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Phoenix LXIV: Will You Still Need Me, Will You Still Read Me, on Thread LXIV?

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Old
11-20-2012, 03:49 AM
  #851
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Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
And how do you propose they condense four years worth of tough questions down to fit a 4 1/2 minute news interview spot?

The answer is you can't.
Yes but the media in Phoenix has had plenty of time over the last 4 years to ask the hard questions within the time frame of each of the events that took place.

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11-20-2012, 05:36 AM
  #852
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And how do you propose they condense four years worth of tough questions down to fit a 4 1/2 minute news interview spot?

The answer is you can't.
You can at least ask one question based on her earlier responses, like:

"Why in your wildest dreams would Jamison ever decide to buy the arena and spend money to give up $300 million in management fees that are contractually his? What possible earthly reason is there that makes you, and educated councilwoman, think that this is even a remote possibility?"

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11-20-2012, 06:59 AM
  #853
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She's using the term "uneducated" in a different context than what you're suggesting. But.... of course.... your comment was exactly what I suspected I'd see when I posted the link.

Seems there was a lot of "confusion" among Glendale voters regarding the tax-rollback initiative (Prop 457) despite CoG's efforts to explain the reasoning behind the tax increase via their website and other outlets. On top of the huge campaign info effort by the Glendale's police and fire departments explaining what passing 457 would do.

People can be "uneducated" by their own choice.
When I first saw the 'uneducated' comment I thought blues10 was slamming the citizens of Glendale, fortunately I decided to watch the link for I layed into him.

My analysis of the recent election suggests that the citizens are very informed of the issues. Prop 457 passed very handily suggesting there wasn't any confusion over that issue. Likewise Clark was easily defeated, and once again it says educated public about the issues.

The citizens of Glendale are educated about what is going on in their city. The only uneducated one is Joyce Clark herself.

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11-20-2012, 07:32 AM
  #854
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Some observations.

1.Uneducated populace.
2. GJ can by the arena the day after he signs the lease and no AMF will need to be paid.
3. $11 million AMF. Really?
4. $30 000 penalty per un played hockey game. What a great deal for GJ and the JSG.

Clark never fails to disappoint.
Clark was defeated and her political career is over. When will she stop trying to mislead her fellow citizens? She's tried to pull the "Jamison can buy the arena" and "$11 million AMF" nonsense before. Maybe she's trying to "uneducate" them.

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11-20-2012, 07:35 AM
  #855
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You can at least ask one question based on her earlier responses, like:

"Why in your wildest dreams would Jamison ever decide to buy the arena and spend money to give up $300 million in management fees that are contractually his? What possible earthly reason is there that makes you, and educated councilwoman, think that this is even a remote possibility?"
More to the point, she could have been asked why the purchase of the arena was not part of the Jamison deal. Presumably they've had plenty of time to talk about that and he has decided that he doesn't want to buy the arena. Clark just continues to blow smoke about the deal. I'm not sure what she thinks it will accomplish at this point.

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11-20-2012, 07:40 AM
  #856
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Pure speculation on my part, but I wonder if she's heard rumblings from the populace re ramming through the deal, and the aformentioned idea of the tax revenue being used for Yotes instead of fire/police. Sounds like she's trying to downplay the deal, saying he can buy the arena, ect, ect.

Also sounds like she's getting a bit nervous about what may happen if they do run a deal through, and trying to explain herself ahead of time.

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11-20-2012, 08:07 AM
  #857
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Clark:"With the Coyotes gone, we lose the revenue..." Is she talking about the 2.4m$ in revenue? I wish the reporter would ask how much revenue are you gonna lose, I'd be curious to know what numbers would have come out of Clark's mouth. And then says without those revenues they are gonna need to cut expenses. As if the Coyotes are the cure to Glendale's financial problems!!!

She really tried to downplay the costs for the city. Jamieson can buy the arena, the AMF is down to 11m$ etc... Does she believe herself? I'm starting to question what's in it for her... if you know what I mean.

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11-20-2012, 08:14 AM
  #858
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Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
More to the point, she could have been asked why the purchase of the arena was not part of the Jamison deal. Presumably they've had plenty of time to talk about that and he has decided that he doesn't want to buy the arena. Clark just continues to blow smoke about the deal. I'm not sure what she thinks it will accomplish at this point.
Clark needs to check her meds if she truly believes Jamison is going to buy the arena.

