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Are the fastest NHL skaters really all that fast?

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Old
11-20-2012, 12:30 PM
  #26
sanityplease
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Originally Posted by Yellowstone View Post
Only a few of you think that this might be a legitimate finding. One suggested that most NHLer's are within a half second of each other in this test and that's my point. Where's the guy that crushes every one else? I think in straight line skating (with but 2 turns) the playing field is leveled... including for the kids.

The camera angle is irrelovant... the important factors are the common starting point, the same turning points, the same distances and the same finish point. That's how the test was done.

The video was presented in real time so it's a simple matter to do the side by side comparison and that's what is important.

Lastly, IF you were to accept that the test was valid (I can't prove that, I just know it to be the case), then can you not accept that there are kids that can straight line skate with NHLers. These kids ARE NOT future stars period. They're just capable of similar speed in a very narrow skill set... straight line skating.

Someone made the great point that the NHLer can maintain the highest of speed doing the most acrobatic of manuevers... and that's why they are NHL quality skaters, not because they can simply skate fast in one direction (as can many kids). Maybe the NHL skating skills test should be modified to better demonstrate how remarkable the NHL skater truly is.
It's not that hard to test your theory. Get out your tape measure, see if your arena's ice surface is 200'x85', set up some cones @ the proper locations & time more kids.

On the other hand, I don't see anything revolutionary about finding some quick skaters who weigh 100lbs. & there are other nhl skill tests.

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11-20-2012, 12:35 PM
  #27
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I used to train in the summer with Milan Lucic, Brent Seabrook, and Troy Brouwer (not exactly the league's best skaters but hey...). In a straight line, I was faster than all of them (but noticeably worse at everything else, comparatively). The difference was that these players played at that speed all the time and could make high-end plays at full speed.

Skating fast in a straight line is good and all but it's one of many skills. Just because you have NHL speed, doesn't mean you have NHL hands, NHL vision, an NHL shot, NHL passing, etc. etc. and can utilize all of those skills at full speed.

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11-20-2012, 12:35 PM
  #28
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NHL quality speed and NHL quality skating are two very different things.

I can only speak anecdotally; I've always been one of the fastest skaters on any team I've played for, and last year I had the chance to fool around with some NCAA-caliber guys.

My north-south speed wasn't much different than theirs, but the sheer speed at which they do everything else and make decisions on the fly was humbling, to say the least. Their lateral movement and agility in tight spaces just blew me away. And those, I think, are the abilities that matter more at a pro level.

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11-20-2012, 12:38 PM
  #29
wKetch22
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Im going to go ahead and say the rink is smaller until you can literally prove otherwise...

Most low level rinks are smaller. When my old high schools hockey team played at UNH's arena for the playoffs I remember my brother telling me how much bigger it was. I mean you can see that with your own eyes..

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11-20-2012, 12:43 PM
  #30
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Hagelin's time in the final was 13.2 seconds. http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=76951#Fastest_Skater

The kid's time in the video was 14.7 s according to my phone's stopwatch.

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11-20-2012, 12:46 PM
  #31
SERE 24
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That kid is not a good skater and that comparison is extremely flawed (how do you know the cones are the exact right distance apart, lengthwise or widthwise? Also the whole "NA size rink is NA size rink" is only partially true; there is plenty of small variance in rinks that are not used by NHL teams. 99% of rinks are, yes, roughly the same dimensions, but trust me when I tell you they are not all truly the same. Some are wider or narrower, some are shorter.) but you're still not terribly off in your hypothesis. That kid's a very novice skater though and, make absolutely no mistake, Hagelin or Greening would both skate circles around him while laughing and exerting little effort. The level of edge work and the ease and control is on an entirely different plain. Not to mention they simply are faster.

However, as a much better example. When I was about 14 (perhaps even younger, this was 12ish years ago) I played for the LI Gulls and myself as well as a few teammates (including Tim Kunes who was eventually drafted by Carolina, but never signed) got to do a skills competition with several Islanders during the intermission. Three of us skated in the fastest skater event against three Islanders. This was the one event where we were all extremely close to the Islanders who skated and myself and Kunes both were faster than 2/3 of the Islanders who skated. This was a single timed lap around Nassau Coliseum. Now, none of the Islanders we skated against were exactly speed demons (I think it was Martinek, Hunter and Isbister, or something like that... not exactly Grabner or Hagelin), but they were NHL skaters and we were using identical metrics to time the laps.

