average sports fans is misguiding them.

and as far as the quote...more misguided information/logic. you really think bettman and company wouldnt have liked to have made the revenue split 50-50 last go around and/or fix all these other issues?Obviously. But what he and apparently you dont understand is that these CBA deals take two yo tango. It took an entire season to get the NHLPA to agree to a salary cap. You seriously think they could have held out even longer then to get even more dramatic concessions? And jeapordize back to back seasons? Please.

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11-21-2012, 10:10 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Coolburn View Post
I never understand this opinion though. Because 1 day earlier, a writer (Bill Simmons) basically states almost the same thing and not receiving the same treatment. Simmons just does so much eloquently than Steeger but thats because Simmons is paid to do so. And really, how wrong is either of them? Its probably about time that Daly & Bettman do need to go and probably will after this lockout ends. I cant see how they keep their jobs when they've been in charge with 3 different work stoppages with different union management each time.

If you havent read it, its worth reading the article Simmons wrote called "Go Away, Gary" which was linked on ESPN's website.
You know I keep seeing people say it's all Bettman's fault he's been here for all 3 lockouts. Have you looked at the NHLPA's leadership? These guys are a total cluster. The guy before Goodenow plead guilty to fraud. Then you have Goodnow who struck right before the playoffs then led the players over the cliff in the last lockout. Then they hired Ted Saskin Who was spying on their e-mails so they had to fire him for misconduct. Then they hired Paul Kelly Who lasted a whopping 2 years and was voted out in the middle of the night because he tried to work with the league instead of being an antagonist. After Kelly they hired Fehr who's greatest accomplishment was canceling a world series. And he proceeded to ignore all calls to negotiate until basically the last minute and he's so organized that he shows up to meetings 3 hours late without "running the numbers." So can we layoff with the Gary's been involved in all three lockouts it must be his fault? It's not like he's negotiating with the same people all the time or the people he is negotiating with have a clue how to run their own union. The NHLPA is a joke and you can tell that whenever half it's members speak in public or take to twitter.

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11-25-2012, 09:39 AM
  #138
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What's the latest? I've lost myself and can't figure out what journalist to trust.

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01-06-2013, 07:17 AM
  #139
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Weaker financial teams in secondary markets, like Florida, are the big winners in the new CBA for a host of reasons., including:

1) There is now $200 million per season set aside to redistribute to weaker franchises and another $60 million for growing the game. Additonally, the Panthers will now keep something closer to 50% of their revenues as opposed to $43%. My guess is that this will result in a $14-20 million annual swing in favor of the Panthers, which more than offsets hockey related losses and enables them to book a profit from the hockey side;

2) The cap rollback favor teams with abundant cap space in the 2013-14 off season and beyond, such as the Panthers, who should be able to both resign their players and participate in free agency;

3) The elimination of back diving contracts levels the playing field for teams like the Panthers, who could not afford to pay the huge upfront payments etc.

4) Tallon, whether through luck, skill or a combination, by entering into 4 year contracts with a host of players in the prior to 2010-11 season, positioned the Panthers almost perfectly for the new CBA roll backs.

go Cats

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01-06-2013, 08:14 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by SufferingCatFan View Post
1) There is now $200 million per season set aside to redistribute to weaker franchises and another $60 million for growing the game. Additonally, the Panthers will now keep something closer to 50% of their revenues as opposed to $43%. My guess is that this will result in a $14-20 million annual swing in favor of the Panthers, which more than offsets hockey related losses and enables them to book a profit from the hockey side;
I don't think it's not so high number, revenue gains, what's their annual HRR, $50 million a year (or is revenue sharing counted twice?), i think they continue giving 100% of HRR to players.

JOL

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01-06-2013, 08:39 AM
  #141
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I don't think it's not so high number, revenue gains, what's their annual HRR, $50 million a year (or is revenue sharing counted twice?), i think they continue giving 100% of HRR to players.

JOL
There are about 1/3rd strong teams, 1/3rd medium teams and 1/3rd weak teams in the NHL. The weakest teams seem to be CBJ, Hurricanes, Coyotes, Kings, Islanders, Stars, Predators, Wild, Ducks, Devils, Panthers, Tampa (although several admittedly have uber rich owners). Assuming that 70% of the subsidiary money goes to these 12 teams that equals $140 million out of $200 million in revenue sharing and $42 million out of $60 million in hockey market growth, which equates to an average of about $15 million per team. If all the money goes to these teams , then its is $20 million per team.

The HRR is calculated on a league wide basis of which 50% goes to the players plus $360 million in make whole payments, which will likely largely be consumed by amnesty buyouts and make whole payments for the partial season IMO. The Panthers will benefit from the hard cap, because in the past, due to cap circumvention techniques, actual salaries and bonuses often greatly exceeded the supposed cap.

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01-06-2013, 08:40 AM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SufferingCatFan View Post
Weaker financial teams in secondary markets, like Florida, are the big winners in the new CBA for a host of reasons., including:

1) There is now $200 million per season set aside to redistribute to weaker franchises and another $60 million for growing the game. Additonally, the Panthers will now keep something closer to 50% of their revenues as opposed to $43%. My guess is that this will result in a $14-20 million annual swing in favor of the Panthers, which more than offsets hockey related losses and enables them to book a profit from the hockey side;

2) The cap rollback favor teams with abundant cap space in the 2013-14 off season and beyond, such as the Panthers, who should be able to both resign their players and participate in free agency;

3) The elimination of back diving contracts levels the playing field for teams like the Panthers, who could not afford to pay the huge upfront payments etc.

4) Tallon, whether through luck, skill or a combination, by entering into 4 year contracts with a host of players in the prior to 2010-11 season, positioned the Panthers almost perfectly for the new CBA roll backs.

go Cats
Looks like the Cats should be in good shape financially. SSE was already making a killing off of everything that went on at the arena, so Im hoping that extra revenue on the hockey side would mean Tallon being able to spend closer to the cap.

Another interesting thing is that all 14 teams that miss the playoffs are now considered lottery teams, so any of the 14 teams could now get the 1st overall pick. That is possible because they removed the 4 spot jump if you won the lottery. Since that happened though, I guess they didnt agree on 10 teams in each conference making the playoffs.

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01-06-2013, 09:30 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by SufferingCatFan View Post
There are about 1/3rd strong teams, 1/3rd medium teams and 1/3rd weak teams in the NHL. The weakest teams seem to be CBJ, Hurricanes, Coyotes, Kings, Islanders, Stars, Predators, Wild, Ducks, Devils, Panthers, Tampa (although several admittedly have uber rich owners). Assuming that 70% of the subsidiary money goes to these 12 teams that equals $140 million out of $200 million in revenue sharing and $42 million out of $60 million in hockey market growth, which equates to an average of about $15 million per team. If all the money goes to these teams , then its is $20 million per team.
What I meant that it's not $14-$20 extra what Panthers are getting, they are already getting revenue sharing, so maybe they might be getting $3-$5 million more, which is, of course, great amount of money.
But Panthers are giving about 100% of their HRR (HRR= revenues-losses-revenue sharing) to players.

JOL

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01-06-2013, 11:23 AM
  #144
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What I meant that it's not $14-$20 extra what Panthers are getting, they are already getting revenue sharing, so maybe they might be getting $3-$5 million more, which is, of course, great amount of money.
But Panthers are giving about 100% of their HRR (HRR= revenues-losses-revenue sharing) to players.

JOL
Great points. This is just speculation on my part, but I believe that the rs component plus the hockey market component may combine to double the current sum. I do not know how the contribution of the individual teams to total HRR is calculated so I cannot comment on your second point, but you may well be correct.

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