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Old
11-20-2012, 01:47 PM
  #726
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think teams like Habs, Leafs or Flyers are losing a whole lot too.
Yes, absolutely, but thats 3, not 30.

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11-20-2012, 01:47 PM
  #727
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Same can be said about the owners.
Which ones? 5 of them?

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11-20-2012, 01:49 PM
  #728
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While I agree, it's part of the process. What I don't understand though is people comparing it to real life situations. If an employer does that, I can switch job and get my fair market value again.

For the NHL(and other NA sports leagues) they are the only ones who can pay that much. That's what I don't understand, the swiss can't give up 70 mil capspace, neither can the rest. So even with a 10% paycut they still make more than any other league in the world 95% of the time. It's not the same as a real life situation.

IMO, if the players feel screwed by NHL owners, they can sign in KHL(assuming their contract is expired in NHL). I don't think they'd be happier with no pension, poor healthcare, poor transportation and less money in a foreign country(for most).
same goes for the owners, it's not like they can find players of Datsyuk, Criosby, Malkin, etc calibre elsewhere.

Nothing against the Moen or White of this world, but the league sure didnt make record revenues last year because of them.

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11-20-2012, 01:52 PM
  #729
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no problem, with a mindset like that I hire you at that price, and 6 months later you're back at "below 100K a year", and you'll be more than happy about that, right ?
Oh...right...because that's where it's headed...


Enough with the over the top exaggerations. You talked about a 10% from a 5M salary, that gives me 4.5M. Yea, I will gladly accept that if it means actually touching that money, as opposed to bringing nothing.
Not sure how dropping the salary by 98% comes even close to that.

Players took a rollback last time, and the cap was at 39M, that didn't prevent anybody from making tons of cash now did it?.

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11-20-2012, 01:52 PM
  #730
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Which ones? 5 of them?
Yup, and the others well they can keep taking money from these five in revenue sharing to reduce their deficit

I can see the guys in Minny offices very happy to have Suter and Parize take salary cuts while getting a bigger amount from revenue sharing

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11-20-2012, 01:52 PM
  #731
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same goes for the owners, it's not like they can find players of Datsyuk, Criosby, Malkin, etc calibre elsewhere.

Nothing against the Moen or White of this world, but the league sure didnt make record revenues last year because of them.
Look at leafs, can't win, no playoffs, no cup, no success, etc...

Solid out, most valuable team in league.

Yeah, sure, you can't replace crosby and company but league didn't die without him, it kept growing.

Also, you can put our prospects on the ice, call it the habs and people will pay for it anyway.

While I agree some players are tremendous assets to the game, that number is very little and the league can continue without them. Am I suggesting they do? Nah. Just saying if all the stars left and played in other leagues, the NHL still has the depth to be best league in the world.

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11-20-2012, 01:54 PM
  #732
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While I agree, it's part of the process. What I don't understand though is people comparing it to real life situations. If an employer does that, I can switch job and get my fair market value again.

For the NHL(and other NA sports leagues) they are the only ones who can pay that much. That's what I don't understand, the swiss can't give up 70 mil capspace, neither can the rest. So even with a 10% paycut they still make more than any other league in the world 95% of the time. It's not the same as a real life situation.

IMO, if the players feel screwed by NHL owners, they can sign in KHL(assuming their contract is expired in NHL). I don't think they'd be happier with no pension, poor healthcare, poor transportation and less money in a foreign country(for most).
And the NHL owners, need NHL caliber players, to make them the revenue they need to operate under the costs they have right now. No replacement scrubs will bring in gate revenues they need to keep their arenas functional. if the league dissolves, the loss on the owners side will be 10x+ bigger then the loss of the players. Virtually billions on the owners side. With new talent pool, you can bet that the KHL, swiss league, german league, swedish league, will grow in terms of interest(revenue) which will result in higher salaries, higher benefits, higher working standards etc. Players talent doesn't go bankrupt, while owner's "talent" will go bankrupt, failing to keep it's product, which it depends on to receive revenue, it's players.

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11-20-2012, 01:55 PM
  #733
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think I'd wait 6 months to cut your salary, come on now ?

you'd be more than happy to get a 10% salary cut you said, so let's start with that. Following week, lets cut to a mil, you'd be again more than happy... unless you're a greedy and selfish millionnaire right ?

or maybe I should go the nhl way, hire you next summer for a hefty price, and cut your salary by 10/20 % before you even start working for me

I mean, I'll hire you to program stuff for me for lets say, 100k a year... but will never pay you more than 50, that sounds right dont you think ?
I missed this one, but let's be simple. Can't do. You can only cut between CBAs. If players go 50-50 and sign a 10 year deal, owners need to wait 10 years before suggesting paycut.