So it is true that if you have very good skating technique and edge work speed is something that you can have at a very early point in your development. It's the muscle endurance to do it shift in and out, every night and the explosiveness to constantly stop and start against the best in the world, as well as stand up to the grinding in the corners without becoming fatigued that has to be added to your young legs in order to be able skate that way at the highest levels. Also, as you continue to add weight and muscle to your frame, from that point as a 14 year old, your challenge is to add size and strength without losing speed, agility and flexibility. Being fast at 5'7 130lbs is a lot easier than being fast at 6'2 230lbs. For me personally, skating is the only thing I'm good at when it comes to hockey, but I know that my skating is very strong and I have little doubt that I could skate with the middle speed guys of the league pretty easily. But that's all I could do. My friend Tim didn't make it to the NHL, but like I said, having been drafted by the Hurricanes, he clearly could have skated with NHLers as well (and did so while he was at Boston College) but just didn't have the whole package to make the last jump. I do believe, however, that skating were among his strengths on his HF scouting report.


Last edited by SERE 24: 11-20-2012 at 12:57 PM.
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11-20-2012, 12:53 PM
  #32
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I'm inclined to agree with you, but come on, post a video of a better skater than that! A lot of players from AAA Bantam/Midget are good enough skaters to be in the NHL, but as another poster mentioned, just because you can skate really fast doesn't mean you have the tools to be an NHL player...you need to be able to combine your speed with shooting/passing/your brain, etc.

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11-20-2012, 01:01 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Falcons93 View Post
I'm inclined to agree with you, but come on, post a video of a better skater than that! A lot of players from AAA Bantam/Midget are good enough skaters to be in the NHL, but as another poster mentioned, just because you can skate really fast doesn't mean you have the tools to be an NHL player...you need to be able to combine your speed with shooting/passing/your brain, etc.
Much like being able to run really fast doesn't make you a NFL wide receiver.

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11-20-2012, 01:03 PM
  #34
SERE 24
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
Much like being able to run really fast doesn't make you a NFL wide receiver.
It's even more than that. Being able to skate FAST doesn't even make you a GOOD skater. That kid in the video is truly not a good skater. If he came down to the pick up group I play with, people would be laughing because all of us have played college/junior/etc. Speed doesn't even mean you have good edge work, balance, agility, etc. Heck, skating fast doesn't even mean you can stop and start explosively/consistently.

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11-20-2012, 01:33 PM
  #35
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You could make the same short course in any sport... Swimming, biking, skiing, whatever. If the course only takes about 13 seconds to finish, no one is going to 'crush' the rest of them. A half of a second is more than you think in an event like this one.

If 50 cross country skiers from the world's elite would challenge eachother on a super short track, where the winner finishes in exactly 13 seconds... And the 50th guy finishes in exactly 14 seconds... Would you find that differential odd?


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11-20-2012, 01:43 PM
  #36
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They were tied at the 2nd turn, at 1 minute into your video the NHL players clearly reach the first turn before your kid. But then your kid beats both NHL players to the blueline so wait this 14 year old who doesnt skate that well and its his first time in 6 months has a faster top end speed then these 2 NHL players with a much shorter strider, and a much slower stride? (1:04)

I hope your not to shocked when you find out the rink your on is considerably smaller then 85x200 but I honestly expect you will be. I am sure you can make a 14 year old run the 100m race extremely fast on a 75m track.


Last edited by Playerwinner: 11-20-2012 at 01:49 PM.
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11-20-2012, 01:44 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellowstone View Post
So, I put together this short video to support my sense that many kids have NHL skating speed. I know that sounds crazy. But I think that, for some reason, skating NHL-fast can be accomplished by a lot of kids and some very young ones at that. I'm sure that many of you have been to rinks and seen these young kids fly. Well, this past September, I thought it might be time to test a kid on the exact same speed skating course used by the fastest NHLers at the 2012 Skills Competition.

The Results... the kid did very well and this kid hadn't been on the ice in 6 months.

How can this be? I suspect that skating is not like running where the fastest NFLers would absolutely blow away young kids. For some reason, I believe that skating with NHL-speed is not all that difficult. This does not of course mean that these kids are (or ever will be) NHL prospects. For example, it might just mean that some of these kids should look into short track skating.

So here's the video... and if you doubt me (as you should) and if you're a coach, then simply go to the rink with your fastest skaters and do these time trials and then judge for yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXgRiM5SL7k
Once shared an ice surface with Darius Kasparaitis, who wasn't noted for speed. Again, later, with Billy Tibbetts, who was a goon. You really can't have any concept of how well hockey professionals get around the ice until you share an ice surface with them. The difference is astounding.

