1) Gretzky (greatest player in team sports history)
2) Orr
3) Lemiuex (2nd most talented forward I've ever seen)
4) Howe
5) Richard
6) Hull
7) Roy
8) Messier (Intense leader, 6 Stanley Cups, and 2nd all time scorer)
9) Hasek
10) Bossy (highest goals per game average ever, scored 50+ goals 9 years in a row, I believe that is a record or ties a record, 4th highest points per game average behind Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr)
I just wanted to put Lidstrom at #1... and the rest of the world is a bit forgotten in it..
1 = 00s = Nicklas Lidstrom
2 = 90s = Mario Lemieux
3 = 80s = Wayne Gretzky
4 = 70s = Bobby Orr
5 = 60s = Stan Mikita
6 = 50s = Gordie Howe
7 = 40s = Maurice Richard (Its a good movie...)
8 = 30s = Eddie Shore
9 = 20s = Howie Morenz
10 = 10s = Joe Malone
Pretty good list.
I just realized that all his Norris trophies between the 2000-2001 and 2010-2011 seasons. Also the Conn Smythe. That is ridiculous dominance. I mean Orr, Gretzky kind of trophy count. (I know he was not as good as Orr)
I'm curious what the age of a lot of the posters making these lists are. Everyone that I've talked to who is old enough to have seen both Gretzky and Orr play always puts Orr above Gretzky. I'll admit I didn't get to see Orr play and I didn't see Gretzky until the end of his career. However, from all the people that I've heard from that have seen both play, regardless of records or awards, all of them seem to put Orr above Gretzky. I just bet a lot of the people here arguing having seen Orr play and most likely never saw prime Gretzky play which makes their arguments ridiculous.
Assuming the list starts in 1994-95, it should look more like this (split up by F/D/G, not listed by ability):
Sakic
Jagr
Yzerman
Lindros
Lidstrom
Pronger
Hasek
Brodeur
Roy
Osgood
I never would have expected to see Osgood make an appearance in this thread... he isn't even remotely close to a top 10 player in the period since 1995.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour
I would have Viacheslav Fetisov and perhaps Sergei Makarov over Kharlamov on a All-Time list. None are top-10 material IMO.
I don't quite understand why Kharlamov is often the default top Russian. There seems to be a big differene between the legend and his actual accomplishments.
I'm curious what the age of a lot of the posters making these lists are. Everyone that I've talked to who is old enough to have seen both Gretzky and Orr play always puts Orr above Gretzky. I'll admit I didn't get to see Orr play and I didn't see Gretzky until the end of his career. However, from all the people that I've heard from that have seen both play, regardless of records or awards, all of them seem to put Orr above Gretzky. I just bet a lot of the people here arguing having seen Orr play and most likely never saw prime Gretzky play which makes their arguments ridiculous.
Ok go ask TS to rename thread, "anyone over 70yrs who posts on a hockey forum and witnessed a prime 99 and a in form Orr please rank"
Dude it's a message board, the beauty of these things is you get to have YOUR opinion. You can base it on stats, footage, word of mouth. If we were talking about aliens or sasquatches yea facts or actual eyewitnesses would be cool.
I'm curious what the age of a lot of the posters making these lists are. Everyone that I've talked to who is old enough to have seen both Gretzky and Orr play always puts Orr above Gretzky. I'll admit I didn't get to see Orr play and I didn't see Gretzky until the end of his career. However, from all the people that I've heard from that have seen both play, regardless of records or awards, all of them seem to put Orr above Gretzky. I just bet a lot of the people here arguing having seen Orr play and most likely never saw prime Gretzky play which makes their arguments ridiculous.
There's nothing controversial or interesting about putting Wayne Gretzky first.
It's WAYNE GRETZKY.
The fact that everyone has to compare with him just makes it that much more obvious who the greatest player of all-time is.
And I don't even like Wayne all that much. But I'll give him credit where it's due.
Sure, I wasn't old enough to see Orr in his prime but I was certainly old enough to see Gretzky in his.
But if you want to go "ageist", then I guess Phantom Joe Malone is the greatest player of all-time.
I never would have expected to see Osgood make an appearance in this thread... he isn't even remotely close to a top 10 player in the period since 1995.
I don't quite understand why Kharlamov is often the default top Russian. There seems to be a big differene between the legend and his actual accomplishments.
He was the first Russian great, and was a symbol of the rise of USSR hockey. Similar to how the Rocket is often considered the greatest Hab ever because he symbolized the French-Canadian fight against discrimination in the 1960s, even though Beliveau and Harvey were probably better players.
Now, I really, really don't like him anymore, but Jaromir Jagr needs more consideration. If not for his stupid stind in Russia for 3 years and the affection of 2 1/2 half lockout, we're easily talking about the 2ns best scorer of all time at over 2000 points. Plus, he was a bull with some of the best hands the game has ever seen. He was SO dominant for many years and the only player to win a scoring title from 1981 to 2001 not named Gretzky or Lemieux (5 Art Ross titles plus 3 Lesters and a Hart).
Its not obvious to anyone that saw both Orr and Gretzky.
Well, maybe it is.
Meh, I'm also convinced that there is a phenomenon whereby those players that you followed most avidly in your youth or early adulthood tend to be the players that you glorify in your memory anyway.
