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AAA 2012 Draft

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Old
11-20-2012, 03:45 PM
  #626
Dreakmur
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We'll take the captain of the Little Men of Iron - Archie Hooper, C

He was a major offensive cog for his team, leading he league once and making major contributions to 2 Stanley Cup championships.

In addition, he was a noted 2-way player. That makes him one of the very few forwards of his era that combined good offense and good defense.

Unfortunately, he was hit in the head with a puck, and died after just 3 seasons. We feel his peak is so strong that, it overcomes the short career. At the beginning of his final season, a newspaper article called him his team's best player - quite a compliment considering the team was home to a prime Tommy Phillips, a prime Dickie Boon, and a prime Jack Marshall.


Last edited by seventieslord: 11-20-2012 at 03:53 PM. Reason: bold
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11-20-2012, 03:50 PM
  #627
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
He's the reason 70s and I could never agree on a goalie. Rinne's 4 years are probably better than any other goalie outside Martin and Cechmanek.
What about Palmateer? From 1977 to 1980, he was 3rd, 4th and 7th in sv%, and averaged 16 sv% points more than the league average, and 19 points more than the other Toronto goalies in that time. That is huge.

This also includes a very subpar 1980. If you look just at 77-79, those numbers are 21 and 23 points. He also earned Hart and All-star recognition in this time, and also played at a level well above the league average in the playoffs, something Rinne has not done.

the big knock on him is the whole 356 GP thing, but Rinne is only at 250.

Can someone explain to me why one would take Rinne over Palmateer?

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Originally Posted by BudsBuster View Post
Ive been having a similar arguement with 70s on this for a while now.
OK, but you were arguing with a straight face that you'd take him over Kiprusoff...

Quote:
But another couple years of 35-40 wins and a vezina finally and he is probly a ATDee.
That would make him Ryan Miller - at best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Yes. And yes.

I know the numbers say otherwise (which is why I generally dislike them), but Cechmanek was one of the worst goalies I've ever seen play in the NHL.
Except, assumedly, for the other goalies Philadelphia employed from 2001-2003, who had a combined sv% of .897 to his .923.

Surely you mean besides those ones, right?

Quote:
Selfish note: I was hoping Rinne would be my starter in the AA draft. I also thought by that time he would have the requisite number of games to be picked. I was under the impression you needed 300, but I guess that's just a loose guideline...? For the record, I'm not at all protesting the pick or anything like it. I'm a huge fan of it actually. He is one of the best goalies here and provided we actually have a season some time soon, this is the last time he gets picked this low.
No, there's no 300 game rule. We used to have one in the MLD but I think even that was abolished this year. It's especially important that we don't have it in the AAA and beyond, because at that point we start to see more sub-300 game players who stand up well against active 500-600 game players despite the GP disadvantage.

Rinne has 484 combined senior level games, anyway

Although, I must say I'm surprised you're so Anti-Cechmanek and Pro-Rinne. Particularly since the lockout there have been goalies whose stats were clearly influenced by their coaches, and aside from the obvious, Tim Thomas, there's also Backstrom, Rinne, and a soon-to-be drafted.

In Rinne's last 4 seasons his .921 sv% was just 14 points better than Nashville's other goalies. I shouldn't say "just", as 14 points is excellent. But Cechmanek was 26 points ahead over his four best years, and Palmateer was 23 points ahead over his best three. (and Cesare Maniago maintained 13 points above his teammates over a period of 9 years, and that group included Gump Worsley's superior stats).

And "dominance of backups" is a metric you like a lot, IIRC.

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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
The Sheffield Steelers picks a player who tarnished his legacy in his last few seasons in the NHL but were still a good tough role player for good teams:

Chris Simon, LW

See, why pick goons when you can pick goons that can play.

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Originally Posted by God Made Me View Post
It would be nice to see one of these guys make a pick now. Except for jkrx's LW Chris Simon pick 2 posts up, no one has picked today and some might be traveling for Thanksgiving tomorrow.
Who wants to do a thanksgiving weekend 12 hour clock? Starting Thursday? If we get half the teams to say yes to it, we'll do it.

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11-20-2012, 04:35 PM
  #628
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Lucien DeBlois, RW


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Old
11-20-2012, 05:00 PM
  #629
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OK, but you were arguing with a straight face that you'd take him over Kiprusoff...


No... I said that there 4 year "peak" (stating consecutive seasons) favor Rinne. Kipper has the GP advantage. Also this is Rinne only 4 starting seasons.
im sure he has more good-great seasons left in him.

