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Norris Trophy Pilfering '98 vs '11

View Poll Results: Who was robbed more?
Lidstrom in '98 47 68.12%
Weber in '11 22 31.88%
Voters: 69. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-20-2012, 12:28 PM
  #76
overpass
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
Some data to consider:

Personal even-strength GAA, 1998

defenseman TGA PPGA ESGA ESTOI ES GAA
stevens 71 30 41 1521 1.62
pronger 84 28 56 1721 1.95
nummine 84 38 46 1411 1.96
murphy 73 24 49 1466 2.01
hatcher 62 16 46 1340 2.06
bourque 87 26 61 1695 2.16
zubov 58 13 45 1220 2.21
lidstrom 75 19 56 1459 2.3
niedermayer 71 14 57 1375 2.49
chelios 112 38 74 1643 2.7
macinnis 78 17 61 1235 2.96
svehla 107 36 71 1364 3.12
blake 111 36 75 1427 3.15
leetch 120 25 95 1525 3.74

This shows the personal GAA for each defensemen at even strength (technically I haven't backed out any goals against that the defensemen were on the ice for while on the powerplay - not sure if this is material).

Personal PK GAA, 1998

defenseman TGA PPGA PKTOI PK GAA
lidstrom 75 19 338 3.37
hatcher 62 16 240 4
macinnis 78 17 239 4.27
murphy 73 24 321 4.49
niedermayer 71 14 187 4.49
stevens 71 30 367 4.9
leetch 120 25 305 4.92
zubov 58 13 146 5.34
pronger 84 28 298 5.64
bourque 87 26 273 5.71
chelios 112 38 374 6.1
blake 111 36 325 6.65
nummine 84 38 342 6.67
svehla 107 36 281 7.69

Lidstrom has almost as good a personal GAA while on the penalty kill compared to Blake at even strength! That has to be a big argument in Lidstrom's favour. Let's not blame the difference on goaltending either. At even strength, both teams had virtually the same save percentage (91.9% for LA, 91.7% for Detroit). The Kings' goalies actually have a better save percentage while on the penalty kill (88.7% for the Kings, 88.1% for the Wings). So the huge disparity in their GAAs can't be explained due to goaltending.

I'm results-oriented and it seems clear that Lidstrom was better at keeping the puck out of his team's net, at even-strength (Lidstrom was 27% more effective) and on the PK (49% more effective). As I showed above, the difference in the numbers can't be attributed to goaltending. Can someone make a case that the difference is explained due to their roles (did Blake consistently get tougher defensive assignments?) or teammates (it's clear that Lidstom played on a better team, but does this explain the disparity?)

I'll be honest, for a long time I've rejected the "Lidstrom was robbed of the 1998 Norris" position as revisionist nonsense. Now that I've done some digging, it's clear that Lidstrom has a legitimate claim - he led all defensemen in scoring, was extraordinary on the penalty kill, and played a lot (#5 ice time in the league) on an excellent team. Lidstrom's main weakness was even-strength defense (his personal GAA is mediocre despite playing on an excellent team), but I'm not sure if Blake makes up any ground in this category (it's clear that he falls behind statistically, but I'll keep an open mind in case someone can argue that Blake's teammates are so poor that, after taking the context into account, he actually performed at a higher level than Lidstrom defensively).

Does anybody else have other interpretations?
If icetime and GAA point to Lidstrom over Blake, they may also put Pronger and/or Stevens over Lidstrom, as long as PP contributions aren't a deal-breaker.

One more relevant stat: minor penalties taken. Pronger took 65, Blake took 37, Stevens took 25, Lidstrom took 9. I'd want to see how many were coincidental and how many actually put the team down a man, but it's an advantage for Lidstrom that he could get the results he did while taking so few penalties.

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Old
11-20-2012, 12:35 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
I'm not downplaying anything, I'm correcting for exaggeration.
Lids was a defesnive D-man than could QB a PP.
He was NOT an offensive D-man.
He was also a coaches dream, hence Scotty Bowman citing the word "perfect" along with his name. Give it a rest already.

You would never focus this much energy on Mario Lemieux's lack of a defensive game or criticize him for floating this much. I adored Lemieux but you know what, he and his teams would have had far more success (winning!) if he played a more all around game. He often floated and left defense up to everyone else. Even though he was probably the most gifted player ever offensively and was capable of playing an all around game he rarely did. His teams should have won more cups and had more success than they did. Defense is just as important as offense and Lidstrom did what it took to be successful and win and did it amazingly well.

