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Norris Trophy Pilfering '98 vs '11

View Poll Results: Who was robbed more?
Lidstrom in '98 47 68.12%
Weber in '11 22 31.88%
Voters: 69. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-20-2012, 10:16 PM
  #101
SaintPatrick33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
thanks for sharing your memories. i honestly didn't see much of stevens in washington at all (due to age and not living in a patrick division city), so i'm going mostly by things i've read and reputation. and a lot of that reputation came when st. louis tendered that offer sheet when everyone was like, "who the hell is scott stevens to get more money than bourque?" and the answer usually was, "the toughest dude in the league, and a guy who on top of his good numbers contributes defensively in ways that don't show up on the scoresheet."
YQW! Another part of that Caps blueline corps was Larry Murphy, who's another defenseman I've seen get ripped.

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11-20-2012, 11:54 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
What I would expect if Lidstrom was that much more effective than Bourque, is that Lidstrom's on ice numbers would be well ahead of Bourque's. Instead they are almost equal.
That means that despite Lidstrom having that superior supporting cast around him, Bourque was just as effective as Lidstrom with much, much less support.
We may have been over this before but you certainly didn't understand what it meant then either.
The on ice off ice isn't a perfect measurement, as recall there were some other great players that had surprisingly weaker numbers than one would expect.

Was it overpass that presented these numbers? Something to go back and look at again.

There are other number floating around out there as well like adjusted plus/minus, hockey share points and the hockey prospectus one as well. Not sure if all of those capture playoff games as well, in which Lidstrom has an advantage IMO.

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You're kidding right? You seriously believe it's not easier to play defense at even strength when your team is playing as a 5man unit using much stricter defensive systems in both the defensive zone and neutral zones?
My bad I misread that and thought you were talking about his offensive, which in a previous post you claimed that Lidstrom wasn't an offensive Dman but rather a "defensive one who could QB a PP well."

It's not only inaccurate but a contradiction, why would any coach put a defensive Dman on the ice as the PP QB if he wasn't offensive.

Perhaps you are working on a different notion of what an offensive Dman does.

Still alot of what happens on defense isn't measurable and not sure what you mean about 5 man units. The Red wings certainly were not a Tikinov coached team.

Quote:
You realise Harvey won a Norris with those NYR's right?
Yes I do, and not the most outstanding field of all time ever if you look at it really closely.

Pilote is 2nd despite missing 11 games , but with Hull emerging as a scoring threat his assist totals look very impressive for 62.

Talbot has his career year with 47 points sandwiched between 31 and 25, replacing Harvey as the top offensive threat (on the back end) on that great Habs team.

Brewer is 23 and great on d but provides little offense.

Mohns scores well but is never really in contention for the best Dman in the league ever.

Evans makes an appearance tied for 5th spot in a career year and an average career at that.

Tim Horton doesn't gain traction for actually being in the running for the Norris until the next season, perhaps the voters missed him and/or Brewer took away some of his possible votes, not sure.

There were NINE expansion teams added to the league during Lidstrom's career! Almost all of them during his prime.[/QUOTE]

And you don't think that the increase in talent from the US, Europe and BC and the maritime is enough to make up for this?

Just to compare Nick started with 22 teams in 92nad reaches 30 in 01.

Orr plays
1 season with 6 teams,
then 3 with 12,
2 more with 14, (WHA appears along with these 2 teams as well)
2 with 16 and 1 with 18

the increase in players from other non traditional feeders araes is very small here.

Like I said, I will do an in depth look at it from Havey to Lidstrom when I have some time as it will take many hours to do.


Quote:
Really? Lets count how many top 20 All-time D-men Harvey faced and beat out in their primes compared to how many Lidstrom faced and beat out in their primes.
What top 20 are you talking about?

Harvey is a clear 2nd to Kelly (7th) for a couple of years and is in direct compitition and beats him in 3 years, it seems that voters were treating Kelly as a forward by then.

Pilote (14) is 8th in norris voting in 58
4th in 60
4th in 61
2nd in 62

Horton (17) is 6th in 55 (no votes listed)
10th in 60
6th in 61
5th in 62

Gadsby (21) is 2nd in 56
4th in 57
2nd in 58
6th in 60
10th in 61

These guys played against Lidstrom, not going to bother listing finishes as I have done so elsewhere and will just list years played

3 Bourque 79-01
10 Chelios 83-10
13 Coffey 80-01
18 MacInnis 81-04
19 Stevens 82-04
20 Pronger 94-12

You should take a serious look at that list, noting the ages and what part of their careers they were in for the players each beat before answering.[/QUOTE]

It looks like Lidstrom fared better once again here but it depends on how you define prime, earlier you stated that 9 teams were added into the NHL and to quote "almost all of them in their prime."