Again these are just numbers. Coaching and team play has a lot to do with it too.

All I was trying to prove was that he was a good option for this draft.

Rinne over the 4 year span age 26-29

137 wins
2.36 GAA
920 SV%
and 25 shutouts.
Averaging 62 GP a season over this stretch.

Kipper Age 29-32
166 Wins
2.52 GAA
912 SV%
and 23 shutouts.
Averaging 75 GP a season over this stretch.

unless im mistaken but that was Kippers peak no?

He may have another good season or two other than those four years but also has had twice the seasons as Rinne.
Is it safe to say that in 5 more years if rinne keeps this up and make a finals ( may never happen ) then they are in the same league? Again would have to get that Vezina too....

Playoffs Kipper has the advantage.

with twice the GP and Wins. 5 SV% points higher.

Im not trying to Boost Rinne and down play Kipper. Kipper is great. Rinne I think will be great.

Am I way off here? Let me know.

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Old
11-20-2012, 05:00 PM
  #630
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Except, assumedly, for the other goalies Philadelphia employed from 2001-2003, who had a combined sv% of .897 to his .923.

Surely you mean besides those ones, right?
I just don't care about them (Boucher and Esche) to be honest. Boucher was always brutal I thought. And Esche would have had the same lateral movement with skates as he would with flip-flops...all three were terrible goalies, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Although, I must say I'm surprised you're so Anti-Cechmanek and Pro-Rinne. Particularly since the lockout there have been goalies whose stats were clearly influenced by their coaches, and aside from the obvious, Tim Thomas, there's also Backstrom, Rinne, and a soon-to-be drafted.

In Rinne's last 4 seasons his .921 sv% was just 14 points better than Nashville's other goalies. I shouldn't say "just", as 14 points is excellent. But Cechmanek was 26 points ahead over his four best years, and Palmateer was 23 points ahead over his best three. (and Cesare Maniago maintained 13 points above his teammates over a period of 9 years, and that group included Gump Worsley's superior stats).

And "dominance of backups" is a metric you like a lot, IIRC.
Games played thing noted. I didn't really count the AHL. Maybe I didn't count at all, it's tough to tell.

See, the other thing with me, besides noting that I do put a good amount of weight in "vs. backups" stats, is that it's talent evaluation first (especially with modern players) and let the numbers back that up or the narrative (newspaper quotes, etc.) back that up. Not the other way around. Of course, this draft is largely a different animal for obvious reasons. In order to get an idea of the talent you're evaluating, you must know what the talent level is around a player. Even if we had a clip of Frank Nighbor playing, without context, it still wouldn't do us that much good.

So, that's why I'm particularly vocal about current players because I know the present NHL as well as my left index finger knows my right nostril (you'd prefer "back of my hand"?). Cechmanek was horrendous. I'll never understand how what happened happened, but I know he was bad at being a goalie. And I know it's unpopular because it's a cute story and numbers and all that noise, but Tim Thomas stinks too. Quebec and Edmonton were right to let him go when they did. I was never wild about Niklas Backstrom either, but he's solid if unspectacular.

I mean, maybe people read that and it's a credibility hit, maybe...I could have just as easily not said any of that. But I trust my eye to make the call, and if the numbers back me up, cool, and if they don't, that's ok too.

For Rinne, I mean, his back up is a different quality than Boucher. Boucher is a fringe NHLer. Anders Lindback (have to assume it's ok to say his name) was coveted by another team to be their starter already. So, we'll see what the future dictates for him. But Rinne was basically backed up by Rinne-lite the last two years. Lindback takes a lot from Rinne, they play similar styles, they aren't just big "blockers", they are active save makers. Lindback isn't on Rinne's level (he's not one of the best goalies in the league is all that means), but if he's durable enough (has some injury concerns, Adult Still's disease, etc.) he's going to be a good fit in Tampa once they get their act together a little bit. So like I said, talent evaluation then numbers. So I think it's not abnormal for Rinne and Lindback to have good numbers because they're the same basic goalie - just one is in training.

