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Desharnais signs for Fribourg Gottéron (Switzerland)

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Old
11-19-2012, 08:15 PM
  #76
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I didn't imply that it was a bad thing.

Just stating that while in his first season he .5 ppg pace playing with Darche and Pouliot, he did get over 1/3rd of his points on the PP where he wouldn't have played with Darche and Pouliot at the same time.
Those 3 were getting over 2.00 points per 60 minutes on even strength that season, that's well into top-six territory.

They were doing this against weak opposition, so its not like they were playing like real top six forwards, but they were producing quality offense on even strength. Basically their job was to face off against opposing 4th lines and light them up, they were the counter-goon line.

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11-19-2012, 08:17 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by onemorecup View Post
bro on a good team Darche is not a top 6 and neither is DD

Thats all I am saying , on the Kings DD wouldn`t be in thier top 9 , period


Desharnais is top-6 in any team in the league.

Clearly a case where the neighbors' grass seems greener. Just take a look at any of the best teams in the league: they have 2-3 or sometimes four top fowards, and then there's guys like Chris Higgins, Dustin Penner, Jiri Hudler, Carl Hagelin, Jakub Voracek, and the list goes on.

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11-19-2012, 08:22 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by LeMAD View Post


Desharnais is top-6 in any team in the league.

Clearly a case where the neighbors' grass seems greener. Just take a look at any of the best teams in the league: they have 2-3 or sometimes four top fowards, and then there's guys like Chris Higgins, Dustin Penner, Jiri Hudler, Carl Hagelin, Jakub Voracek, and the list goes on.
I see nothing wrong with DD. He was the 20th most productive center last season; played 81 games; won nearly 50% of his faceoffs; was +10.

Not bad for and undersized, under rated, never drafted player.

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11-19-2012, 08:50 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by onemorecup View Post
bro on a good team Darche is not a top 6 and neither is DD

Thats all I am saying , on the Kings DD wouldn`t be in thier top 9 , period
And just as I foretold, you ignored my arguments and focused on secondary stuff I and others have already addressed . Its not much of a ''debate'' when one side does not even bother using actual arguments anymore, I think you should drop it.

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11-19-2012, 08:58 PM
  #80
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I see nothing wrong with DD. He was the 20th most productive center last season; played 81 games; won nearly 50% of his faceoffs; was +10.

Not bad for and undersized, under rated, never drafted player.
I think people are obsessed with size. Sure habs lack some toughness and size down the middle, but it doesn't make the assets they have bad. Perhaps we need someone better, that's reasonable, but DD isn't the problem. It's just like Koivu, he was never the problem, management's decision on keeping him as a 1st line center without good wingers or support was the problem. DD is an NHL caliber player, I have no issue with those saying he's an asset to potentially get someone better. I think we all get there's a need for an elite forward. I just don't understand the "HE HAS TO GO" attitude people give. He's not the problem. Montreal having to put him as a 1st line center? Sure, that's a problem, but it's not his fault nor is he bad because he's misplaced. He's an offensive guy with offensive players. There is bigger, stronger, more talented guys out there, but until we get one DD will continue to help the team.

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11-20-2012, 01:31 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by LeMAD View Post


Desharnais is top-6 in any team in the league.

Clearly a case where the neighbors' grass seems greener. Just take a look at any of the best teams in the league: they have 2-3 or sometimes four top fowards, and then there's guys like Chris Higgins, Dustin Penner, Jiri Hudler, Carl Hagelin, Jakub Voracek, and the list goes on.
Good stuff! People don't realize that most teams don't have 3 '1st liners' on their first line and like wise with the 2nd line.

Why are people down on DD? Do these haters have bad histories with short people? He's a better puck possession center than Pleks, plain and simple.

I love Pleks but I don't think it's so a priori that Plekanec would've put up more points than DD on that first line. I'm not saying he wouldn't either. Both play vastly different games.

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11-20-2012, 04:03 PM
  #82
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Desharnais remains pointless today in a 2-1 win for Fribourg against Lugano. Desharnais had one shoot on goal, and had +- of 0 tonight. One power-play goal was voided for Fribourg because Desharnais was in the goalie zone.