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11-20-2012, 01:51 PM
  #38
SERE 24
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So, not to be inflammatory towards the OP, but being that it looks like all of the posts he's made at HFboards have been in this thread, how much do people want to wager he is the kid in the video?

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11-20-2012, 01:55 PM
  #39
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I highly doubt a kid is even near as fast as NHL best, but as saying goes there is always that kid in china that is worlds best at something, there probably is a kid somewhere thats faster than Hagelin, has better stickhandling than Datsyuk or better skating than Karlsson.

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11-20-2012, 01:56 PM
  #40
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Sorry guys...

I'm going to take down the video.

My point was very simple and was not well received.

I suspect that some day, one of you guys will dupicate this test and come back and say "Hey, there are kids that can compete in the NHL straight-line skating competition".

That was my simple point.

So if kids can ring up these numbers, then the NHL skills speed skating test is not very impressive. The NHL competition, as it is now designed, does not showcase the NHLer's true skating skills.

Also, the next time I'm at this rink, I will confirm that the face-off-dot to face-off-dot distance is consistant with an NHL rink (should be 132 feet)... but still, I doubt that even that would satisfy some of you.

Oh well, it was a lively discussion... while it lasted.

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11-20-2012, 01:59 PM
  #41
M Gaz
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That kid is faster than me on skates, no doubt, but his skating technique isn't anywhere near that of an NHLer. But, he's still a better skater than Doug Glatt.

And while he may have been only a second off from Hagelin's time, I doubt the kid could skate like that all game.

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11-20-2012, 02:08 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Noob616 View Post
Not true. A lot of minor hockey rinks are different sizes.
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Originally Posted by Valic View Post
You are funny.

All ice surfaces are not created equal some the rinks I played in as a kid were half the size of an NHL ice surface.

Hell teams in the WHL didn't even always have the same rink size as recently as last year.

http://www.heraldnet.com/article/201...ORTS/710309902
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
Yeah sure, and all 'pints' of beer are 20 oz. Come on, there isn't a regulatory board that forces rink compliance across the country.
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Originally Posted by Skobel24 View Post
You couldn't be more wrong.
I apologize that I'm not aware of how things are done in the middle of no where. In the GTA.... rinks are the same size unless you're playing on international sized ice.

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11-20-2012, 02:14 PM
  #43
SERE 24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellowstone View Post
I'm going to take down the video.

My point was very simple and was not well received.

I suspect that some day, one of you guys will dupicate this test and come back and say "Hey, there are kids that can compete in the NHL straight-line skating competition".

That was my simple point.

So if kids can ring up these numbers, then the NHL skills speed skating test is not very impressive. The NHL competition, as it is now designed, does not showcase the NHLer's true skating skills.

Also, the next time I'm at this rink, I will confirm that the face-off-dot to face-off-dot distance is consistant with an NHL rink (should be 132 feet)... but still, I doubt that even that would satisfy some of you.

Oh well, it was a lively discussion... while it lasted.
There's one problem with this logic. I'm pretty sure we are unanimously still more impressed with the Hagelin/Greening video than this kid who can barely skate and we're being told can keep up, and therefore, it is impressive. Just because you shoot an amateur video of a very mediocre kid skating the same event and claim that he was "right there with Hagelin" doesn't mean anyone else agrees. The video does not conclusively prove that your claim is true, nor is the comparison done very scientifically, so as to provide the irrefutable proof you feel it does. Watching the videos, it's clear that in the NHL skills you are watching two elite, top notch skaters FLY around the course. Watching the kid it is clear that you are watching a kid who does not play highly competitive hockey, use his jerky, ugly stride to skate his hardest around the same course. One IS impressive, the other isn't.

One, none of us seem to believe, with our own eyes, that he was going nearly as fast as the NHLers. Two, all of us seem to be able to identify him as a poor or beginner/novice skater. Three, being able to skate somewhat fast in that event and being able to do it with the grace and fluidity of the NHL players are two completely different things. Oh, and he wasn't anywhere near as fast, did we cover that one? You're really, quite simply, vastly overestimating that kid/your own/who ever else you skate with's ability if you think you wouldn't all get burned silly by those NHL players.