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Old
11-20-2012, 12:47 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by danincanada View Post
He was also a coaches dream, hence Scotty Bowman citing the word "perfect" along with his name. Give it a rest already.
I got some rather breaking news for ya man...every D-man in the top 20 was a coaches dream.

Quote:
You would never focus this much energy on Mario Lemieux's lack of a defensive game or criticize him for floating this much. I adored Lemieux but you know what, he and his teams would have had far more success (winning!) if he played a more all around game. He often floated and left defense up to everyone else. Even though he was probably the most gifted player ever offensively and was capable of playing an all around game he rarely did. His teams should have won more cups and had more success than they did. Defense is just as important as offense and Lidstrom did what it took to be successful and win and did it amazingly well.
Lidstrom does NOT have a defensive advantage over Bourque or Orr and none at all over Harvey(less actually as Harvey also had physical tools) that is any where remotely close to the offensive advantage that Mario Lemieux had over his peers.

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11-20-2012, 12:50 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
I got some rather breaking news for ya man...every D-man in the top 20 was a coaches dream.
It's off-topic, but Paul Coffey was like the opposite of a coach's dream. And without getting into the dressing rooms, it's extremely rare to see coaches praise their defensemen as much as they do Lidstrom. For example, as talented as he is, I doubt anyone would refer to Pronger as "a coach's dream."

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Old
11-20-2012, 12:53 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
It's off-topic, but Paul Coffey was like the opposite of a coach's dream. And without getting into the dressing rooms, it's extremely rare to see coaches praise their defensemen as much as they do Lidstrom. For example, as talented as he is, I doubt anyone would refer to Pronger as "a coach's dream."
Heh, ok, fair enough.
Lets keep it to who Lidstrom is being compared to, say the top 5 then.

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11-20-2012, 12:59 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Lidstrom does NOT have a defensive advantage over Bourque or Orr and none at all over Harvey(less actually as Harvey also had physical tools) that is any where remotely close to the offensive advantage that Mario Lemieux had over his peers.
Lidstrom's defensive advantage over those 3 is greater than you realize or want to admit. Bourque often had to water-ski after opposing forwards skated around him and was simply not as good as Lidstrom defensively, Orr got caught up ice far more than anyone wants to admit, and Harvey played in an all Canadian league with a shallow talent pool.

Mario had all the talent in the world, anyone could see that, but he often took the easy way out and focused on offense too much and floated. This cost his team success at times. He was often criticised for it during his career and now all people seem to remember is the great moments he had. Yet I don't think I'll ever hear you barrate him as a player because people forget that he did indeed float and only focus on offense for most of his career.

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11-20-2012, 01:16 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danincanada View Post
Lidstrom's defensive advantage over those 3 is greater than you realize or want to admit. Bourque often had to water-ski after opposing forwards skated around him and was simply not as good as Lidstrom defensively, Orr got caught up ice far more than anyone wants to admit, and Harvey played in an all Canadian league with a shallow talent pool.
And yet every measurable stat shows that Bourque and especially Orr were both more effective overall than Lidstrom was.
Any defensive advantage Lidstrom has over Bourque and Orr is downed out rather quickly by their offense, puck possession and game control.
And dude, there were only 6 teams in Harvey's day and you can't punish him for not being able to play against what wasn't around yet and weren't good enough yet anyway.
A 6 team all Canadian league is NOT a shallow talent pool. They were the top 120 or so players in the world at the time and he didn't get nights where he was playing expansion/far weaker teams.
He was facing Gordie Howe and Bobby Hull 14 times a season EACH, not once or twice a season like Lidstrom faced Lemieux or Jagr or Crosby.



Quote:
Mario had all the talent in the world, anyone could see that, but he often took the easy way out and focused on offense too much and floated. This cost his team success at times. He was often criticised for it during his career and now all people seem to remember is the great moments he had. Yet I don't think I'll ever hear you barrate him as a player because people forget that he did indeed float and only focus on offense for most of his career.
Hence the reason that despite being IMO the most purely talented player in the history of the game, he's only ranked 4th all-time.


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 11-20-2012 at 01:36 PM.
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Old
11-20-2012, 01:29 PM
  #83
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If Weber's next season is as good as last year, I'll consider him a top 400 player all time.