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Old
11-20-2012, 11:57 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Another part of that Caps blueline corps was Larry Murphy, who's another defenseman I've seen get ripped.
And Al Wild Thing Iafrate. Highly entertaining. Showered post game with
his helmet on because he was self conscious about his growing baldness.
Got hustled out of Toronto after coming home one day to find his wife in bed
with fellow team mate Gary Leeman. Called up the team enforcer to come on
over and a lay beating on Garys ass, Leafs top scorer at the time out of commish...

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Old
11-21-2012, 12:00 AM
  #104
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by Litework View Post
For almost his entire career Lidstrom has had at least two Selke level players in Yzerman/Federov and Daytsuk/Zetterberg on his team. Not taking anything away from his brilliance but that helps.
That's always a consideration but Harvey was playing with some future HHOF ers and decent teams himself.

My guess, from reading other posts is that many would treat those Hab teams as better.

Either way it's really hard to measure the impact of those teams versus the impact of Harvey and Lidstrom on those teams.

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11-21-2012, 12:02 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
And Al Wild Thing Iafrate. Highly entertaining. Showered post game with
his helmet on because he was self conscious about his growing baldness.
Got hustled out of Toronto after coming home one day to find his wife in bed
with fellow team mate Gary Leeman. Called up the team enforcer to come on
over and a lay beating on Garys ass, Leafs top scorer at the time out of commish...
Al Iafrate came on the scene after Murphy and Stevens were shipped off for the unpardonable sin of asking noted cheapskate Abe Polin for a raise

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11-21-2012, 12:32 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Got hustled out of Toronto after coming home one day to find his wife in bed with fellow team mate Gary Leeman. Called up the team enforcer to come on over and a lay beating on Garys ass, Leafs top scorer at the time out of commish...
Reminds me of the Habs trading some guy because he was sleeping with Casseau's wife lol

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11-21-2012, 01:19 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
You're kidding right? You seriously believe it's not easier to play defense at even strength when your team is playing as a 5man unit using much stricter defensive systems in both the defensive zone and neutral zones?
So you are ok with Harvey being treated in the same manner then? While we all can agree that Harvey played for a stronger team than Lidström.


Quote:
You realise Harvey won a Norris with those NYR's right?
There were NINE expansion teams added to the league during Lidstrom's career! Almost all of them during his prime.
Yes, he did. I doubt anyone here is saying he cant win norrises without a dynasty supporting him or that he wasnt elite.


Quote:
Really? Lets count how many top 20 All-time D-men Harvey faced and beat out in their primes compared to how many Lidstrom faced and beat out in their primes.
I count three, so?

Quote:
You should take a serious look at that list, noting the ages and what part of their careers they were in for the players each beat before answering.
So if some defensemen are old but still great this should be used against Lidström?

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11-21-2012, 01:28 AM
  #108
vadim sharifijanov
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
And Al Wild Thing Iafrate. Highly entertaining. Showered post game with
his helmet on because he was self conscious about his growing baldness.
Got hustled out of Toronto after coming home one day to find his wife in bed
with fellow team mate Gary Leeman. Called up the team enforcer to come on
over and a lay beating on Garys ass, Leafs top scorer at the time out of commish...
that would be john kordic. and leeman was never the same after that, was he?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Al Iafrate came on the scene after Murphy and Stevens were shipped off for the unpardonable sin of asking noted cheapskate Abe Polin for a raise
technically stevens left of his own free will. but i think there was another, non-cheap owner reason he might have wanted a change of scenery and/or the might have taken the picks isn't there? courtnall for zezel and not resigning sheehy came at around the same time, though they waited a bit before giving dino away for kelly miller's brother.

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11-21-2012, 01:34 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
technically stevens left of his own free will. but i think there was another, non-cheap owner reason he might have wanted a change of scenery and/or the might have taken the picks isn't there? courtnall for zezel and not resigning sheehy came at around the same time, though they waited a bit before giving dino away for kelly miller's brother.
The thing with Polin was that the perception among Caps fans in DC back then was that he was piss-poor with the Caps while he doted on the Bullets. The Caps need a scorer up front? Polin cries poor.....but then he would dump a butt-load of money on free-agent washed-up former stars for the Bullets. It drove us Caps fans nuts that we never had money to go get a scorer but Polin could waste millions on a one-legged Bernard King to limp through NBA games.