Why would Jamison even consider it? The answer is he wouldn't. He is not some uneducated buffoon. He is getting $308M to run the arena for 20 years, which happens to be $188M over the going rate of ~$6M per year. If Jamison does end up with the arena, it will not be because he purchased it... it will be because he convinced the CoG to give it to him for free, because 5 years from now when the Coyotes are still losing buckets of money, he will go to council and say he needs another "gift" to make it work. And the CoG being the CoG, will hand him over the keys without question AND still pay him the AMF as well... Anything to keep the team from moving.

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11-20-2012, 08:18 AM
  #859
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She really tried to downplay the costs for the city. Jamieson can buy the arena, the AMF is down to 11m$ etc... Does she believe herself? I'm starting to question what's in it for her... if you know what I mean.
What's in it for her? A statue of course. A 50 ft statue of Clark in the Westgate Plaza to show everyone who saved the CoG.

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11-20-2012, 08:28 AM
  #860
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Clark needs to check her meds if she truly believes Jamison is going to buy the arena.

Why would Jamison even consider it? The answer is he wouldn't. He is not some uneducated buffoon. He is getting $308M to run the arena for 20 years, which happens to be $188M over the going rate of ~$6M per year. If Jamison does end up with the arena, it will not be because he purchased it... it will be because he convinced the CoG to give it to him for free, because 5 years from now when the Coyotes are still losing buckets of money, he will go to council and say he needs another "gift" to make it work. And the CoG being the CoG, will hand him over the keys without question AND still pay him the AMF as well... Anything to keep the team from moving.
The reasonable question would have been, "If Jamison intends to purchase the Jobing.com, why didn't you just negotiate with him to sell the arena, instead of negotiating a 20-year lease?"

Not only does she say that Jamison has an option to purchase the team, she actually goes on to imply that Jamison will buy the Jobing.com, retiring the arena debt and eliminating the AMF. When asked what is "different" about this deal, she claims that the the AMF has been reduced from a high of $17 million to $11 million. I guess she forgot that the $11 million is only for this year, which is actually quickly melting away. Sorry I have to do this, but....


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11-20-2012, 08:39 AM
  #861
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I would have no problem with such a thread as long as the same kind of thread existed about the Coyotes as well. In addition, all infomation given is checked for accuracy and finalized by a 3rd party source who don't have a horse in either the Jets or Coyotes race.
All of this to see to it that the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth is in these threads.
I would love to see that, personally. It's an emotional issue. An uninvolved person tracking down all the actual facts on both sides and laying them out would be great, even if it's just as a resource to link people to whenever these issues come up again (which they will).

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Another piece of truth here is that at the end of the day, the size of a rally or no rally at all makes no difference on the fate of a team when facing relocation, no matter the sport or how popular the sport is for that matter in the area that is facing the threat of a team relocating. Football is way bigger to this day in Los Angeles than hockey but yet the city lost both of its NFL teams and the rally to save both the Rams and the Raiders didn't make a difference. Also, just because one doesn't show up to a rally that doesn't mean that one doesn't care for the team or wants to see that team go for that matter.
Fair enough. Obviously the Jets rally didn't work, because the team relocated, but I guess the reason the rally keeps getting brought up is because of the impression outsiders have. There has been a lot of sympathy among hockey fans toward Winnipeg for a long time, and loads of support from all over the world when we got a team again, and I think the rally had a lot to do with that. It was a very visible "we care about our team" grassroots event, and I think it went a long way toward the impression that we were a real hockey town that got a bum deal due to the economics of the time.

I don't mean to be insulting (if I did, there'd be a lot more censored words here), but do you think Phoenix, if the team relocates, will have the same kind of goodwill in the hockey world? The general impression I've seen here is that people are frustrated at seeing what appears to be a lack of support from the Coyotes fanbase, and that even if it doesn't work, something along the lines of the Save Our Jets rally would go a long way toward other hockey fans taking Phoenix seriously as a market.

Just think about how the situation looks to an outsider, especially to someone from Canada, where hockey is *the* sport, at the same level as football down there. The Coyotes fans honestly appear incredibly apathetic, and on the surface, the whole situation appears very unfair. Winnipeg -- with a *much* smaller population -- gets around 30,000+ people out to save the team, raising millions of dollars from fans' own pockets, etc. and they *still* lose it, while Phoenix -- a city of *millions* -- doesn't have fans doing *anything*, not even showing up to games in large numbers, and they get to keep the team.

