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Old
11-20-2012, 07:31 PM
  #26
MastuhNinks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
gotta agree there

for me Kulemin was a one season wonder and the output we saw from him last year is closer to what we would get
His shooting percentage in his 30 goal season was closer to his career average than his shooting percentage this past season with the 7 goals. There's also the fact that he was depressed after losing a bunch of friends in the Lokomotiv crash. When you're that snakebitten it doesn't matter how good you are, you won't be scoring many goals (only 8 forwards had more goals than him with an equal or lesser shooting percentage, 5 of those guys had 8 goals, two guys had 11 and one had 12).

What's more likely, Kulemin suddenly becomes one of the league's worst shooters, shooting at a little over half of his career average, or this was just a slump that he can overcome?

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Old
11-20-2012, 07:33 PM
  #27
leaflover
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Leafs are already far too soft.

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Old
11-20-2012, 08:00 PM
  #28
The Nuge
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Originally Posted by leaflover View Post
Leafs are already far too soft.
How is that relevant?


No way I'd take this. I'd rather not give up a guy with Hemsky's talent for a 3rd line winger

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Old
11-20-2012, 08:05 PM
  #29
Eskimo44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavy View Post
Lol @ people talking about Kulemins 7 goals last year. Kulemin got 30 the year before that and Hemsky never touched that.
Kulemin is a 2 way player that will put you on your ass and give it his all every night. Hemsky has amazing skill but can't put it together and he is made of glass.
Toronto doesn't touch this deal at all.
This is coming from a guy who chose the number 83 to wear years ago back when I first saw Hemsky
Are you actually suggesting based on history Kulemin is the better offensive talent? That's laughable.

You know prior to last seasons comeback year he had the 15th best ppg of all wingers in the league since the first lockout. The guy he was ahead of? Rick Nash. Goals aren't everything, playmakers who can score against tough comp. are very valuable too. If we include last year he's 19th still, directly behind Rick Nash (minimum 3 seasons/240 games). His ppg since the lockout is a very impressive 0.86, Kulemin's best offensive season saw him score at a clip of 0.70. Kulemins best offensive season doesn't even come close to what Hemsky has accomplished over a huge sample size of 429 games.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...oints_per_game

Now onto the injury thing. Ales Hemsky has played 429 games since the first lockout over 7 seasons. At first glance that looks bad with an average of only 61 games per year. 22 games missed per year is 12 over the league average of 10 missed games per year from injury. However you need to consider that the vast majority of the games missed came from 2 injuries, his shoulders. He missed 60 games in 09-10 from the first injury, and then a combined 46 over the next two years with the other shoulder (in fact this past season the only missed games he missed were 11 early on due to continued rehabbing of the shoulder, and 2 from the flu. So no new injury all season.) If we remove these games from the sample, essentially removing the two shoulder injuries, Hemsky played in 429 out of a possible 468 games. That works out to an average of 75 games per year or only 7 missed per season, which is actually 3 better than the league average. So basically over 7 seasons he's largely been healthy except for two injuries. Now i'm not trying to say the didn't happen or don't matter but i think the timing of the injuries (mid season and in back to back years) make the situation seem much more worse than it really is. Hemsky is an injury risk but this is largely based off two injuries in two seasons, he's played 9 years in the NHL. 7 seasons of relatively healthy years is IMO far more indicitive of 2 seasons of injury problems.


Last edited by Eskimo44: 11-20-2012 at 08:25 PM.
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Old
11-20-2012, 08:08 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by oilerbear View Post
So looking at 2 years of G production and GD
Eberle is most effective with RNH at Center and Smyth on LW

Hall has both his best G scoring and differential rate with Horcoff at centre facing the other teams #1.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/show...5v5&type=goals

gagner was most effective with Smyth and hemsky. thou hartikainen was only 1 goal every 40 games less than smyth. while smyth's numbers far exceed amy other LW with RNH.

So a Hartikainen-Gagner-hemsky line would be most effective.

Belanger and jones were the 3rd best 1st line C-W PK Pair. they each were most efective with Eager.

Hall-Horc-XXX
Smyth-RNH-Eberle
Hartikainen-Gagner-Hemsky
Eager-belanger-Jones

two RW together?
This is what is referred to as over-reliance on stats. Just because last year was that way doesn't mean this year (or next, ugh) will be that way.

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Old
11-20-2012, 08:08 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nuge View Post
How is that relevant?


No way I'd take this. I'd rather not give up a guy with Hemsky's talent for a 3rd line winger
Because we don't need another soft foward(i.e Hemsky)...

