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Old
11-20-2012, 04:40 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Yoyes will be keeping Yandle, if that is the price tag.
I really don't get it. You are a team stacked on D but light on O, you have two guys who could fetch you HUGE returns, one of which is the building block of your team that you would never trade(OEL), leaving basically one option(Yandle). Meanwhile, even though you are light on O you still have a good enough team to make, or at least challenge for the playoffs every year, essentially guaranteeing you a draft pick in the 15-30 range, making it very difficult to find elite talent through the draft.

Now, I can understand wanting to trade Yandle for established NHL talent, but to request John Tavares basically implies that Yandle is untouchable, which I think makes absolutely zero sense considering the factors I already mentioned.

I don't get it.

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11-20-2012, 05:06 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
I really don't get it. You are a team stacked on D but light on O, you have two guys who could fetch you HUGE returns, one of which is the building block of your team that you would never trade(OEL), leaving basically one option(Yandle). Meanwhile, even though you are light on O you still have a good enough team to make, or at least challenge for the playoffs every year, essentially guaranteeing you a draft pick in the 15-30 range, making it very difficult to find elite talent through the draft.

Now, I can understand wanting to trade Yandle for established NHL talent, but to request John Tavares basically implies that Yandle is untouchable, which I think makes absolutely zero sense considering the factors I already mentioned.

I don't get it.
LA traded Jack Johnson and a conditional 1st for Jeff Carter. But they did it after they had Doughty locked in long term and Voynov looked fully ready. I think Yandle is a little better than Jack Johnson. I think OEL is going to be looking for a long term deal this summer. I think Gormley is getting closer, but not there yet. And I think Maloney will be looking for a similar deal when the time comes. But the time hasn't come yet and we don't have a clue what the new CBA might bring.

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11-20-2012, 05:42 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
I really don't get it. You are a team stacked on D but light on O, you have two guys who could fetch you HUGE returns, one of which is the building block of your team that you would never trade(OEL), leaving basically one option(Yandle). Meanwhile, even though you are light on O you still have a good enough team to make, or at least challenge for the playoffs every year, essentially guaranteeing you a draft pick in the 15-30 range, making it very difficult to find elite talent through the draft.

Now, I can understand wanting to trade Yandle for established NHL talent, but to request John Tavares basically implies that Yandle is untouchable, which I think makes absolutely zero sense considering the factors I already mentioned.

I don't get it.
The problem is that we arent really as "stacked" on D as much as a prospect-centric message board might think. We've got a lot of depth a D and some really high end talent on the roster. OEL and Yandle are budding stars while Michalek, Klesla, and Morris are rocks on D. Schlemko, Stone, and Summers are all poised to be solid NHL defensemen, as well, but their upside remains to be seen. Guys like Gormley, Rundblad, and Murphy don't really factor into the equation, though. We are a team that has learned the hard way not to count our chickens before they've hatched. Wheeler, Mueller, and Turris are bitter tastes not soon forgotten.

As far as center is concerned, we aren't in a position to trade for a first line center. There are none available and certainly not at prices we can afford to pay (in terms of both assets and dollars). We've got a couple of great two-way centers, signed to longer term deals in Vermette and Hanzal. Gordon is an elite PK center who anchors a 4th line as well as anyone in the league. Yes we need another center. Yes , in a perfect world, it would be ideal if he were a legit number one. This isn't a perfect world.

I'd much rather hang onto a top asset like Keith Yandle, and sacrifice a much lesser asset to acquire a center that might not be a marquee player but could be a decent fit. Maybe a Tim Connolly or Matthew Lombardi type. Someone like that, who could potentially be a good fit for Tippett, but won't cost us one of our only elite level talents in Yandle.

What makes more sense for a team trying to win playoff rounds; Yandle for center prospects and picks or futures for a journeyman center?

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11-20-2012, 05:54 PM
  #29
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Yandle for Statsny?

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11-20-2012, 08:22 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by rt View Post
The problem is that we arent really as "stacked" on D as much as a prospect-centric message board might think. We've got a lot of depth a D and some really high end talent on the roster. OEL and Yandle are budding stars while Michalek, Klesla, and Morris are rocks on D. Schlemko, Stone, and Summers are all poised to be solid NHL defensemen, as well, but their upside remains to be seen. Guys like Gormley, Rundblad, and Murphy don't really factor into the equation, though. We are a team that has learned the hard way not to count our chickens before they've hatched. Wheeler, Mueller, and Turris are bitter tastes not soon forgotten.