This can make comparisons based on individual memories suspect as well.
I'm sure there are people who saw Richard in his prime who think he's better than Bobby Orr.
As it is, there aren't too many people on this site who remember the 1950s very well so you've got this pedestal of "I remember so and so in their prime and you can't" that begins with the Orr era.
It doesn't really bother me all that much, to be honest, the Orr vs. Gretzky thing, because it's always difficult to compare players in two different positions.
A goalie plays 60 minutes a game so should they be more prominently exhibited in top 10 lists given their impact on a shift-to-shift basis? There's no real established science for this.
However, I don't necessarily think that, because someone was alive to see Orr and Gretzky, that their opinion somehow puts the argument to rest.
I'm always interested to see where people put Hull. He had a stretch of time that was as great as anyone but some people put him outside the top 10. For me he's at #5.
I also like to see where people put Espo. I know he takes a knock for not being the best player on his team but his numbers are just that much better than everyone else during his time.
I'm always interested to see where people put Hull. He had a stretch of time that was as great as anyone but some people put him outside the top 10. For me he's at #5.
I also like to see where people put Espo. I know he takes a knock for not being the best player on his team but his numbers are just that much better than everyone else during his time.
Phil Esposito I'd likely put top 20, behind the other forwards: Clarke, Jagr, Lafleur, Messier, Trottier, Mikita (not that order).
Man, you never miss a chance to pimp a Red Wing, do you?
Two Cups as starter, three finals appearances, a second-team selection. Nobody would have batted an eyelash had Osgood won the Smythe in 2008 or 2009, and he would have been an acceptable winner in 1998 as well.
Let's also run the numbers.
13 goaltenders lost more games than Osgood; only three of them actually played more. Osgood had the best winning percentage of any goaltender who played a significant number of games. Osgood was behind only Brodeur in wins over the period, despite spending some time in a tandem or backup situation.
He had more playoff wins than anyone but Brodeur or Roy. Better playoff record than Hasek, Belfour, Brodeur, Luongo, or just about anyone else with any significant number of games.
Two Cups as starter, three finals appearances, a second-team selection. Nobody would have batted an eyelash had Osgood won the Smythe in 2008 or 2009, and he would have been an acceptable winner in 1998 as well.
Let's also run the numbers.
13 goaltenders lost more games than Osgood; only three of them actually played more. Osgood had the best winning percentage of any goaltender who played a significant number of games. Osgood was behind only Brodeur in wins over the period, despite spending some time in a tandem or backup situation.
He had more playoff wins than anyone but Brodeur or Roy. Better playoff record than Hasek, Belfour, Brodeur, Luongo, or just about anyone else with any significant number of games.
Congratulations, you have proven that Osgood played for good teams for a long time (He was great in the 2009 playoffs though).
I'm curious what the age of a lot of the posters making these lists are. Everyone that I've talked to who is old enough to have seen both Gretzky and Orr play always puts Orr above Gretzky. I'll admit I didn't get to see Orr play and I didn't see Gretzky until the end of his career. However, from all the people that I've heard from that have seen both play, regardless of records or awards, all of them seem to put Orr above Gretzky. I just bet a lot of the people here arguing having seen Orr play and most likely never saw prime Gretzky play which makes their arguments ridiculous.
That is my case actually. I grew up in the 70s and saw Orr who was above and beyond everybody else and I put him above Wayne. I figure most must have grown up in the 80s and beyond. Personaly I also put Mario above Wayne and people talk about records but I think too much emphasis is put around that. Wayne's run was more "showy", he was put of great teams, winning many cups and Mario was plagued by injuries and it plays a huge part in my opinion on people's perceptions. The Edmonton Oilers' run in the 80s was Epic and there's no going around that for people.
Meh, I'm also convinced that there is a phenomenon whereby those players that you followed most avidly in your youth or early adulthood tend to be the players that you glorify in your memory anyway.
This can make comparisons based on individual memories suspect as well.
I'm sure there are people who saw Richard in his prime who think he's better than Bobby Orr.
As it is, there aren't too many people on this site who remember the 1950s very well so you've got this pedestal of "I remember so and so in their prime and you can't" that begins with the Orr era.
It doesn't really bother me all that much, to be honest, the Orr vs. Gretzky thing, because it's always difficult to compare players in two different positions.
A goalie plays 60 minutes a game so should they be more prominently exhibited in top 10 lists given their impact on a shift-to-shift basis? There's no real established science for this.
However, I don't necessarily think that, because someone was alive to see Orr and Gretzky, that their opinion somehow puts the argument to rest.
It helps if they've seen both though. If I talk with a group of old guys and they mention that there was nothing like the Rocket even if others had more points than him, i'll like listen. Establishing greatness is more than looking at a bunch of records.
I'm always interested to see where people put Hull. He had a stretch of time that was as great as anyone but some people put him outside the top 10. For me he's at #5.
I also like to see where people put Espo. I know he takes a knock for not being the best player on his team but his numbers are just that much better than everyone else during his time.
I have him 13th just behind Jagr. He is rated fairly poorly by a lot of people compared to the type of numbers he put up. He set an NHL record 126 points in a year where Orr was still a 60 point player, that says something to me.