So, no, you don't need to do a rally in order for things to work out, but if you want public sympathy or support, I think people will be more likely to get behind the idea of the Coyotes staying in Phoenix if there's even the *appearance* of fan support.

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11-20-2012, 08:47 AM
  #862
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Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
Not only does she say that Jamison has an option to purchase the team, she actually goes on to imply that Jamison will buy the Jobing.com, retiring the arena debt and eliminating the AMF. When asked what is "different" about this deal, she claims that the the AMF has been reduced from a high of $17 million to $11 million. I guess she forgot that the $11 million is only for this year, which is actually quickly melting away.
Actually the real interesting thing in all this is...

Clark and the council are admitting, that by even talking about Jamision buying the arena... that building the arena in the first place was a huge mistake and they want it off their books in anyway possible. A few years back Lieberman was quoted once as saying something to the affect that once the debt on the arena is taken care of, he doesn't care if the Coyotes stay or not.

Saying that Westgate needs the Coyotes is a smoke screen...
Saying the CoG as a whole needs the Coyotes is a smoke screen...

This is all about a city building an arena that they now admit was a mistake and how can we pay it off. There dream obviously would be to have someone buy it from them and remove the burden from the CoG. Not ever going to happen IMO.


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11-20-2012, 09:21 AM
  #863
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Actually the real interesting thing in all this is...

Clark and the council are admitting, that by even talking about Jamision buying the arena... that building the arena in the first place was a huge mistake and they want it off their books in anyway possible. A few years back Lieberman was quoted once as saying something to the affect that once the debt on the arena is taken care of, he doesn't care if the Coyotes stay or not.

Saying that Westgate needs the Coyotes is a smoke screen...
Saying the CoG as a whole needs the Coyotes is a smoke screen...

This is all about a city building an arena that they now admit was a mistake and how can we pay it off. There dream obviously would be to have someone buy it from them and remove the burden from the CoG. Not ever going to happen IMO.
I don't know about that didn't Westgate had a new store chain moving in recently? If they put the building on the block maybe they get a taker probably not for the whole cost of construction but maybe enough to cover the remaining debt. But that would involve telling the NHL to take a hike. And the whole mess is more about losing face than money anyway.


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Old
11-20-2012, 09:33 AM
  #864
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
Actually the real interesting thing in all this is...

Clark and the council are admitting, that by even talking about Jamision buying the arena... that building the arena in the first place was a huge mistake and they want it off their books in anyway possible. A few years back Lieberman was quoted once as saying something to the affect that once the debt on the arena is taken care of, he doesn't care if the Coyotes stay or not.

Saying that Westgate needs the Coyotes is a smoke screen...
Saying the CoG as a whole needs the Coyotes is a smoke screen...

This is all about a city building an arena that they now admit was a mistake and how can we pay it off. There dream obviously would be to have someone buy it from them and remove the burden from the CoG. Not ever going to happen IMO.
A big part of the "mistake" was that the COG didn't expect that they would have to pay $15 million a year to secure a hockey team for the Jobing.com. Now that the reality is sinking in, some are now rethinking the original business and development model. Clark is not. I think that's fine. Her vision, and that of other council members, is centered on keeping the Coyotes, even if it means a large subsidy. That's their prerogative and if they can convince citizens to support them and do this legally, then I'm all for it. I like hockey.

What is objectionable is the way in which she and other council members and the city administration has so consistently misrepresented the actual cost of the deals and the exaggerated claims about the financial benefits. Maybe the electorate become just educated enough to realize that they didn't want to re-elect a council member who would play fast and loose with the facts and act without conveying a sense of fiscal responsibility. If she wants to educate the citizens, give them the facts, not some cooked up version that supports your position.

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11-20-2012, 10:05 AM
  #865
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A big part of the "mistake" was that the COG didn't expect that they would have to pay $15 million a year to secure a hockey team for the Jobing.com. Now that the reality is sinking in, some are now rethinking the original business and development model. Clark is not. I think that's fine. Her vision, and that of other council members, is centered on keeping the Coyotes, even if it means a large subsidy. That's their prerogative and if they can convince citizens to support them and do this legally, then I'm all for it. I like hockey.