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Old
11-20-2012, 08:10 PM
  #32
WildcatMapleLeafs28
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It dosn't meet either team's needs, they both decline.

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Old
11-20-2012, 08:11 PM
  #33
leaflover
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Originally Posted by The Nuge View Post
How is that relevant?
It gains instant relevance as soon as the state and needs of the leafs are considered.

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Old
11-20-2012, 08:12 PM
  #34
WildcatMapleLeafs28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
well if you want 7goals and 100 hits then EDM will trade you Eager.
And if you want 10 goals and zero hits , you can keep Hemsky

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Old
11-20-2012, 09:24 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
Sure it does, Kulemin brings the grit that the Oilers so desperately need in the top 6. The question about Kulemin is if he's the offensive player of 2 years ago or the one last year. I would take the Kulemin of 2 years ago over a healthy Hemsky fairly easily when considering the Oilers needs but not the Kulemin of last season so it's risky.

I don't know why Toronto does this. They need more grit if anything and trading Kulemin for Hemsky is a step back in that regard.
Kulemin seem to loss what ever grit and scoring touch he had last season, and the Oilers have a couple of kids coming up. The big question is, is Kulemin a one season wonder.

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Old
11-20-2012, 10:14 PM
  #36
The Nuge
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leaflover View Post
It gains instant relevance as soon as the state and needs of the leafs are considered.
so how does getting a player who is in absolutely no way soft make your team softer?

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Old
11-20-2012, 10:17 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
This is what is referred to as over-reliance on stats. Just because last year was that way doesn't mean this year (or next, ugh) will be that way.
Yes facts are so less accurate than real results.

Tell us your feelings.

Stuart Smalley!

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You remind of that commercial

Are you a Doctor?

No but I stayed at a howard johnson.

was your opinion on hockey based on facts.

No but I stayed at howard Johnson

I start calling you touchy feel feelings guys

Ho jo stuarts!

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Old
11-20-2012, 10:17 PM
  #38
topchowda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WildcatMapleLeafs28 View Post
And if you want 10 goals and zero hits , you can keep Hemsky
Hemsky plays in the dirty areas and roughs it up

Injuries doesnt equal playing soft
By your reasoning Lindros was soft

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Old
11-20-2012, 10:20 PM
  #39
oilerbear
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5RingsAndABeer View Post
Regarding the trade, the 2nd/3rd line grit players are dime-a-dozen.

Players of Hemsky's skill are extremely rare. Of course, Hemsky might end up being useless if he's injured, but it makes a lot more sense for Edmonton to let it ride and see what happens with Hemsky



I really don't think Horc or Smyth belong in our top 6 at this point (and that's only going to get worse as time goes on)

I'd rather roll with the youngguns in the top6 (plus Hemsky) and stress defense. Hopefully they'll all grow into competent 2-way players
Did you look at the link?

That our players produced and defended best in the combination listed.

What you think or what i thought before i read that site means nothing. the results told me i was wrong just like you are now with your feelings.

Top 6 is a term you use for kids 8 and under.

Horcoff who was historically capable of being an even player in the toughest comp zone start situations that a player should have been a -20 player.
Horcoff cannot handle that role anymore.

But put him back in a 50% zone start against the other teams best He and hall played in they get a goal every 22 min and were +8 in 31 games of minutes. which makes them 55G and +21 as an Even pair.

But we have to make up the 11% zone start. reduce Smyth-RNH-Eberle 63% start down to 55% is a start.

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Old
11-20-2012, 10:22 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nuge View Post
so how does getting a player who is in absolutely no way soft make your team softer?
Because they give up a top 6 (well can be) who is much grittier. I dont see how this is so difficult to see

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Old
11-20-2012, 10:34 PM
  #41
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Hemsky's always injured. There is no point in trading for the guy.

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Old
11-20-2012, 10:40 PM
  #42
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Lol. "I wouldn't trade Kulemin just for Hemsky". Are Leaf fans so delusional as to put Kulemin above Hemsky, let alone at the same level?

Kulemin had 28 points in 70 games last year.

Hemsky had 36 in 69 games in his worst offensive season...EVER.

Even playing at his worst Hemsky is a better player than Kulemin.

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Old
11-20-2012, 10:47 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
Hemsky plays in the dirty areas and roughs it up

Injuries doesnt equal playing soft
By your reasoning Lindros was soft
You're arguing semantics, you know what he means. Kulemin is 100x more gritty than Hemsky. He does alot of good work on the boards, does an excellent job of containing the puck in his own end and transitioning, not to mention he is always the first one to back-check.