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Yup, and the others well they can keep taking money from these five in revenue sharing to reduce their deficit

I can see the guys in Minny offices very happy to have Suter and Parize take salary cuts while getting a bigger amount from revenue sharing
Why would minny be happy? They get screwed anyway. A lot of those contracts are signing bonuses which are paid anyway.

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11-20-2012, 01:57 PM
  #734
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And the NHL owners, need NHL caliber players, to make them the revenue they need to operate under the costs they have right now. No replacement scrubs will bring in gate revenues they need to keep their arenas functional. if the league dissolves, the loss on the owners side will be 10x+ bigger then the loss of the players. Virtually billions on the owners side. With new talent pool, you can bet that the KHL, swiss league, german league, swedish league, will grow in terms of interest(revenue) which will result in higher salaries, higher benefits, higher working standards etc. Players talent doesn't go bankrupt, while owner's "talent" will go bankrupt, failing to keep it's product, which it depends on to receive revenue, it's players.
Arenas overseas do not have same capacity. Not to mention they have rules for foreign player limits.

It's all nice and dandy to say talent will travel but doesn't always work that way.

Sure, owners would lose a lot but they'd just make a new league, even if it's AHL quality people in montreal will watch.

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11-20-2012, 01:58 PM
  #735
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Oh...right...because that's where it's headed...


Enough with the over the top exaggerations. You talked about a 10% from a 5M salary, that gives me 4.5M. Yea, I will gladly accept that if it means actually touching that money, as opposed to bringing nothing.
Not sure how dropping the salary by 98% comes even close to that.

Players took a rollback last time, and the cap was at 39M, that didn't prevent anybody from making tons of cash now did it?.
sure you would since you never made that much money (neither did I), for the players it's their every year salary... so, do the same at your job, take what's considered every year salary, cut it by 10/20% and come back to tell us how happy you are to have your job


it's not anymore and that's why players are getting more. Chances are that if the cap was still 39M, no players would be making over 5 or 6 mil, or very few... now, lets try to remember why it isnt 39M anymore

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11-20-2012, 02:00 PM
  #736
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Which ones? 5 of them?
You think only 5 teams have invested capital in their product? What will happen to all the debts these owners operate on? There are only a few teams that operate on "freerolls" where arena is paid for by city/nhl, most teams have debt and interest they need to pay off, and usually large sums of money. Even teams that don't make money, are still worth 50+++ mill to their respective owners. dissolve the league, dissolve hundreds of millions of dollars these owners have in their books; whether their team makes revenue or not, doesn't really matter.

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11-20-2012, 02:03 PM
  #737
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I missed this one, but let's be simple. Can't do. You can only cut between CBAs. If players go 50-50 and sign a 10 year deal, owners need to wait 10 years before suggesting paycut.



Why would minny be happy? They get screwed anyway. A lot of those contracts are signing bonuses which are paid anyway.
they save on salary, they get a bigger piece of the revenue sharing pie... so they'd would probably go from losing (example) 10M a year to losing 3M a year... considering most teams are breaking even at best, they're more than happy to have a lockout.

problem with this, and the's where the owners arent thinkging right IMO is that, while a few teams will be happy to save a few Mil, these team are still NOT profitable, they're just losing less money... and for them to lose less money it requires that those very few who are making $ to give away a bigger part of their profits...

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11-20-2012, 02:07 PM
  #738
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Arenas overseas do not have same capacity. Not to mention they have rules for foreign player limits.

It's all nice and dandy to say talent will travel but doesn't always work that way.

Sure, owners would lose a lot but they'd just make a new league, even if it's AHL quality people in montreal will watch.
wishful thinking. except for montreal, which doesn't have any competition in terms of pro sports, most other places will shift towards other sports. The die hard hockey fans are already watching/following the AHL's of this world.
Canada would probably the easiest place to re-create a new league, because of the high demand for hockey related products. But RDS/CBC/TSN tv contracts are laughable comparatively to what revenue NBC brings in for example.

they wouldn't 'lose' money, they would be become insolvent, and file for bankruptcy.

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11-20-2012, 02:10 PM
  #739
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wishful thinking. except for montreal, which doesn't have any competition in terms of pro sports, most other places will shift towards other sports. The die hard hockey fans are already watching/following the AHL's of this world.
Yup, and some are so fed up with this crap, they dont follow hockey (Jr, oversea, AHL, etc), chances are than once the situation is back to normal, some of them will go from die hard to casual fans.