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11-20-2012, 04:22 PM
  #83
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One more solid season from Desharnais will put the doubters to rest. There is no question in my mind that he'll do it! Such a feel good story. I don't understand how anybody can be so negative towards him.

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11-20-2012, 05:26 PM
  #84
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For Desharnais to cement his spot, he needs to improve drastically. He might or he might not, it's difficult to project because he's such an unusual player.

However, in order to justify having the entire team structured around him, having 3 minutes a game of PP time, having disproportionate offensive zone starts, having easier opposition, having the two biggest and most effective wingers on the team be on his line, i.e. being given the same privileges as Henrik Sedin and Evgeni Malkin, the expectation should be 80-90 points at a minimum.

If he can become that 85 point player, then it will be worthwhile to structure the entire team around his needs. However, if he remains a 60 point player, then anything he produces from his privileged role will be more than counter-compensated by negative reverberations cascading through the rest of the lineup, such as the Staubitz-Plekanec-White line we saw last year, and we will finish in 28th place.

Can Desharnais step up? We will have to see.

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11-20-2012, 05:37 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
For Desharnais to cement his spot, he needs to improve drastically. He might or he might not, it's difficult to project because he's such an unusual player.

However, in order to justify having the entire team structured around him, having 3 minutes a game of PP time, having disproportionate offensive zone starts, having easier opposition, having the two biggest and most effective wingers on the team be on his line, i.e. being given the same privileges as Henrik Sedin and Evgeni Malkin, the expectation should be 80-90 points at a minimum.

If he can become that 85 point player, then it will be worthwhile to structure the entire team around his needs. However, if he remains a 60 point player, then anything he produces from his privileged role will be more than counter-compensated by negative reverberations cascading through the rest of the lineup, such as the Staubitz-Plekanec-White line we saw last year, and we will finish in 28th place.

Can Desharnais step up? We will have to see.
If Desharnais scored 85-points, not only would he be the best player on the team, but probably one of the best 10 players in the league. That's a little unreasonable to ask in his second year. 70-points might be a good projection this year (pace of course if we play), with 80-points next year a possibility.

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11-20-2012, 05:43 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
If Desharnais scored 85-points, not only would he be the best player on the team, but probably one of the best 10 players in the league. That's a little unreasonable to ask in his second year. 70-points might be a good projection this year (pace of course if we play), with 80-points next year a possibility.
I think you missed his point. For the Habs to be a winning team AND to use Desharnais the way they have, he'd have to be putting up a point per game.

I tend to think Desharnais will turn out to become a top-9 winger that can put up 60+ points, but we'll see.

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11-20-2012, 05:44 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
If Desharnais scored 85-points, not only would he be the best player on the team, but probably one of the best 10 players in the league. That's a little unreasonable to ask in his second year. 70-points might be a good projection this year (pace of course if we play), with 80-points next year a possibility.
I'm not sure if it's even fair to ask 70 points of him. Let's face it, Cole won't be putting up last year's numbers again. I expect Maxpac to improve a bit, but I'm not so sure it'll be enough to make up for what we'll lose in Cole.

That's all assuming that line stays intact. If it doesn't, well, lets just say feeding Cole is a hell of a lot easier than bouncing pucks off Bourque's ass.

What can be a huge difference maker for the Habs (and DD) is a working PP. While I think Eller will be preferable at centre over desharnais in a top 6 role 5v5 (there's another thread to debate that, if you like), DD would still be a fantastic option as the PP's #1 centre, IMO, and could really reap the benefits of a blue line that isn't as retarded as last year's when it comes to the man advantage.

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11-20-2012, 05:45 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
For Desharnais to cement his spot, he needs to improve drastically. He might or he might not, it's difficult to project because he's such an unusual player.

However, in order to justify having the entire team structured around him, having 3 minutes a game of PP time, having disproportionate offensive zone starts, having easier opposition, having the two biggest and most effective wingers on the team be on his line, i.e. being given the same privileges as Henrik Sedin and Evgeni Malkin, the expectation should be 80-90 points at a minimum.

If he can become that 85 point player, then it will be worthwhile to structure the entire team around his needs. However, if he remains a 60 point player, then anything he produces from his privileged role will be more than counter-compensated by negative reverberations cascading through the rest of the lineup, such as the Staubitz-Plekanec-White line we saw last year, and we will finish in 28th place.