Nope, don't really have a spot or a need for Hemsky. Too injury-prone, past his prime, etc. Atleast Kulemin has a chance to rebound and contribute, he's only 26. Hemsky is 29, not that much older but still older.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemsky_83 View Post
Lol. "I wouldn't trade Kulemin just for Hemsky". Are Leaf fans so delusional as to put Kulemin above Hemsky, let alone at the same level?

Kulemin had 28 points in 70 games last year.

Hemsky had 36 in 69 games in his worst offensive season...EVER.

Even playing at his worst Hemsky is a better player than Kulemin.
There's more to winning hockey games than just points.Pot meet kettle.

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Old
11-20-2012, 10:48 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemsky_83 View Post
Lol. "I wouldn't trade Kulemin just for Hemsky". Are Leaf fans so delusional as to put Kulemin above Hemsky, let alone at the same level?

Kulemin had 28 points in 70 games last year.

Hemsky had 36 in 69 games in his worst offensive season...EVER.

Even playing at his worst Hemsky is a better player than Kulemin.
It also happened to be Kulemin's worst offensive season too.

If you want to throw out the 30 goal season, you should also throw out the 7 goal
season.

He scored 15 and 17 in the middle seasons.

TopChowda: Kulemin is more grittier than Ales.

As a previous poster said, both decline.

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Old
11-20-2012, 11:19 PM
  #45
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I like Kuli but he hasn't shown us that he's really good enough to last in a top 6 role. We've got enough bottom sixers.

Edmonton would need more coming back their way.

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Old
11-20-2012, 11:26 PM
  #46
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No way Edmonton does it, they'd lose softness and injury proneness critical for tanking. Maybe in another couple years.

Also Hemsky's 10 goals >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kulemin's 7 goals.

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Old
11-20-2012, 11:39 PM
  #47
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What about a different type a deal between these 2 teams?

If a deal goes down between Toronto and Vancouver for Luongo, and Burke decides to let Reimer go somewhere to have an opportunity at a #1 spot, Edmonton is a viable location as they have a bunch of youth that can grow together.

Khabby isn't the goalie he used to be and Dubnyk doesn't seem to be the capable of handling the #1 spot (not that he hasn't done an admirable job). But perhaps Reimer and Dubnyk can be a great one two punch?

My idea...

To Edmonton:
Cody Franson
James Reimer

To Toronto:
Ryan Jones
Magnus Paajarvi

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Old
11-20-2012, 11:50 PM
  #48
WeridAl
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
What about a different type a deal between these 2 teams?

If a deal goes down between Toronto and Vancouver for Luongo, and Burke decides to let Reimer go somewhere to have an opportunity at a #1 spot, Edmonton is a viable location as they have a bunch of youth that can grow together.

Khabby isn't the goalie he used to be and Dubnyk doesn't seem to be the capable of handling the #1 spot (not that he hasn't done an admirable job). But perhaps Reimer and Dubnyk can be a great one two punch?

My idea...

To Edmonton:
Cody Franson
James Reimer

To Toronto:
Ryan Jones
Magnus Paajarvi
Brutal, Franson is a 7th D and is Reimer is a questionable goalie. They wouldn't even get you Paajarvi alone. Tambo passes out laughing after hanging up.

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Old
11-20-2012, 11:51 PM
  #49
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I've proposed a similar deal in the past and Leaf fans weren't overly interested. As many Leaf fans commented, they need sandpaper more than skill and Kulemin plays a hard game with a bit of skill. Something I saw in this thread gave me hope though, and that's the potential threeway with VAN involving Luongo. A Nucks fan even sounded receptive contingent on a plus going their way. Here's my crack at it.

To VAN: Hemsky, EDM and TOR 3rd rders 2012

To EDM: Kulemin

To TOR: Luongo

The Oil give up a pick because they are gaining greater cap flexibility (2.2mil difference between Hemmer and Kuli). Toronto gives up a pick because they are getting the best player in the deal. Vancouver gets a guy that - if healthy (big if, I know) - has proven to be near a ppg player and would be a nice compliment to Kesler and Booth.

I am loathe to give up a healthy and motivated Hemsky, but I feel Kulemin would be a better fit with Yakupov, even if he never returns to his 30 goal season (would be more than happy with a 20-20 guy who creates space and takes care of his own end).

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Old
11-20-2012, 11:53 PM
  #50
iPunch
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Since when does Toronto need topline talent on the wing? They need defensively responsible depth more than anything, which is what Kulemin brings.

Trade doesn't make sense for the Leafs.

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