What is objectionable is the way in which she and other council members and the city administration has so consistently misrepresented the actual cost of the deals and the exaggerated claims about the financial benefits. Maybe the electorate become just educated enough to realize that they didn't want to re-elect a council member who would play fast and loose with the facts and act without conveying a sense of fiscal responsibility. If she wants to educate the citizens, give them the facts, not some cooked up version that supports your position.
Well said!

I agree that if people of Glendale get to know the real costs and vote in favor, then by all means, pay to keep your team. But make it fair and legal. Not with half thruts, lies and Clarkonomics.

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11-20-2012, 11:05 AM
  #866
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Again, I wonder what "interest" is driving Clark to the point of obsession. Sounds like everyone else is taking a bigger looks, but Clark keeps pushing forward, and I keep thinking why else is she doing this? She's gone so far beyond what a "normal" political push would do, it makes me think there's a vested interest somewhere that we aren't privy to.

Lately she has this whole tone of "desperation" going on, just wonder if she's got something serious to lose behind the scenes if/when this all goes south.

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11-20-2012, 11:11 AM
  #867
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Again, I wonder what "interest" is driving Clark to the point of obsession. Sounds like everyone else is taking a bigger looks, but Clark keeps pushing forward, and I keep thinking why else is she doing this? She's gone so far beyond what a "normal" political push would do, it makes me think there's a vested interest somewhere that we aren't privy to.

Lately she has this whole tone of "desperation" going on, just wonder if she's got something serious to lose behind the scenes if/when this all goes south.
Who know maybe she got a piece of the few restaurant and bars affected.

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11-20-2012, 11:35 AM
  #868
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Again, I wonder what "interest" is driving Clark to the point of obsession. Sounds like everyone else is taking a bigger looks, but Clark keeps pushing forward, and I keep thinking why else is she doing this? She's gone so far beyond what a "normal" political push would do, it makes me think there's a vested interest somewhere that we aren't privy to.

Lately she has this whole tone of "desperation" going on, just wonder if she's got something serious to lose behind the scenes if/when this all goes south.
I don't want to say something too controversial but I'm wondering if there is some sort of bribery going on here? I don't think the NHL or Jamison would risk the negative consequences of getting involved in such corruption, but usually when people are this insistent on going forward with a deal that's this bad there is something off. Or perhaps she is a season ticketholder and realizes that she will have far too much time on her hands come January and needs a local hockey team to keep her entertained?

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11-20-2012, 11:40 AM
  #869
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Lately she has this whole tone of "desperation" going on, just wonder if she's got something serious to lose behind the scenes if/when this all goes south.
I believe you're on the right track here

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11-20-2012, 11:42 AM
  #870
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Again, I wonder what "interest" is driving Clark to the point of obsession. Sounds like everyone else is taking a bigger looks, but Clark keeps pushing forward, and I keep thinking why else is she doing this? She's gone so far beyond what a "normal" political push would do, it makes me think there's a vested interest somewhere that we aren't privy to.

Lately she has this whole tone of "desperation" going on, just wonder if she's got something serious to lose behind the scenes if/when this all goes south.
I'll give her the benefit of the doubt on her motivation. She obviously thinks that this is the best approach for the citizens of Glendale. I expect that many hockey fans in many cities would love to have city politicians who were willing to spend tax payers money to subsidize the local NHL team.

There are two problems with her approach. First, she has fallen into the trap of so many public figures of fudging the information to try to persuade an "uneducated" public to support her position. Second, I think that this gambit is destined for failure. Even if this lame duck council passes a motion supporting the lease, that won't solve the issue. If she and her supporters are interested in a durable solution for the Coyotes in Glendale, I don't think that this is a wise move.

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11-20-2012, 12:04 PM
  #871
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I don't know about that didn't Westgate had a new store chain moving in recently? If they put the building on the block maybe they get a taker probably not for the whole cost of construction but maybe enough to cover the remaining debt. But that would involve telling the NHL to take a hike. And the whole mess is more about losing face than money anyway.
... not sure I follow you here madhi. Tanger Discount Stores bought property adjacent to Westgate & are building a big box mall with dozens upon dozens of merchants selling discount name brand clothing & accessories. They didnt lease space from iStar Financial who foreclosed on Ellman & took over Westgate when he fell behind in making his $200M+ loan payments. They held an auction last year with a reserve price of $40M and had no takers. Subsequently, theyve hired a Management Firm to lease out space, look after the place. Last I heard or read was they planned to hang on to Westgate, wait out the still somewhat sagging economy, probably sell when things get better. Credit Suisse as well got left holding the bag to the tune of $500M by Ellman, foreclosing on vacant land also adjacent to Westgate against unpaid loans. They too held an auction; again, reserve price of $200M not met.