Can Desharnais step up? We will have to see.
Desharnais has the same problematic than me as a writer, according to your view ! What about Danny Brière ?

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11-20-2012, 05:50 PM
  #89
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After the first two months where DD was inconsistent and was still getting used to being an everyday player, he had 47 points in 56 games, and that's with a bad PP. That's a pace of 69 points in 82 games. That equals Plek's two best seasons, where he benefited from a no 1 PP and another one that was just as good. Not only that but after a dismal start at the faceoff circle, he managed to get back to 50%. The doubters will find a way to discredit him though.

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11-20-2012, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by muzion View Post
After the first two months where DD was inconsistent and was still getting used to being an everyday player, he had 47 points in 56 games, and that's with a bad PP. That's a pace of 69 points in 82 games. That equals Plek's two best seasons, where he benefited from a no 1 PP and another one that was just as good. Not only that but after a dismal start at the faceoff circle, he managed to get back to 50%. The doubters will find a way to discredit him though.
Your mistake is that you're comparing his best 56 game stretch to Plekanec's best 80 game stretch. I'm sure that within Plekanec's 70 points in 80 game season he had a 56 game stretch where statistical fluctuations pushed him above that level.

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11-20-2012, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
If Desharnais scored 85-points, not only would he be the best player on the team, but probably one of the best 10 players in the league. That's a little unreasonable to ask in his second year. 70-points might be a good projection this year (pace of course if we play), with 80-points next year a possibility.
In order to justify having the entire team structured around his needs, a la Henrik Sedin or Evgeni Malkin, he needs to be the best player on the team by a fair margin and an elite player in the league. Otherwise, the sacrifices necessary to structure the team around his needs are not worth it, see last year's 28th place finish.

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Originally Posted by FF de Mars View Post
Desharnais has the same problematic than me as a writer, according to your view ! What about Danny Brière ?
I don't get your point about writing, but yes Danny Briere is an alternative. However, if Desharnais becomes Danny Briere, then that is consistent with my point. My point was about what DD needs to do to maintain his status as privileged 1st line center, not whether or not he can become a 2nd line center and PP specialist behind a Giroux/Galchenyuk type player, that's a different question.

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11-20-2012, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Your mistake is that you're comparing his best 56 game stretch to Plekanec's best 80 game stretch. I'm sure that within Plekanec's 70 points in 80 game season he had a 56 game stretch where statistical fluctuations pushed him above that level.
His best 56 game strech also coincided with Desharnais definitely leaving the 3rd line, where he started the year last season.

And no matter what we say about Desharnais's wingers, Plekanec had AT LEAST ONE YEAR where one of his wingers was MUCH better than Pacioretty or Cole.

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11-20-2012, 06:34 PM
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And no matter what we say about Desharnais's wingers, Plekanec had AT LEAST ONE YEAR where one of his wingers was MUCH better than Pacioretty or Cole.
I'd take Kovalev/Kostitsyn over Cole/Pacioretty, but not by much, and in any case Plekanec scored MUCH better than 60 points that season, he had 69 points, including 29 goals, huge difference.

Plekanec also had seasons of 70 points in 82 games and 57 points in 77 games.

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11-20-2012, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I'd take Kovalev/Kostitsyn over Cole/Pacioretty, but not by much, and in any case Plekanec scored MUCH better than 60 points that season, he had 69 points, including 29 goals, huge difference.

Plekanec also had seasons of 70 points in 82 games and 57 points in 77 games.
He also played the whole season with Kovalev, and never really played on the 3rd line.

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11-20-2012, 07:31 PM
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Your mistake is that you're comparing his best 56 game stretch to Plekanec's best 80 game stretch. I'm sure that within Plekanec's 70 points in 80 game season he had a 56 game stretch where statistical fluctuations pushed him above that level.
DD wasn't established yet as a top 6 center thus had to be sheltered and couldn't produce like one. One game he would play like a NHLer and the next like a AHLer. After October and November he got accustomed to the league.

In 07-08 Plekanec had the no 1 PP along with Markov and Streit at the point (and Kovalev who was the real center), and in 09-10 he had Markov and MAB. Give Desharnais MAB last season and we're not talking about a 60 point center...