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Old
11-20-2012, 01:54 PM
  #84
danincanada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
And yet every measurable stat shows that Bourque and especially Orr were both more effective overall than Lidstrom was.
Any defensive advantage Lidstrom has over Bourque and Orr is downed out rather quickly by their offense, puck possession and game control.
And dude, there were only 6 teams in Harvey's day and you can't punish him for not being able to play against what wasn't around yet and weren't good enough yet anyway.
A 6 team all Canadian league is NOT a shallow talent pool. They were the top 120 or so players in the world at the time and he didn't get nights where he was playing expansion/far weaker teams.
He was facing Gordie Howe and Bobby Hull 14 times a season EACH, not once or twice a season like Lidstrom faced Lemieux or Jagr or Crosby.
Bourque's playoff statistics don't show he was more effective than Lidstrom. You know, crunch time when you win Stanley Cups? His regular season stats are skewed by playing in the high scoring 80's and in a non fully integrated league void of players from the other hockey power at that time, Russia.

Lidstrom went head to head against Lindros, Crosby, Sakic, and Forsberg, among others in playoff series and faired very well.

I can't punish Harvey for playing in the O6 but we should certainly keep in mind that it was an all Canadian league for the most part at a time when hockey still had a lot of growing to do in Canada. You can only keep denying this for so long until it will just sound too absurd to ignore.

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11-20-2012, 02:00 PM
  #85
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Less personal attacks / remarks.

I'm not going to say it again.

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Old
11-20-2012, 02:17 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danincanada View Post
Bourque's playoff statistics don't show he was more effective than Lidstrom.
Actually, they do.
Bourque's numbers when he was on the ice compared to when he was off the ice are much greater than Lidstrom's numbers for the same.
Lidstrom made his team better but not by nearly the degree that Bourque made his better.


Quote:
You know, crunch time when you win Stanley Cups? His regular season stats are skewed by playing in the high scoring 80's and in a non fully integrated league void of players from the other hockey power at that time, Russia.
And Lidstrom's defensive numbers aren't skewed by playing in the low scoring DPE? Riiiight.
The Russians came over after 1989 btw. Bourque faced your "fully integrated league" for half of his career, won 2 of his Norris, was runner up 4 more times and 3rd twice during as well as 6 First team all-star nods and 2 2nd team nods in those 11 years.

Quote:
Lidstrom went head to head against Lindros, Crosby, Sakic, and Forsberg, among others in playoff series and faired very well.
Even all those guys combined, it's no where even remotely close to the frequency that Harvey went up against Howe and Hull EACH per season.


Quote:
I can't punish Harvey for playing in the O6 but we should certainly keep in mind that it was an all Canadian league for the most part at a time when hockey still had a lot of growing to do in Canada. You can only keep denying this for so long until it will just sound too absurd to ignore.
What do you honestly think is harder to do?
Facing those very top end players a dozen or so times a season total or facing those very top end players 14 times EACH per season + playoffs?
Hmmmm....I wonder how Lidstrom's defensive numbers survive facing Gretzky and Lemieux 14 times EACH a season.


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 11-20-2012 at 02:31 PM.
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Old
11-20-2012, 02:57 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
And Lidstrom's defensive numbers aren't skewed by playing in the low scoring DPE? Riiiight.
The Russians came over after 1989 btw. Bourque faced your "fully integrated league" for half of his career, won 2 of his Norris, was runner up 4 more times and 3rd twice during as well as 6 First team all-star nods and 2 2nd team nods in those 11 years.
Only half his career, which was my point.

"Defensive numbers" are highly subjective. I watched Lidstrom shut down and downright dominate forwards for too many years to care what statistics would even show. I wish I could see how he'd fair against Mario and Wayne because I feel he'd do better than anyone else did because he could think the game defensively like they did offensively. In fact, Lidstrom is Gretzky except he did it on the defensive side of the game instead of offense, although he was great in that area too. He didn't need to be physical, rarely took penalties, out thought everyone, and strived to be the best like Wayne did. Lidstrom's hockey IQ was up there with Gretzky's but in a less noticable way unless you were really watching.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
What do you honestly think is harder to do?
Facing those very top end players a dozen or so times a season total or facing those very top end players 14 times EACH per season + playoffs?
Hmmmm....I wonder how Lidstrom's defensive numbers survive facing Gretzky and Lemieux 14 times EACH a season.
I'd rather play in a league that draws from a much smaller talent pool no matter how many teams because it would provide a better opportunity to be the best player or in this case best defenseman.

Wonder all you want, Lidstrom showed what he could do aginst the world's best during playoff series in a fully integrated league several times with great success.


This has already been beaten to death several times and I'm not going to conivince you and you're not going to convince me.

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Old
11-20-2012, 03:05 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
See, that's what I want, figures going back to 91/92.

I am very interested to see Lidstrom TOI break downs from 91/92-92/93.
I have a real sneaking suspicion that McCrimmon, Chaisson, Howe and Konstantinov were doing a lot of the heavy lifting for Detroit those two seasons.
Estimated TOI stats for the Red Wings' Top 4 Dmen from '91-'92 to '96-'97...