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Again, I wonder what "interest" is driving Clark to the point of obsession.... Lately she has this whole tone of desperation going on, just wonder if she's got something serious to lose behind the scenes if/when this all goes south.
... she went down the Rabbit Hole quite some time ago. Bought into the false schemes & dreamy numbers hook line & sinker. Clings fast to a vision that is wholly impracticable, irrational. Lost at sea. An artistic and benevolent nature that is wholly unsuited to the nasty games played by civil servants, politicians, developers and pro sports team owners, wannabe owners & leagues. Beyond her comprehension, pay grade. Refuses to accept she's been & is still apparently being hoodwinked despite massive evidence to the contrary. Its easy to attack her, however, Im going to the high road here, as I think she's more deserving of pity than anything else. She's a Gambler, refuses to accept she's got a problem, that people with power at any and all levels, those with or seeking wealth/power can be corrupt/corrupted. I think she's just far to naive' to be "on the take" herself though TL. Cant see that, what benefits of graft she might be the recipient of. I dont read any criminality in her makeup. Just innocently & foolishly high minded.


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11-20-2012, 12:07 PM
  #872
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All I can say is what is good for the goose....

There is a lot of misinformation from both sides. You can have have as many threads with the proper information and the postings will still happen. Just ignore the posts and life is good.

It is like trying to convince Donald trump that Obama is a naturalized American citizen. Just will not happen.
Obama is not a naturalized American Citizen, he was born here.

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11-20-2012, 12:22 PM
  #873
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And how do you propose they condense four years worth of tough questions down to fit a 4 1/2 minute news interview spot?

The answer is you can't.
Simple. Just 3 questions.

You are paying GJ all this money in addition to the paying of the bonds for the building of the arena. How much revenue are you receiving from events at the arena?

If this is such a good deal and business proposition, why has it taken 3 years and providing a subsidy to get anyone interested and no one closing?

Why do the numbers change with every single proposed owner and lease deal though you are using the same source of information?



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Clark:"With the Coyotes gone, we lose the revenue..." Is she talking about the 2.4m$ in revenue? I wish the reporter would ask how much revenue are you gonna lose, I'd be curious to know what numbers would have come out of Clark's mouth. And then says without those revenues they are gonna need to cut expenses. As if the Coyotes are the cure to Glendale's financial problems!!!

She really tried to downplay the costs for the city. Jamieson can buy the arena, the AMF is down to 11m$ etc... Does she believe herself? I'm starting to question what's in it for her... if you know what I mean.
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A big part of the "mistake" was that the COG didn't expect that they would have to pay $15 million a year to secure a hockey team for the Jobing.com. Now that the reality is sinking in, some are now rethinking the original business and development model. Clark is not. I think that's fine. Her vision, and that of other council members, is centered on keeping the Coyotes, even if it means a large subsidy. That's their prerogative and if they can convince citizens to support them and do this legally, then I'm all for it. I like hockey.

What is objectionable is the way in which she and other council members and the city administration has so consistently misrepresented the actual cost of the deals and the exaggerated claims about the financial benefits. Maybe the electorate become just educated enough to realize that they didn't want to re-elect a council member who would play fast and loose with the facts and act without conveying a sense of fiscal responsibility. If she wants to educate the citizens, give them the facts, not some cooked up version that supports your position.
Two excellent points.

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11-20-2012, 12:50 PM
  #874
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Simple. Just 3 questions.
... thing is Tommy, she'd just rely on the faulty numbers, obtusely & defensively answering fictitiously, clinging fast to the fabrications designed & developed by Hocking & Beasley. Youd need a lot more than a 4.5 minute Q&A. Youd need to be able ask followup's. Ideally, the interview itself conducted by a De-Programmer. Someone from Black-Op's perhaps. Brainiac recruited by the CIA from John Hopkins. A Psychiatrist practised in the arts of sublimation, hypnotism. She needs some serious time in a decompression chamber does that one. Sad really.

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11-20-2012, 12:52 PM
  #875
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Country: Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy Hawk View Post
Obama is not a naturalized American Citizen, he was born here.

Right, I was referring to Trump calling him a naturalized American citizen and then flipped the sentence around to say the opposite oops

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