One last point on Cechmanek, above defensive systems and shot quality and quality of teammates and all that. There's basic hockey being played. This harkens back to the post I made regarding mentally advanced goalies going down a level (Brodeur, for instance, would put up worse numbers in the AHL, even though you'd think he would dominate because he's going down a level). In this case, Cechmanek is the guy doing it wrong and it's hard to adapt when you're a shooter. As a Flyer he had a .923 save pct. during the regular season. Now, you prepare for him, you get to watch him, realize his weaknesses and pick him apart - his save pct. drops to .909 in the playoffs. He had the one piece of a series against snake-bitten Ottawa in 2002 and even then Boucher played more than a quarter of the series and put up the same numbers.

He was a fraud. But he's a great case for someone like me, because everyone knows he's bad and he got booed out of the league, but yet for three years he was the toast of the statistical town, like the quizzical but well-rounded Pi might have been to Archimedes' bone-enclosed, cerebrospinal-moated metropolis...

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11-20-2012, 05:08 PM
  #631
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St. John's selects LW Greg Gilbert


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11-20-2012, 05:12 PM
  #632
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
I just don't care about them (Boucher and Esche) to be honest. Boucher was always brutal I thought. And Esche would have had the same lateral movement with skates as he would with flip-flops...all three were terrible goalies, in my opinion.



Games played thing noted. I didn't really count the AHL. Maybe I didn't count at all, it's tough to tell.

See, the other thing with me, besides noting that I do put a good amount of weight in "vs. backups" stats, is that it's talent evaluation first (especially with modern players) and let the numbers back that up or the narrative (newspaper quotes, etc.) back that up. Not the other way around. Of course, this draft is largely a different animal for obvious reasons. In order to get an idea of the talent you're evaluating, you must know what the talent level is around a player. Even if we had a clip of Frank Nighbor playing, without context, it still wouldn't do us that much good.

So, that's why I'm particularly vocal about current players because I know the present NHL as well as my left index finger knows my right nostril (you'd prefer "back of my hand"?). Cechmanek was horrendous. I'll never understand how what happened happened, but I know he was bad at being a goalie. And I know it's unpopular because it's a cute story and numbers and all that noise, but Tim Thomas stinks too. Quebec and Edmonton were right to let him go when they did. I was never wild about Niklas Backstrom either, but he's solid if unspectacular.

I mean, maybe people read that and it's a credibility hit, maybe...I could have just as easily not said any of that. But I trust my eye to make the call, and if the numbers back me up, cool, and if they don't, that's ok too.

For Rinne, I mean, his back up is a different quality than Boucher. Boucher is a fringe NHLer. Anders Lindback (have to assume it's ok to say his name) was coveted by another team to be their starter already. So, we'll see what the future dictates for him. But Rinne was basically backed up by Rinne-lite the last two years. Lindback takes a lot from Rinne, they play similar styles, they aren't just big "blockers", they are active save makers. Lindback isn't on Rinne's level (he's not one of the best goalies in the league is all that means), but if he's durable enough (has some injury concerns, Adult Still's disease, etc.) he's going to be a good fit in Tampa once they get their act together a little bit. So like I said, talent evaluation then numbers. So I think it's not abnormal for Rinne and Lindback to have good numbers because they're the same basic goalie - just one is in training.

One last point on Cechmanek, above defensive systems and shot quality and quality of teammates and all that. There's basic hockey being played. This harkens back to the post I made regarding mentally advanced goalies going down a level (Brodeur, for instance, would put up worse numbers in the AHL, even though you'd think he would dominate because he's going down a level). In this case, Cechmanek is the guy doing it wrong and it's hard to adapt when you're a shooter. As a Flyer he had a .923 save pct. during the regular season. Now, you prepare for him, you get to watch him, realize his weaknesses and pick him apart - his save pct. drops to .909 in the playoffs. He had the one piece of a series against snake-bitten Ottawa in 2002 and even then Boucher played more than a quarter of the series and put up the same numbers.

He was a fraud. But he's a great case for someone like me, because everyone knows he's bad and he got booed out of the league, but yet for three years he was the toast of the statistical town, like the quizzical but well-rounded Pi might have been to Archimedes' bone-enclosed, cerebrospinal-moated metropolis...
Anyone else hoping for Mikes team to meet Utah Grizzlies?

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11-20-2012, 05:17 PM
  #633
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Anyone else hoping for Mikes team to meet Utah Grizzlies?
I am now!!! lol

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Old
11-20-2012, 05:26 PM
  #634
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and now Dreakmur, you can see why I was hesitant to take Cechmanek! Too much stigma attached!