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11-21-2012, 02:56 AM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
The on ice off ice isn't a perfect measurement, as recall there were some other great players that had surprisingly weaker numbers than one would expect.

Was it overpass that presented these numbers? Something to go back and look at again.
Yes, you going to have another look at it is a very good idea.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...t=adjusted+%2B

Quote:
There are other number floating around out there as well like adjusted plus/minus, hockey share points and the hockey prospectus one as well. Not sure if all of those capture playoff games as well, in which Lidstrom has an advantage IMO.
Of course he does, he played more PO games, on a stacked team year after year and didn't have to face 13 years of the Dynasty Isles, Oilers and Pens.


Quote:
My bad I misread that and thought you were talking about his offensive, which in a previous post you claimed that Lidstrom wasn't an offensive Dman but rather a "defensive one who could QB a PP well."
I did!

Quote:
It's not only inaccurate but a contradiction, why would any coach put a defensive Dman on the ice as the PP QB if he wasn't offensive.

Perhaps you are working on a different notion of what an offensive Dman does.
Happens all the time. There are a ton of guys that play a conservative defensive game at even strength and then run a PP.

Quote:
Still alot of what happens on defense isn't measurable and not sure what you mean about 5 man units. The Red wings certainly were not a Tikinov coached team.
I'm not talking about a 5 man unit that always has the same players playing together.
I'm talking about all 5 players on the ice playing their zones and positions in elaborate defensive zone coverages or in a trap or left wing lock in the neutral zone.

Quote:
Yes I do, and not the most outstanding field of all time ever if you look at it really closely.

Pilote is 2nd despite missing 11 games , but with Hull emerging as a scoring threat his assist totals look very impressive for 62.

Talbot has his career year with 47 points sandwiched between 31 and 25, replacing Harvey as the top offensive threat (on the back end) on that great Habs team.

Brewer is 23 and great on d but provides little offense.

Mohns scores well but is never really in contention for the best Dman in the league ever.

Evans makes an appearance tied for 5th spot in a career year and an average career at that.

Tim Horton doesn't gain traction for actually being in the running for the Norris until the next season, perhaps the voters missed him and/or Brewer took away some of his possible votes, not sure.
Compared to Lidstrom???
The only guy on that list that he beat in their prime was Pronger.
Bourque, MacInnis, Chelios, Stevens and Coffey were all 35 years or older by the time Lidstrom was winning his first Norris or garnered a single All-star nod.

And what are you talking about?
Harvey faced Kelly, Pilote, Horton and Gadsby all in their primes.


Quote:
And you don't think that the increase in talent from the US, Europe and BC and the maritime is enough to make up for this?
I have already stated previously that the early 90's from 90/91-96/97 was the deepest I had ever seen the league. Then the NHL ruined it by adding yet another 4 teams and suddenly it felt like we were back in the mid 70's again.

Oh yeah, I wonder how Bourque fared during that time...
2 Norris
3 2nd place finishes
1 3rd place finish
Along with 5 First Team All-star nods and a Second

Anywho....


Quote:
Just to compare Nick started with 22 teams in 92nad reaches 30 in 01.

Orr plays
1 season with 6 teams,
then 3 with 12,
2 more with 14, (WHA appears along with these 2 teams as well)
2 with 16 and 1 with 18
Does it matter with Orr though?
The only thing this argument does is reduce Orr's points.
It doesn't change the fact that he would still be the best PLAYER in the league and he would have still made all other D-men look like minor leaguers.
So Orr Wins 2 Art Ross with only 100-120 points instead of 120-135.
He'd still be the only D-man in history to win even one, let alone two of them!