96-97
Lidstrom: 28.037
Murphy: 23.421
Konstantinov: 23.199
Fetisov: 20.183

95-96
Lidstrom: 25.452
Coffey: 22.380
Konstantinov: 22.037
Fetisov: 18.561

94-95

Coffey: 29.412
Lidstrom: 23.780
Fetisov: 21.918
Konstantinov: 20.219

93-94
Coffey: 25.381
Lidstrom: 25.135
Chiasson: 22.776
Konstantinov: 20.573

92-93
Chiasson: 26.621
Lidstrom: 22.214
Coffey: 22.050
Konstantinov: 19.584

91-92
Chiasson: 24.437
Lidstrom: 23.455
McCrimmon: 21.730
Konstantinov: 21.503

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Old
11-20-2012, 03:44 PM
  #89
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Lidstrom was definitely robbed more. I don't even think Weber was robbed, he had 48 points and played next to Suter.

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Old
11-20-2012, 04:21 PM
  #90
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Definitely Lidstrom in 1998.

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11-20-2012, 04:33 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
And yet every measurable stat shows that Bourque and especially Orr were both more effective overall than Lidstrom was.
Any defensive advantage Lidstrom has over Bourque and Orr is downed out rather quickly by their offense, puck possession and game control.
And dude, there were only 6 teams in Harvey's day and you can't punish him for not being able to play against what wasn't around yet and weren't good enough yet anyway.
A 6 team all Canadian league is NOT a shallow talent pool. They were the top 120 or so players in the world at the time and he didn't get nights where he was playing expansion/far weaker teams.
He was facing Gordie Howe and Bobby Hull 14 times a season EACH, not once or twice a season like Lidstrom faced Lemieux or Jagr or Crosby.
First you say Bourque and Orr is better defensively and then they are not but their other skills outweights it. Im a bit excited what your next argument is going to be now that we have TOI for Lids ^^

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11-20-2012, 05:04 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
First you say Bourque and Orr is better defensively and then they are not but their other skills outweights it. Im a bit excited what your next argument is going to be now that we have TOI for Lids ^^
You definitely need to re-read what I actually said and those are estimated time on ice numbers.

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11-20-2012, 06:36 PM
  #93
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98, Lidstrom.

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11-20-2012, 07:30 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Actually, they do.
Bourque's numbers when he was on the ice compared to when he was off the ice are much greater than Lidstrom's numbers for the same.
Lidstrom made his team better but not by nearly the degree that Bourque made his better.
We have been over this before, Bourque played on worse teams that Lidstyrom, waht would one expect?

Also it's just one set of number to compare.



Quote:
And Lidstrom's defensive numbers aren't skewed by playing in the low scoring DPE? Riiiight..

How would the DPE skew LLidstrom's numbers in any positive way?
Quote:
The Russians came over after 1989 btw. Bourque faced your "fully integrated league" for half of his career, won 2 of his Norris, was runner up 4 more times and 3rd twice during as well as 6 First team all-star nods and 2 2nd team nods in those 11 years..

The Russians are only part of the "fully integrated league". In any comp Lidstrom's league was more fully integrated than any of Bouque, Orr, Harvey.

I will run numbers on this later, please take the time to read and absorb them.



Quote:
Even all those guys combined, it's no where even remotely close to the frequency that Harvey went up against Howe and Hull EACH per season..

Harvey and the Habs, remember all thsoe HHOFers he played with, also got to play the extremely weak Black Hawks very often, Hull and Mikita were there only in the altter part of Harveys career. The NYR and Boston were hardly dynasties during harveys career as well.




Quote:
What do you honestly think is harder to do?
Facing those very top end players a dozen or so times a season total or facing those very top end players 14 times EACH per season + playoffs?
Hmmmm....I wonder how Lidstrom's defensive numbers survive facing Gretzky and Lemieux 14 times EACH a season.
I think that if you look at teh actual facts the level of competion for Harvey was much less than for Lidstrom.

Hull was 19 in 58 when he played his 1st season in the NHL and before that the Black Hawks were Columbus like. The Rangers and Boston were pretty weak during Harvey's tenure as well.

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11-20-2012, 07:55 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
We have been over this before, Bourque played on worse teams that Lidstyrom, waht would one expect?

Also it's just one set of number to compare.
What I would expect if Lidstrom was that much more effective than Bourque, is that Lidstrom's on ice numbers would be well ahead of Bourque's. Instead they are almost equal.
That means that despite Lidstrom having that superior supporting cast around him, Bourque was just as effective as Lidstrom with much, much less support.
We may have been over this before but you certainly didn't understand what it meant then either.