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11-20-2012, 07:43 PM
  #96
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In order to justify having the entire team structured around his needs, a la Henrik Sedin or Evgeni Malkin, he needs to be the best player on the team by a fair margin and an elite player in the league. Otherwise, the sacrifices necessary to structure the team around his needs are not worth it, see last year's 28th place finish.
And this is why talk about that line being untouchable are so absurd.

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11-20-2012, 08:53 PM
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And this is why talk about that line being untouchable are so absurd.
Actually, I would have had them untouchable at the beginning of the season to give Desharnais something that I do think he has "earned": The opportunity to demonstrate that he's improved. That would have meant making the line untouchable for 20 or 30 games.

However, at the beginning of next season, Galchenyuk will be on the Habs. The number 1 constraint on line formation will be to have Galchenyuk as the 3rd line center (or possibly on Eller's wing) getting a fair dose of offensive zone starts and easy matchups. That, right then and there, breaks up last year's 1st line, as it transfers offensive opportunities from the 1st to 3rd line, and thus transfers defensive responsibilities onto the 1st line.

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11-20-2012, 09:29 PM
  #98
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His best 56 game strech also coincided with Desharnais definitely leaving the 3rd line, where he started the year last season.

And no matter what we say about Desharnais's wingers, Plekanec had AT LEAST ONE YEAR where one of his wingers was MUCH better than Pacioretty or Cole.
Desharnais started on a 3rd line with two top six wingers and powerplay time. So not really 3rd line at all in production terms. Martin was using him as an offensive specialist from the begining, giving the two way responsibilities to Plekanec and Gomez/Eller. He got to play with Pacioretty starting only a couple games into the year. Desharnais played almost every game with some combination of Pacioretty, Cole, A Kostitsyn and Cammalleri last year.


On the other hand, 60 points in 11-12 is a pretty close to the same as 70 points in 07-08. The drop in powerplay opportunities had that big of an effect on top line offense. Both had about 40 points on ES, just Plekanec could get almost 30 on the powerplay while Desharnais could only get almost 20. Plekanec scored like very good PP center that year though on rate while Desharnais was pretty average last year, so lets call it a 65 point effort in 07-08 terms.

But then again, Plekanec was carrying his line on ES that year (Kovalev's elite year was strickly a powerplay phenomena) while Cole and Pacioretty both outstripped DD on ES. So Plekanec's ~40 points were worth more than Desharnais and he's likely the stronger ES producer, although not by a huge margin. When we're talking about ES lines, which is essentially what we're doing, no one sensible thinks DD shouldn't play powerplay in some capacity, Plekanec has the better resume.





The key problem for next season is LW though, which is why I think the line needs to be split. Pacioretty is the only LW in the system that can score while playing against tough opposition, unlike RW where both Gionta and Cole can do that. So if they are to form the solid two-way line around Plekanec the team needs to keep Desharnais in a strickly offensive role, Pacioretty probably has to be on it. It would be different if they still had Cammalleri or Kostitsyn, but that's water under the bridge.

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11-20-2012, 10:12 PM
  #99
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He also played the whole season with Kovalev, and never really played on the 3rd line.
Plekanec plays in every situation. No comparison here.

In football it'd be like comparing a situational pass rushers' sack totals to a guy who's in there on every down. Even if they are similar, one guy gets to pin his ears back and go get the quarterback while the other is at war in the trenches, yet still gets to the quarterback when needed. You can guess which guy has more value to a club.

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11-20-2012, 11:03 PM
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I think you missed his point. For the Habs to be a winning team AND to use Desharnais the way they have, he'd have to be putting up a point per game.

I tend to think Desharnais will turn out to become a top-9 winger that can put up 60+ points, but we'll see.
The offensive zone stat is a bit ridicuous, IMO. It averaged out to something like 1.5 extra faceoffs per game in offensive zone. Or maybe even less, I'm too lazy to do the math again.

At the start of the year Pacioretty and Cole weren't expected to be our two best wingers either (and Cole wasn't at first).

Anyway, I probably shouldn't get involved in this debate again. He proves people wrong enough with his play that I don't need to argue about it.

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