As far as center is concerned, we aren't in a position to trade for a first line center. There are none available and certainly not at prices we can afford to pay (in terms of both assets and dollars). We've got a couple of great two-way centers, signed to longer term deals in Vermette and Hanzal. Gordon is an elite PK center who anchors a 4th line as well as anyone in the league. Yes we need another center. Yes , in a perfect world, it would be ideal if he were a legit number one. This isn't a perfect world.

I'd much rather hang onto a top asset like Keith Yandle, and sacrifice a much lesser asset to acquire a center that might not be a marquee player but could be a decent fit. Maybe a Tim Connolly or Matthew Lombardi type. Someone like that, who could potentially be a good fit for Tippett, but won't cost us one of our only elite level talents in Yandle.

What makes more sense for a team trying to win playoff rounds; Yandle for center prospects and picks or futures for a journeyman center?
I get what you are saying, but I suppose I have a little more faith in the prospects than you do. Definitely a riskier approach, but also one that could return the biggest reward.

I've liked Gormley for a long time. Thought there was a good chance the Isles would take him in 2010 so I followed him closely at the draft, and have continued to follow him for no other reason than me being intrigued to see how the guy I wanted is turning out. I can probably count the number of defense prospects who I think are basically guarantees to become top-4 NHL defenders on one hand. He is definitely one of them. Now, if you don't share that sentiment then I understand your hesitancy to deal Yandle.

That said, I agree that this isn't something that Phoenix needs to rush. Yandle is signed for a long time, and is just entering his prime so if anything his value should continue to rise. The only question is what packages will be available in the future if that's what they decide to do, because while they might end up being better, they could also end up being nowhere near as good.

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11-20-2012, 08:35 PM
  #31
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One more thing, RT, since we're on the subject of young PHX d-men:

What seems to be Phoenix fan's thoughts/expectations of Rundblad? He went from being one of the top prospects in the game to just a good prospect. At least according to most of the recent rankings I've seen. Haven't seen much of his recent play in the SEL, but he's a guy that I thought could become a Karlsson clone based on writeups and clips I've seen.

What are the Coyotes' plans with him? Would he be used as trade bait before an established guy like Yandle?

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11-20-2012, 08:50 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
Yandle for Statsny?
From an unbiased observer...I think colorado adds to make that deal happen. They could use a left side d of that quality. The combination of stastny's contract and a bad couple of years makes that an unfair trade. Stastny would fit in very well with tippet though for sure.

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11-20-2012, 10:24 PM
  #33
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Now, I can understand wanting to trade Yandle for established NHL talent
The idea that the Coyotes, who are a good team, would trade an established 1st pairing defensemen for a bunch of maybes is silly. That package is 3 years, at best, from making an impact at the NHL level. It'd be pointless for the Coyotes.

Even if it's a quality for quantity trade, you'd have to look at the Flyers trades as a comparison. Meaning, a young NHL player who's maybe on the brink of breaking out, a top end prospect and a 1st... Okposo, Strome/Niederreiter, 1st for Yandle and a warm body to make up the loss of depth. That would still be a tough sell considering that the Coyotes could probably get a better player than Okposo for a rare commodity like Yandle.

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11-20-2012, 10:55 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
One more thing, RT, since we're on the subject of young PHX d-men:

What seems to be Phoenix fan's thoughts/expectations of Rundblad? He went from being one of the top prospects in the game to just a good prospect. At least according to most of the recent rankings I've seen. Haven't seen much of his recent play in the SEL, but he's a guy that I thought could become a Karlsson clone based on writeups and clips I've seen.

What are the Coyotes' plans with him? Would he be used as trade bait before an established guy like Yandle?
To me, Rundblad's name makes a lot more sense in trade talks than Yandle's. We picked up Rundblad because he was the best "asset" offered for Kyle Turris. I'm not sure he was the best "fit". He's going to have to come a long way before a guy like Dave Tippett is going to give him a fair shake. Obviously we've all seen the breathtaking highlight videos and the eyepopping stats in the SEL, but Dave Tippett is not exactly known for his on the job training advocacy. He's gone on the record saying that minor leagues are for development and the nhl is for winning games. He's a tough sell on young talent. Some guys can work hard and preserve through it like Yandle and Boedker. Other guys take the easy way out. Out of town. Guys like Turris and Mueller, I mean.

So, yeah, I could see Rundblad involved in the right deal. Especially with how well Stone(another RHD) is progressing.