Quote:
How would the DPE skew LLidstrom's numbers in any positive way?
You're kidding right? You seriously believe it's not easier to play defense at even strength when your team is playing as a 5man unit using much stricter defensive systems in both the defensive zone and neutral zones?


Quote:
The Russians are only part of the "fully integrated league". In any comp Lidstrom's league was more fully integrated than any of Bouque, Orr, Harvey.

I will run numbers on this later, please take the time to read and absorb them.
I can't wait.


Quote:
Harvey and the Habs, remember all thsoe HHOFers he played with, also got to play the extremely weak Black Hawks very often, Hull and Mikita were there only in the altter part of Harveys career. The NYR and Boston were hardly dynasties during harveys career as well.
You realise Harvey won a Norris with those NYR's right?
There were NINE expansion teams added to the league during Lidstrom's career! Almost all of them during his prime.




Quote:
I think that if you look at teh actual facts the level of competion for Harvey was much less than for Lidstrom.
Really? Lets count how many top 20 All-time D-men Harvey faced and beat out in their primes compared to how many Lidstrom faced and beat out in their primes.

You should take a serious look at that list, noting the ages and what part of their careers they were in for the players each beat before answering.


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 11-20-2012 at 08:04 PM.
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11-20-2012, 08:08 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
What I would expect if Lidstrom was that much more effective than Bourque, is that Lidstrom's on ice numbers would be well ahead of Bourque's. Instead they are almost equal.
That means that despite Lidstrom having that superior supporting cast around him, Bourque was just as effective as Lidstrom with much, much less support.
We may have been over this before but you certainly didn't understand what it meant then either.
For almost his entire career Lidstrom has had at least two Selke level players in Yzerman/Federov and Daytsuk/Zetterberg on his team. Not taking anything away from his brilliance but that helps.

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11-20-2012, 08:13 PM
  #97
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i think most reasonable people don't doubt pre-NJ stevens, though as you say discipline was an issue. but there was another thread recently where someone said washington and even st. louis stevens was basically a slightly better kevin hatcher. i shake my head.
As someone from DC who watched the Caps back then I can honestly this idea that Stevens was a crap defender is a bunch of bull. We in Washington knew Stevens as a vicious hitter and top-notch defender. He just happened to be a scorer too. There's a reason why the Caps were known as a top defensive team back then and it isn't because Rod Langway was playing both sides of the ice for 60 minutes a game.

I have a suspicion that maybe some posters can confirm that defensemen who actually have the temerity to score points get poo-hooed as being soft defensively. It's a stereotype and not a particularly accurate one.


Last edited by Morgoth Bauglir: 11-21-2012 at 01:14 PM.
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Old
11-20-2012, 09:25 PM
  #98
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Weber was robbed even more in 2012 than 2011 imo. Voters got too excited about a dman who could put up better offense than everyone else even though Chara/Weber seem by far to be the two tougest dmen to score against who can put up 40+ pts.
Not exactly on topic, but this was my immediate thought also.

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Old
11-20-2012, 10:09 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Litework View Post
For almost his entire career Lidstrom has had at least two Selke level players in Yzerman/Federov and Daytsuk/Zetterberg on his team. Not taking anything away from his brilliance but that helps.
Might as well throw Draper in there too, seeing as their careers were almost entirely concurrent.

Lidstrom played behind not only elite two-way forwards, but also one of the deepest forward groups in the league, every year. At no point in time was he in a position to be exposed by having to do it all on his own for an extended period, and I think that's where even a big Lidstrom fan ought to have a shade of doubt.

Now, you could probably say the same about Harvey...

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11-20-2012, 10:13 PM
  #100
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
As someone from DC who watched the Caps back then I can honestly this idea that Stevens was a crap defender is a bunch of bull. We in Washington knew Stevens as a vicious hitter and top-notch defender. He just happened to be a scorer too. There's a reason why the Caps were known as a top defensive team back then and it isn't because Rod Langway was playing both sides of the ice for 60 minutes a game.

I have a suspicion that maybe some posters can confirm that defensemen who actually have the temerity to actually score points get poo-hooed as being soft defensively. It's a stereotype and not a particularly accurate one.
thanks for sharing your memories. i honestly didn't see much of stevens in washington at all (due to age and not living in a patrick division city), so i'm going mostly by things i've read and reputation. and a lot of that reputation came when st. louis tendered that offer sheet when everyone was like, "who the hell is scott stevens to get more money than bourque?" and the answer usually was, "the toughest dude in the league, and a guy who on top of his good numbers contributes defensively in ways that don't show up on the scoresheet."

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