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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Colorado, Detroit and New Jersey

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Old
11-20-2012, 10:01 AM
  #51
Johnny Engine
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
True.

But the 3 coaches were Jacques Lamaire, Larry Robinson & Pat Burns. Think there might be some similarity there?
One of those things is not like the others...

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11-20-2012, 10:09 AM
  #52
Dennis Bonvie
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One of those things is not like the others...
All bringing the Montreal system with them.

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11-20-2012, 10:32 AM
  #53
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Ok, I get what you're saying now.

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Old
11-20-2012, 10:39 AM
  #54
SoundwaveIsCharisma
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I always thought one of the reasons the Avs didn't win more was their insistence on hiring second rate coaches. They never went out (and still don't) to get that high profile, proven coach. Instead, they would hire complete randoms or from in house.

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11-20-2012, 11:30 AM
  #55
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
i never got that sense (in that i never saw how those were specifically "trap breaking" teams; seems like pittsburgh would have been the closest thing, though i don't think their strategy was to beat NJ so much as it was to keep jagr and sometimes mario happy).

but i'd love to hear about this. you obviously saw a lot more of the eastern conference than i did those years.
At the time, the way to beat the Devils would thought to be to get bigger and stronger and power through them. Toronto especially was constantly trying to "get tougher" to beat the Devils.

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Originally Posted by jack mullet View Post
NJ was always a head scratcher for me. as consistent as they were in the regular season, they were very inconsisten in the playoffs, at least by winning standards.

when they did actually get out of the first round though, and even this year this proved to be true, they usually go all the way, or lose in the finals.
Especially from 1997-1999, they just couldn't score in the playoffs. Jacques Lemaire took a lot of heat after 1997 and 1998 for having the team play playoff hockey from Day 1 of the regular season and burning them out by the time the playoffs started.

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Old
11-20-2012, 11:32 AM
  #56
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
All bringing the Montreal system with them.
All three coaches had different variations of the system (Larry Robinson basically used the mixed/offensive trap that Montreal used in the 1970s, while Lemaire used a more defensive version), but you're right in that they all came from the same place.

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11-20-2012, 11:44 AM
  #57
Rhiessan71
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
All three coaches had different variations of the system (Larry Robinson basically used the mixed/offensive trap that Montreal used in the 1970s, while Lemaire used a more defensive version), but you're right in that they all came from the same place.
Yep, they all came from Europe.
Bowman stole both the Trap concept and the Left Wing Lock concept from teams using them on the bigger ice in Europe.
Trap from the Russians I believe (although some argue they stole it from the Finn's) and the LWL from the Swedes.

There was a lot less pressure and money involved over there so coaches could try things more readily than in the NHL and there was more of a need for zone type defenses on the bigger ice.


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11-20-2012, 12:57 PM
  #58
jack mullet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
True.

But the 3 coaches were Jacques Lamaire, Larry Robinson & Pat Burns. Think there might be some similarity there?

Also, Lamoriello was at the helm throughout.

To me they were the best defensive team I've ever seen.
i would have to agree. i think they hold the record for fewest goals allowed in an 82 game season. having those D-men, plus marty in goal, its easy to see why

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11-23-2012, 02:31 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by jack mullet View Post
i would have to agree. i think they hold the record for fewest goals allowed in an 82 game season.
The Blues were on pace to break that record this year, but they fell off in their last few games and ended up one GA away. They really looked like they were going to finish with a sub-2.00 GAA.

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11-23-2012, 03:07 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
i never got that sense (in that i never saw how those were specifically "trap breaking" teams; seems like pittsburgh would have been the closest thing, though i don't think their strategy was to beat NJ so much as it was to keep jagr and sometimes mario happy).
The Pens weren't really in a position to build anything in the late 90s. They traded away Zubov for Kevin Hatcher to keep Mario happy. I don't see any good reason why they traded Straka, Naslund, Glen Murray, etc. Their organization was in disarray at the top: difficult to sign big FAs when you're teetering on bankruptcy and deferring salaries (including Mario's when he wasn't even playing), and difficult to build from within through bad drafts and bad trades. I don't think they were trying to build a team to beat the Devils, but rather stave off bankruptcy and just make the playoffs somehow (the latter helping the former). Then a rested Mario came back in 2001 and combined with Jagr, the KLS line and the latest in a revolving door of goalies (Hedberg w/ 9 NHL games entering the '01 playoffs) to make the ECF. They were completely out of their league there against one of the best in a series of well-oiled N.J. machines, and their chances were slim to none, even if Jagr hadn't been playing with one arm at that point.

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11-23-2012, 03:44 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Sadekuuro View Post
The Blues were on pace to break that record this year, but they fell off in their last few games and ended up one GA away. They really looked like they were going to finish with a sub-2.00 GAA.
...they did.

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11-23-2012, 07:43 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
...they did.
No they didn't. 165 GA in 82 games is one goal over.

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11-23-2012, 08:07 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Sadekuuro View Post
No they didn't. 165 GA in 82 games is one goal over.
You might wanna check NHL.com again. I'm reading 155 for 1.89...

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11-23-2012, 09:36 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Defense and depth were Colorado's achilles-heals.

Detroit and NJ had loaded bluelines. Ozolinsh was a high-risk, high-reward guy but ultimately, the risk took over and he was shipped out. He never developed an all-round game like Sergei Zubov did. And while Foote was an excellent shut-down guy, I don't think he was quite as dominant as Derian Hatcher. Colorado didn't really "fix" their defense until they brought Bourque and Blake in, and by then Sakic and Roy were aging and Forsberg was injury-prone.

Depth was also a major problem for Colorado moving forward - they had a ton of depth from the Lindros trade, but they traded it away at deadline deal after deadline deal. (and to be fair, the deals for Bourque and Blake paid off). But when Colorado won in 2001, they were the first top-heavy team to win the Cup since I don't know when, the 1992 Penguins?

I also don't think Colorado had the coaching of the other teams, at least not Detroit and Dallas, who had Bowman and Hitchcock.
Those trades with Calgary killed them long term. They lost each one of them. Fleury cost them a top four defenseman in Regehr, a serviceable third liner in Corbet, and a half-decent tough guy in Belak. Then they tried to make up for the loss of Regehr by trading for Derek Morris, but that cost them a clutch-scorer and leader in Drury and a top notch 4th line center/penalty killer in Yelle (Shantz was worthless, and Yelle>McAmmond). At least trading Morris away netted them the pick that became Statsny. Then they followed that up trading Tanguay away for Jordan Leopold, who they then managed to turn into spare parts. Absolutely murdered in that trio of trades.

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11-23-2012, 10:42 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
You might wanna check NHL.com again. I'm reading 155 for 1.89...
This is probably the correct number. One thing even I forget sometimes, is that shootout goals appear in the GF & GA totals for each team on HR.com (and possibly other sites).

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11-24-2012, 12:45 AM
  #66
Sadekuuro
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
You might wanna check NHL.com again. I'm reading 155 for 1.89...
Wow, if that's accurate then not only do I stand corrected, but St. Louis destroyed New Jersey's '04 record (164 GA, 2.00 GAA).

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11-24-2012, 01:17 AM
  #67
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I think it's interesting when comparing the three teams.

Detroit lacked consistent goaltending to bring them a legitimate dynasty, Colorado lacked defensive depth for a legitimate dynasty, and New Jersey lacked top end offense for a legitimate dynasty. If Quebec hadn't had moved to Colorado and had to gradually remove pieces due to financial constraints, it makes you wonder what would have happened in this era.

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