Quote:
Like I said, I will do an in depth look at it from Havey to Lidstrom when I have some time as it will take many hours to do.
Just a suggestion...if you're going to try and make a case for Lidstrom over anyone in the top 3, you prolly should have done all this research before hand and had it ready from the beginning


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 11-21-2012 at 03:06 AM.
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11-21-2012, 03:43 AM
  #111
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Weber shouldn't have even won in 11 anyways(Chara should have)

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Originally Posted by QuietCompany View Post
Weber was robbed even more in 2012 than 2011 imo. Voters got too excited about a dman who could put up better offense than everyone else even though Chara/Weber seem by far to be the two tougest dmen to score against who can put up 40+ pts.
If Weber had won it over Karlsson it would have been one of the worst decisions of all time


Last edited by ricky0034: 11-21-2012 at 03:53 AM.
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11-21-2012, 04:13 AM
  #112
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People forget how good Rob Blake was, what your stats don't show is what a physical force he was, Weber was robbed in 11 clearly, also Lidstrom got lucky Pronger was injured in 2007

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11-21-2012, 07:47 AM
  #113
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Weber shouldn't have even won in 11 anyways(Chara should have)



If Weber had won it over Karlsson it would have been one of the worst decisions of all time
all time? lol

i actually don't know, now, why Mike Green wasn't given a Norris. Karlsson obviously won because of his offensive numbers, so if this is the case, how come Green didn't win a Norris? even points wise, Green was better in 08-09 and 09-10 where he averaged 1.07 and 1.01 points per game. things that make you go hmmm

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11-21-2012, 07:50 AM
  #114
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People forget how good Rob Blake was, what your stats don't show is what a physical force he was, Weber was robbed in 11 clearly, also Lidstrom got lucky Pronger was injured in 2007
if you really want to get crazy, i thought Chelios should have won it in 02 instead of Lidstrom

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11-21-2012, 08:16 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by jack mullet View Post
all time? lol

i actually don't know, now, why Mike Green wasn't given a Norris. Karlsson obviously won because of his offensive numbers, so if this is the case, how come Green didn't win a Norris? even points wise, Green was better in 08-09 and 09-10 where he averaged 1.07 and 1.01 points per game. things that make you go hmmm
Factored less in team/league scoring, didn't play against top competition at ES.

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11-21-2012, 10:20 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by jack mullet View Post
all time? lol

i actually don't know, now, why Mike Green wasn't given a Norris. Karlsson obviously won because of his offensive numbers, so if this is the case, how come Green didn't win a Norris? even points wise, Green was better in 08-09 and 09-10 where he averaged 1.07 and 1.01 points per game. things that make you go hmmm
But he was multitudes worse defensively. The only reason Karlsson got was because he actually shaped up a bit in that department.

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11-21-2012, 10:58 AM
  #117
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But he was multitudes worse defensively. The only reason Karlsson got was because he actually shaped up a bit in that department.
More than just a bit really.

I found him to be very solid defensively last season, by no means was he a liability like Green was.
The only real knock on him is he doesn't get much PK time. That seems to be more of a choice on MacLean's part though, due to Karlsson's strength at ES and not because he's weak on the PK.

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11-21-2012, 11:24 AM
  #118
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also Lidstrom got lucky Pronger was injured in 2007
He was lucky Pronger got injured in 2001 as well. Hell, so was Joe Sakic. The Blues were 31-11-4 when he went down and were up two points on the Avalanche. Even Terry Frei had Pronger over Joe Sakic for the Hart at mid-season. Ultimately, they went 35-12-5 with Pronger and 8-15-7 without.

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if you really want to get crazy, i thought Chelios should have won it in 02 instead of Lidstrom
So did half of the voters.

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11-21-2012, 11:25 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
More than just a bit really.

I found him to be very solid defensively last season, by no means was he a liability like Green was.
The only real knock on him is he doesn't get much PK time. That seems to be more of a choice on MacLean's part though, due to Karlsson's strength at ES and not because he's weak on the PK.
Whether that's true or not I have a hard time labeling Karlsson the best defenseman in the league last season when he doesn't play in every situation.

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11-21-2012, 01:50 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
More like 40%, but the point stands, it was fairly close.
28/62 first-place votes belonged to Chelios. Lidstrom had 29/62. Chelios lost not because of how people thought he compared to Lidstrom, but because of how people thought he compared to Rob Blake.

Compare that to the 27/54 to 15/54 lead Rob Blake had in the season he supposedly pilfered the Norris Trophy. Or the 35/127 to 33/127 Lidstrom victory in 2011.

It just seems silly that we're talking about two seasons in which players with only 26-27% support as the best defenseman were supposedly robbed, but jack_mullet seemed hesitant to mention that he believed Chelios was the best defenseman in 2002, calling it "crazy." It's no more crazy than saying Lidstrom was the best defenseman in 2002.