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11-21-2012, 06:54 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Richie Daggers Crime View Post
The idea that the Coyotes, who are a good team, would trade an established 1st pairing defensemen for a bunch of maybes is silly. That package is 3 years, at best, from making an impact at the NHL level. It'd be pointless for the Coyotes.

Even if it's a quality for quantity trade, you'd have to look at the Flyers trades as a comparison. Meaning, a young NHL player who's maybe on the brink of breaking out, a top end prospect and a 1st... Okposo, Strome/Niederreiter, 1st for Yandle and a warm body to make up the loss of depth. That would still be a tough sell considering that the Coyotes could probably get a better player than Okposo for a rare commodity like Yandle.
I think you are combining the two Philly trades. For Carter they got Voracek, the 8th overall and a 3rd rounder. For Mike Richards they got Schenn, Simmonds and a 2nd. Far from a young NHLer on the brink of breaking out, a top prospect, and a top-pick in a great draft. Unless you think Yandle has a lot more value than Mike Richards or Jeff Carter(pre-2012), then I understand.

Either way, the only roster player I'd consider moving that could possibly fit here would be Grabner. That said, there's no way I'd include all three of Grabner, Nelson and the 1st. If you think that's what it would take, I understand. I just highly doubt any team would pay that.

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11-21-2012, 07:47 AM
  #36
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There is no way I would trade Brock Nelson.
Gotta agree. Probably the singlemost interesting prospect we've got, if it isn't Strome.

That package of size, shot, face-off ability and growth rate (with respect to his ability to go from high school to the AHL within 3 seasons) is making him look like a trulyyyyyy special player. This guy has an above-average top six - likely 2nd line center - role written all over him. Looking like THE ideal supplement to Tavares up the middle.

IMHO, the Islanders aren't so desperately in need of the Yandle skillset, not so long as Streit and technically Visnovsky are in the picture. That might change as soon as next season.

On top of it all, I never like seeing top 10 picks being moved. With the Islanders' trading and UFA signing tendencies over Snow's GMing time, this team is practically 80% dependent on its drafting department. Can't be dishing off their biggest asset, especially with no 2nd rounder in the cupboard for what is looking like a very nice draft.


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11-21-2012, 07:50 AM
  #37
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Yandle for Statsny?
Would be interesting if Stastny hadn't been declining in production in recent years. Looking like a 55 point man from here on out.

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11-21-2012, 08:51 AM
  #38
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To me, Rundblad's name makes a lot more sense in trade talks than Yandle's. We picked up Rundblad because he was the best "asset" offered for Kyle Turris. I'm not sure he was the best "fit". He's going to have to come a long way before a guy like Dave Tippett is going to give him a fair shake. Obviously we've all seen the breathtaking highlight videos and the eyepopping stats in the SEL, but Dave Tippett is not exactly known for his on the job training advocacy. He's gone on the record saying that minor leagues are for development and the nhl is for winning games. He's a tough sell on young talent. Some guys can work hard and preserve through it like Yandle and Boedker. Other guys take the easy way out. Out of town. Guys like Turris and Mueller, I mean.

So, yeah, I could see Rundblad involved in the right deal. Especially with how well Stone(another RHD) is progressing.
I would probably take a chance on him, even though I'd obviously prefer a defenseman who's already NHL established. Maybe a prospect-prospect swap of some kind. No idea what would work though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
Gotta agree. Probably the singlemost interesting prospect we've got, if it isn't Strome.

That package of size, shot, face-off ability and growth rate (with respect to his ability to go from high school to the AHL within 3 seasons) is making him look like a trulyyyyyy special player. This guy has an above-average top six - likely 2nd line center - role written all over him. Looking like THE ideal supplement to Tavares up the middle.

IMHO, the Islanders aren't so desperately in need of the Yandle skillset, not so long as Streit and technically Visnovsky are in the picture. That might change as soon as next season.

On top of it all, I never like seeing top 10 picks being moved. With the Islanders' trading and UFA signing tendencies over Snow's GMing time, this team is practically 80% dependent on its drafting department. Can't be dishing off their biggest asset, especially with no 2nd rounder in the cupboard for what is looking like a very nice draft.
The only way I can see all these guys sticking here is if Strome is moved to the wing. What makes holding onto Nelson so appealing the what you just said - the thought of having that package from the center position. The only options would be moving Strome to JT's RW, which might be a bad idea, or grooming Nelson to be the 3rd line center, where we already have one of the better ones in the league in Nielsen.