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11-20-2012, 02:16 PM
  #740
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they save on salary, they get a bigger piece of the revenue sharing pie... so they'd would probably go from losing (example) 10M a year to losing 3M a year... considering most teams are breaking even at best, they're more than happy to have a lockout.

problem with this, and the's where the owners arent thinkging right IMO is that, while a few teams will be happy to save a few Mil, these team are still NOT profitable, they're just losing less money... and for them to lose less money it requires that those very few who are making $ to give away a bigger part of their profits...
Bonuses were already paid out. Parise and Suter and getting paid to stay home. Even if they cut costs by 10%, Minny already lost.

I don't disagree with increased revenue sharing. Never have.

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wishful thinking. except for montreal, which doesn't have any competition in terms of pro sports, most other places will shift towards other sports. The die hard hockey fans are already watching/following the AHL's of this world.
Canada would probably the easiest place to re-create a new league, because of the high demand for hockey related products. But RDS/CBC/TSN tv contracts are laughable comparatively to what revenue NBC brings in for example.

they wouldn't 'lose' money, they would be become insolvent, and file for bankruptcy.
okay and if NBC's contract is better, who cares? There would be a new league with lower wages, and less contraction. Montreal would make even more.

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11-20-2012, 02:22 PM
  #741
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okay and if NBC's contract is better, who cares? There would be a new league with lower wages, and less contraction. Montreal would make even more.
And how would they pay their debt with lower earnings? The interest on the debt is calculated in terms of projected revenues. Habs default and file for bankruptcy; which is the main reason teams (and in general, tactic used in all of the corporate world) finance their operations through debt.

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11-20-2012, 02:32 PM
  #742
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And how would they pay their debt with lower earnings? The interest on the debt is calculated in terms of projected revenues. Habs default and file for bankruptcy; which is the main reason teams (and in general, tactic used in all of the corporate world) finance their operations through debt.
What lower earnings? Molson still rents out the bell center with eventco.

They can make a league of their own and charge less for tickets but way less for salaries. They'd be fine.

Does this apply to other people? No, teams like PHX would have a hard time for sure.

I just feel all canadian teams, NYR, CHI, BOS, and several others can easily rebound IF it reaches there.

Besides your statement doesn't work anyway. You're pushing an extreme that won't happen. Foreign teams don't have the budget nor capacity to pay NHL type salaries consistently. They also have max foreign player limits. Assuming they all suddenly fixed their problems and cut out the limits, there would be assess russian players coming here and many NA players would stay anyway. You assume everyone would leave AND no one coming back. It's a fallacy. NHL is the best league. The best players will come back.

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11-20-2012, 02:48 PM
  #743
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What lower earnings? Molson still rents out the bell center with eventco.

They can make a league of their own and charge less for tickets but way less for salaries. They'd be fine.

Does this apply to other people? No, teams like PHX would have a hard time for sure.

I just feel all canadian teams, NYR, CHI, BOS, and several others can easily rebound IF it reaches there.

Besides your statement doesn't work anyway. You're pushing an extreme that won't happen. Foreign teams don't have the budget nor capacity to pay NHL type salaries consistently. They also have max foreign player limits. Assuming they all suddenly fixed their problems and cut out the limits, there would be assess russian players coming here and many NA players would stay anyway. You assume everyone would leave AND no one coming back. It's a fallacy. NHL is the best league. The best players will come back.
its the best league, because it was able to attract and lock up the best talent. if some teams will be able to rebound without that talent, then i'm sure european leagues will be able to grow with better talent.

i think the main disagreement in these arguments have been towards our personal perception of the worth of the players to the game. Obviously i think the players have far more worth to the league then the league to it's players, and that can be logically observed as in to how strong the will to keep and bring talent into the NHL, wether it's with bonuses or facilities or the NHLPA which guarantees it's players a competitive opportunity to make a great living. I think the NHL would not be where it is right now without the NHLPA acting like a "rewards" program for future players.

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11-20-2012, 03:55 PM
  #744
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sure you would since you never made that much money (neither did I), for the players it's their every year salary... so, do the same at your job, take what's considered every year salary, cut it by 10/20% and come back to tell us how happy you are to have your job


it's not anymore and that's why players are getting more. Chances are that if the cap was still 39M, no players would be making over 5 or 6 mil, or very few... now, lets try to remember why it isnt 39M anymore
Actually I don't have to think about this because it already happened to me. I got cut 11% because the company was struggling at the time. We worked hard to get it back on track and I got it all back on top of other bonuses. Would take the same decision today again. It also built a stronger relationship between the company and myself.