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11-21-2012, 02:14 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
More than just a bit really.

I found him to be very solid defensively last season, by no means was he a liability like Green was.
The only real knock on him is he doesn't get much PK time. That seems to be more of a choice on MacLean's part though, due to Karlsson's strength at ES and not because he's weak on the PK.
Yes, he improved a fair bit actually atleast enough to not be a Green type of liability.

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11-21-2012, 03:44 PM
  #122
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I agree with your overall point, I just want to show you how I got 40%...

Here are the full voting results, not just first place...
Lidstrom: 29-20-7-2-1
Chelios: 28-10-13-4-4

Here are the voting results eliminating like finishes...
Lidstrom: 1-10-0-0-0
Chelios: 0-0-6-2-3

Regardless of what the difference was (one spot, two spots, etc.) 11 more voters had Lidstrom over Chelios. 3 voters did not vote for either, so we can't really include them since we don't know what their thoughts were. So out of the 59 people who did vote, 24 (~40%) thought Chelios was better and 35 (~60%) thought Lidstrom was better.
That's not how it works. For one, we know that more than 24 people thought Chelios was better than Lidstrom: He had 28 first-place votes. That's a minimum of 45% of voters thinking Chelios was better (just as Lidstrom has a minimum of 47% of voters thinking he was better). What gave their total vote figures a difference of 472 to 431 was the fact that Chelios voters were twice as likely to mark Lidstrom the #2 defenseman over Rob Blake and the field as Lidstrom voters were to mark Chelios the #2 defenseman over Rob Blake and the field.

If three of those five voters who selected Rob Blake or Adrian Aucoin as the best defenseman in the league had Chelios above Lidstrom on their ballot, then it is exactly half of the voters favoring Chelios to Lidstrom in 2002.

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11-21-2012, 04:18 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
That's not how it works. For one, we know that more than 24 people thought Chelios was better than Lidstrom: He had 28 first-place votes. That's a minimum of 45% of voters thinking Chelios was better (just as Lidstrom has a minimum of 47% of voters thinking he was better). What gave their total vote figures a difference of 472 to 431 was the fact that Chelios voters were twice as likely to mark Lidstrom the #2 defenseman over Rob Blake and the field as Lidstrom voters were to mark Chelios the #2 defenseman over Rob Blake and the field.

If three of those five voters who selected Rob Blake or Adrian Aucoin as the best defenseman in the league had Chelios above Lidstrom on their ballot, then it is exactly half of the voters favoring Chelios to Lidstrom in 2002.
Well I certainly screwed that up...you are correct. It's 29 to 28 for a total of 57 with no real way of knowing how the other voters had them ranked.

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11-21-2012, 04:30 PM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
That's not how it works. For one, we know that more than 24 people thought Chelios was better than Lidstrom: He had 28 first-place votes. That's a minimum of 45% of voters thinking Chelios was better (just as Lidstrom has a minimum of 47% of voters thinking he was better). What gave their total vote figures a difference of 472 to 431 was the fact that Chelios voters were twice as likely to mark Lidstrom the #2 defenseman over Rob Blake and the field as Lidstrom voters were to mark Chelios the #2 defenseman over Rob Blake and the field.

If three of those five voters who selected Rob Blake or Adrian Aucoin as the best defenseman in the league had Chelios above Lidstrom on their ballot, then it is exactly half of the voters favoring Chelios to Lidstrom in 2002.
so, what you are saying is we should be talking about Chelios getting robbed in 02, not Lidstrom getting robbed in 98?

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11-21-2012, 08:02 PM
  #125
Master_Of_Districts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
28/62 first-place votes belonged to Chelios. Lidstrom had 29/62. Chelios lost not because of how people thought he compared to Lidstrom, but because of how people thought he compared to Rob Blake.

Compare that to the 27/54 to 15/54 lead Rob Blake had in the season he supposedly pilfered the Norris Trophy. Or the 35/127 to 33/127 Lidstrom victory in 2011.

It just seems silly that we're talking about two seasons in which players with only 26-27% support as the best defenseman were supposedly robbed, but jack_mullet seemed hesitant to mention that he believed Chelios was the best defenseman in 2002, calling it "crazy." It's no more crazy than saying Lidstrom was the best defenseman in 2002.
The problem with this analysis - as you ought to know - is that the voters are not infallible.

On the contrary.

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