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Old
11-20-2012, 02:19 PM
  #44
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I apologize that I'm not aware of how things are done in the middle of no where. In the GTA.... rinks are the same size unless you're playing on international sized ice.
That's simply not true. No matter where you are, non NHL-inspected rinks are going to have variance in their measurements. They may be 83 feet wide and 192 feet long (what one might call "essentially" standard size, but not exact). They might be the exact 200 feet long but have 13 feet behind the net instead of 11. Also, the configuration of the rink has changed over time. The distribution used to be 10/60/60/60/10 and it is now 11/64/50/64/11 so has every single rink out there moved their goal lines forward a foot and changed the dimensions of their neutral zones and re-calibrated the locations of all of their faceoff dots, etc? Only in the NHL/AHL/NCAA/etc where the rinks are inspected for competition can you claim that all rinks are EXACTLY NHL dimensions.


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Old
11-20-2012, 02:25 PM
  #45
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That's simply not true. No matter where you are, non NHL-inspected rinks are going to have variance in their measurements. They may be 83 feet wide and 192 feet long (what one might call "essentially" standard size, but not exact). They might be the exact 200 feet long but have 13 feet behind the net instead of 11. Also, the configuration of the rink has changed over time. The distribution used to be 10/60/60/60/10 and it is now 11/64/50/64/11 so has every single rink out there moved their goal lines forward a foot and changed the dimensions of their neutral zones? Only in the NHL/AHL/NCAA/etc where the rinks are inspected for competition can you claim that all rinks are EXACTLY NHL dimensions.
They're all standard sized NA rinks in the GTA. There is no difference to them unless you want to measure them all and say that one may be a foot short or something. They're all measured and built to match the standard 200 by 85.

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11-20-2012, 02:25 PM
  #46
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When I skated inline I could skate very fast and continue to skate fast if I hit the angle to "go around the net" correctly.

If I didn't, I'd plow into the boards/fence (if I was tearing up a BB court in the winter).

Couldn't do anything else. So clearly I'm ready for the NHL.

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11-20-2012, 02:36 PM
  #47
SERE 24
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They're all standard sized NA rinks in the GTA. There is no difference to them unless you want to measure them all and say that one may be a foot short or something. They're all measured and built to match the standard 200 by 85.
I could say the same thing about the rinks by me. It's still not true. Why don't you just allow for the fact that you're not as informed on this one as you might have thought and accept that you may not have realized, which is not a big deal at all, that it is virtually impossible that they are all perfectly 200x85'. And, like I said, even if they are all within a few feet, are you telling me every single rink in the GTA updated their dimensions, perfectly, to accommodate the new measurements behind the nets, to the ends of the zones, etc? Because moving the net a foot forward, moves the faceoff dot proportionately forward. Expanding the neutral zone four feet changes the position of the faceoff dot even more. And not just, oh, the zone is four feet longer so move the dot four feet. So are you telling me that you know for a fact that every rink, uniformly, has altered their measurements perfectly, on top of the fact that they are all perfect, carbon copies in original dimesnions? Why is it so shocking or hard to accept that certain rinks may have only left room for 9 feet behind the nets or or some such, changing the dimensions to 85x196. I've never been arguing that there are vast differences in the dimensions, but the number of people who IMMEDIATELY pointed out that virtually no public rinks have perfectly uniform dimensions should be an indicator to you that I'm speaking the truth.

EDIT: And never mind. We're arguing over feet here and it's pointless. I mean, I don't give a damn if you believe all your rinks are a perfect 200ft and if you can't accept that some might be, you know, 195ft, it's such a silly and petty difference that it's not worth continuing the conversation. The point wasn't brought up to imply that your rink is somehow inferior or something; the point was that if the rink in question isn't perfect not only in it's physical dimensions but in the layout of the faceoff dots and goal lines, etc. than any measurement of speed form point A to point B, against an NHL player, is invalid.


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Old
11-20-2012, 02:37 PM
  #48
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Skating at an NHL level isn't godly or anything.

Its what they do while they skate that makes them godly.

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11-20-2012, 02:38 PM
  #49
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Don't think so. We to the Rangers - King game I'm Stockholm last year. For example that explovsiness in Gaborik's first three strides or so is just something I've never seen before.

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11-20-2012, 02:46 PM
  #50
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Skating at an NHL level isn't godly or anything.

Its what they do while they skate that makes them godly.
Still, there's agility, control, ability to make turns, taking correct angles, *being able to take the body without killing someone*, etc...

I didn't see the video but I have a good idea of what it is (loops), and it doesn't tell you a damn thing about being able to hockey skate.

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