10% will always remain 10%, however, someone losing 3000$ out of 30K is more damaging than someone losing 500K out of 5M. The guy making 30K has very good chances to already be struggling, living in a tiny place, with an old car. The guy making 5M will still afford a very beautiful house, couple of luxury cars, eat out in the finest restaurants, travel wherever he wants, he will have access to every thing he wants.
One guy will need to cut on life supplies, the other will have to limit his luxuries. Comparing both is insulting.

You're right the cap is not at 39M, it's at 0. Nobody is earning a dime, except the players collecting signing bonuses.

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11-20-2012, 04:31 PM
  #745
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i think the main disagreement in these arguments have been towards our personal perception of the worth of the players to the game. Obviously i think the players have far more worth to the league then the league to it's players,
Good observation. And by contrast, I just don't think the players are that "special". Every time I watch an international match, or the Spengler Cup, say, I can't help feeling like NHL players - in the majority - are not that "special". There is certainly an upper crust that is. But for most of them... they are "different" stylistically, but I don't think they are better or would provide a better brand of entertainment. So far nothing I see about the stats (I haven't watched any games though) of NHL players in other leagues disrupts this perception for me. I'm thinking the league does have more worth... they have the venues, the big business marketing infrastructure etc. For the 80% of "non-special" players, it's the NHL that gives them millionaire status, and they aren't going to get that when they go elsewhere and find they don't even stand out in some of these other lower-paying and supposedly "inferior" leagues. But as you say a totally personal perception.

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11-20-2012, 06:30 PM
  #746
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Lockout will be over by the weekend, NHL hockey in the first week of December 95%.

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11-20-2012, 06:31 PM
  #747
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Actually I don't have to think about this because it already happened to me. I got cut 11% because the company was struggling at the time. We worked hard to get it back on track and I got it all back on top of other bonuses. Would take the same decision today again. It also built a stronger relationship between the company and myself.

10% will always remain 10%, however, someone losing 3000$ out of 30K is more damaging than someone losing 500K out of 5M. The guy making 30K has very good chances to already be struggling, living in a tiny place, with an old car. The guy making 5M will still afford a very beautiful house, couple of luxury cars, eat out in the finest restaurants, travel wherever he wants, he will have access to every thing he wants.
One guy will need to cut on life supplies, the other will have to limit his luxuries. Comparing both is insulting.

You're right the cap is not at 39M, it's at 0. Nobody is earning a dime, except the players collecting signing bonuses.
The players get an automatic paycut whenever the league is struggling. It's called a salary cap. If league revenues drop, then player salaries drop.

Since the last lockout owner revenue after salaries has increased ~176%, yet their profits are still zero. It's not the players' fault that the owners can't manage properly.

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11-20-2012, 06:36 PM
  #748
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Oh...right...because that's where it's headed...


Enough with the over the top exaggerations. You talked about a 10% from a 5M salary, that gives me 4.5M. Yea, I will gladly accept that if it means actually touching that money, as opposed to bringing nothing.
Not sure how dropping the salary by 98% comes even close to that.

Players took a rollback last time, and the cap was at 39M, that didn't prevent anybody from making tons of cash now did it?.
25% last lockout, a 12% salary cut this time, maybe 20% or 30% next lockout, 40% or 50% the lockout after that, and one day the NHL could eliminate pensions and health insurance for all retired players, could eliminate guaranteed contracts for players injured on the ice, etc.

That's the history of management attacking unions everywhere in North America in the last 40 years. A good example is the recent bankruptcy filing of hostess brand. Hedge Funds and Private Equity dumped 800 million dollars of debt on the company a decade ago. They mismanaged the company's pension plan. The union agreed to a pay cut a decade ago, and since then management's salaries have been increasing every year, including a 100% increase in the last year. Now? They are closing the company and blaming the union. They might take away the pensions and health insurance of retired workers, we'll see.

My suggestion to the players: Fight back or you'll end up with what Jeremy Jacobs wants you to end up with: with nothing, nothing at all, you'll be ruined.


Last edited by DAChampion: 11-20-2012 at 07:06 PM.
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11-20-2012, 07:04 PM
  #749
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I'll take the 10% pay cut and the 5 million salary no problem. Both at the same time even. Heck if you know a java/perl job that pays like that I'll take it.

And I'll even respect the dress code with that
I don't know any Java but I know perl. I use it nearly every day for my job.

I would definitely take my salary and job above that of hockey players. I may make less salary, but I have fewer expenses, I don't take as many risks with my health, I can eat a slice of cake once a week and not end my career, I don't need to spend 100 days/nights a year on the road, I don't get stalked by hyperfans in the street, and I have good prospects for a cereer through age 65 or 70.

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11-20-2012, 07:08 PM
  #750
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