As far as the top 10 pick goes, I could honestly care less about trading it as long as it's used to bring in an impact player. For argument's sake, let's say that Phoenix accepts that trade. We end up losing our 1st, Nelson and Ness/Donovan. Our lineup would end up looking something like this:

Moulson - Tavares - Nino
Bailey - Strome - Okposo
Ullstrom - Nielsen - Grabner
Martin - Cizikas - Lee/UFA

Yandle - Hamonic
Streit - Reinhart
MacDonald - Carkner(deHaan/Mayfield/Pedan/Pelech/etc.)

With a lineup like that, I don't see what area we weaken ourselves in for the future.

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11-21-2012, 09:55 AM
  #39
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I think you are combining the two Philly trades. For Carter they got Voracek, the 8th overall and a 3rd rounder. For Mike Richards they got Schenn, Simmonds and a 2nd. Far from a young NHLer on the brink of breaking out, a top prospect, and a top-pick in a great draft. Unless you think Yandle has a lot more value than Mike Richards or Jeff Carter(pre-2012), then I understand.
I think the value is about equal to what I outlined in my post in both of those instances. Voracek/Simmons are about Okposo. Schenn was (is) a top of the line prospect that's about NHL ready. Certainly more value than Strome/Neids at this point. The 1st, if traded now, would be a bit of a crapshoot, but would in all likelihood be top 12. I think it's pretty comparable to both of those deals, plus defensemen are usually a little more valued. Regardless, my point is that the Coyotes would need something a little more NHL ready. You'll have to give up something that hurts. Nelson and Ness may be nice players, but you chose guys that are by and large expendable from a NYI point of view.

Grabner isn't gonna be a huge trade chip that's gonna land you a big fish. He's a one-trick pony and everyone knows it.

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11-21-2012, 10:57 AM
  #40
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I think the value is about equal to what I outlined in my post in both of those instances. Voracek/Simmons are about Okposo. Schenn was (is) a top of the line prospect that's about NHL ready. Certainly more value than Strome/Neids at this point. The 1st, if traded now, would be a bit of a crapshoot, but would in all likelihood be top 12. I think it's pretty comparable to both of those deals, plus defensemen are usually a little more valued. Regardless, my point is that the Coyotes would need something a little more NHL ready. You'll have to give up something that hurts. Nelson and Ness may be nice players, but you chose guys that are by and large expendable from a NYI point of view.

Grabner isn't gonna be a huge trade chip that's gonna land you a big fish. He's a one-trick pony and everyone knows it.
Grabner's numbers last year definitely hurt his value, but I think the fact that he's still young, has a 34-goal season under his belt, and the fact that last year could potentially be labeled as a "sophomore slump" could keep his value relatively high. Trade-talks aside, I still think he has the potential to be a perennial 30-goal guy. The fact that he had an awful year last season and still potted 20-goals should count for something, IMO.

Just to add a little perspective, prior to being traded, Voracek's career highs in goals/points were 16/50 through 3 full seasons, while Simmonds' were 16/40 through 3 full seasons. Grabner's highs right now are 34/52 through 2 full seasons. He's only a year older than Simmonds and 2 years older than Voracek. Right now I think he still has a lot of value, although if he has another season like he did last year that could change a lot.

As far as the trade value that Phoenix would need in order to move Yandle, I think a lot will depend on where that 1st round pick ends up. If it ends up being around 5th overall, I think the need to have a roster player involved diminishes a bit. Even though getting a guy like Okposo or Bailey or whoever would help Phoenix in the now, neither of those guys have the upside that the draft pick would bring. In the end that could be just as, if not more important to them than getting a guy who can step right into the lineup.

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11-21-2012, 03:43 PM
  #41
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I would probably take a chance on him, even though I'd obviously prefer a defenseman who's already NHL established. Maybe a prospect-prospect swap of some kind. No idea what would work though.
I'd be open to something based around Rundblad for Nelson, probably.

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11-21-2012, 04:04 PM
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I'd be open to something based around Rundblad for Nelson, probably.
Why is each side doing this?

I'm not sure where Rundblad ranks among Coyote prospects, but Nelson's probably the isles 3rd best prospect behind Strome and Reinhart.
Wang is talking in intervews about this current group making the playoffs. I doubt he's looking for a major trade, with the team waiting a few yrs for the player to make a big impact.


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11-21-2012, 04:56 PM
  #43
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I'd be open to something based around Rundblad for Nelson, probably.
Nope, Rundblad has struggled in his own end since he has came over to North America. Nelson has over exceeded expectations since he was drafted so I think it would be fair to swap him for a prospect in the same situation, for example Brandon Gormley, if GMGS was shopping Nelson for a defenseman.

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