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11-20-2012, 06:42 PM
  #635
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BudsBuster View Post
Ive been having a similar arguement with 70s on this for a while now. I believe Rinne right now is Close to the best goalie in this draft however lacks the GP. But another couple years of 35-40 wins and a vezina finally and he is probly a ATDee. But remember Rinne has always had elite defense in front of him. Roman.... Not so much. Im interested to see how well he does with out Suter there.
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
...That would make him Ryan Miller - at best. ...
I make it a policy not to disagree with people from Regina , but I agree with 70s. If Pekka played 2 more years and won a Vezina moving up from the 18th round of the AAA to the first 5 rounds of the MLD would be a big jump for a guy with only 6 years in the league. He would have to play a 7th season, win another award or AST, or have some more playoff success before I'd take him over someone like Kelly Hrudey who played 677 NHL games with a 3.42 regular season average and a 3.28 playoff average in 85 playoff games. I also think scoring was slightly higher during Kelly's 83-98 career, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

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11-20-2012, 07:11 PM
  #636
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I make it a policy not to disagree with people from Regina , but I agree with 70s. If Pekka played 2 more years and won a Vezina moving up from the 18th round of the AAA to the first 5 rounds of the MLD would be a big jump for a guy with only 6 years in the league. He would have to play a 7th season, win another award or AST, or have some more playoff success before I'd take him over someone like Kelly Hrudey who played 677 NHL games with a 3.42 regular season average and a 3.28 playoff average in 85 playoff games. I also think scoring was slightly higher during Kelly's 83-98 career, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
I agree somewhat. I dont really care about the Vezina but sure it would look great but it would really look good if he could take the preds far in the playoffs and be a smythe candidate.

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11-20-2012, 07:34 PM
  #637
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In Rinne's last 4 seasons his .921 sv% was just 14 points better than Nashville's other goalies. I shouldn't say "just", as 14 points is excellent. But Cechmanek was 26 points ahead over his four best years, and Palmateer was 23 points ahead over his best three. (and Cesare Maniago maintained 13 points above his teammates over a period of 9 years, and that group included Gump Worsley's superior stats).

.
The incredibly liberal shotcounting in Nashville surely is part of the reason why every goalie there has such a high save percentage.

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11-20-2012, 09:00 PM
  #638
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Eisbaren Berlin selects G Viktor Zinger



and RW Radek Dvorak, who has a surprising .525PPG over 1,191 NHL games, while contributing on the PK as well.


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11-20-2012, 09:09 PM
  #639
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Ok, I'll take Randy Wood.

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11-20-2012, 09:15 PM
  #640
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and RW Radek Dvorak, who has a surprising .525PPG over 1,191 NHL games, while contributing on the PK as well.

I like this pick. Didn`t even consider him, but we should have. 1200 games and a decent 2-way game is impressive.

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11-20-2012, 09:16 PM
  #641
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Ok, I'll take Randy Wood.
That`s my porn name.

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11-20-2012, 09:56 PM
  #642
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Dvorak went at the end of the MLD. I only know this because I wanted to pick him the other day

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11-20-2012, 10:04 PM
  #643
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That`s my porn name.
They say you take your first pet's name and the street you grew up on. Mine would be Pokey Strong. I'm not kidding.

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11-20-2012, 10:06 PM
  #644
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They say you take your first pet's name and the street you grew up on. Mine would be Pokey Strong. I'm not kidding.
In that case, I'd be Airwalk Wallace

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11-20-2012, 10:39 PM
  #645
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In that case, I'd be Airwalk Wallace
That's a good-looking marketable young star NBA small forward if I've ever heard one.

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11-20-2012, 11:57 PM
  #646
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Snowball McAra..... that's just gross.

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11-21-2012, 12:41 AM
  #647
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and now Dreakmur, you can see why I was hesitant to take Cechmanek! Too much stigma attached!
I knew he'd get unfairly trashed, but he was still the BGA when we were talking goalies

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11-21-2012, 12:58 AM
  #648
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I knew he'd get unfairly trashed, but he was still the BGA when we were talking goalies
And, in at least a few peoples opinions, the WGA.

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11-21-2012, 01:13 AM
  #649
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And, in at least a few peoples opinions, the WGA.
That`s where the unfairly part comes in.

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11-21-2012, 08:39 AM
  #650
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I'll take Jake Forbes, G for the second consecutive year, a personal favorite of mine, and a guy I think is underrated in the eyes of a lot of people. Here's the bio I created for him in last year's AAA Draft.



Last edited by Velociraptor: 11-21-2012 at 09:45 AM. Reason: wrong link
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