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Old
11-20-2012, 09:27 AM
  #76
Hawkaholic
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Originally Posted by CSimpson18 View Post
Yeah that's what I said. Opinion doesn't match mine, ignore.
You are confusing 'mine' with 'everyones'.

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11-20-2012, 10:08 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by RomersWorld View Post
Hawkaholic is right about Martini...his opinion goes against anyone who understands the game of hockey including the reporters, announcers and others who watch Rockford. Leddy has been incredible and oozes potential. His skating is already elite at an NHL level.
Your gonna have to post some proof of what you said that is highlighted considering I live in Rockford and what I have posted here is pretty much the same thoughts of the players here by most of the media here. The simple fact that Rockford is a place where players develop, and Leddy hasnt done step one in developing his defensive game should be reason enough to think that maybe he was rushed into the NHL to compensate the fact the Hawks traded away a much better player in Brian Campbell. Leddy, a cheaper alternative to a much, much better player, is playing, right now in Rockford, at his skill set. A one demisional defenseman who is a complete sieve in his own zone whom Hawk fans have placed in their top four means the Hawks top four is pretty bad. The best defensive pairing in the NHL, then Hammer, who is respectable, and Leddy? Yeah, sorry. Thats a bad top four. If Nick Leddy is in your top four, and this is after watching him play in the NHL last year, you have a couple problems.

And, as a STH for the Hogs, I might be the only person here who has been to every home game and seen Leddy in action with my own eyes. He just isnt that good outside of the PP. The league has adapted to him, so this whole "men among boys" folly is just that.

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Old
11-20-2012, 12:05 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Martini View Post
Your gonna have to post some proof of what you said that is highlighted considering I live in Rockford and what I have posted here is pretty much the same thoughts of the players here by most of the media here. The simple fact that Rockford is a place where players develop, and Leddy hasnt done step one in developing his defensive game should be reason enough to think that maybe he was rushed into the NHL to compensate the fact the Hawks traded away a much better player in Brian Campbell. Leddy, a cheaper alternative to a much, much better player, is playing, right now in Rockford, at his skill set. A one demisional defenseman who is a complete sieve in his own zone whom Hawk fans have placed in their top four means the Hawks top four is pretty bad. The best defensive pairing in the NHL, then Hammer, who is respectable, and Leddy? Yeah, sorry. Thats a bad top four. If Nick Leddy is in your top four, and this is after watching him play in the NHL last year, you have a couple problems.

And, as a STH for the Hogs, I might be the only person here who has been to every home game and seen Leddy in action with my own eyes. He just isnt that good outside of the PP. The league has adapted to him, so this whole "men among boys" folly is just that.
That's funny, another guy on our board who lives in Rockford and has been to almost every game disagrees with you too.

All of your assessments of our AHL players have been completely wrong (save maybe Beach). Just stop. No Hawk fans take anything you say seriously.

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11-20-2012, 01:03 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
That's funny, another guy on our board who lives in Rockford and has been to almost every game disagrees with you too.
Um, ok? One thing I have realised while pandering on the Hawk forum here is how every prospect is cant miss and every young player is better then they actually are. Its opinion and opinion alone while when I give mine they are not behind rose colored glasses. Trying to say Leddy is a "man among boys" while he has been in the A, and has, to an extent, regressed, using his skating and his skating only to try and find a way out of his defensive zone is almost as inpet as trying to say he is a top four defenseman other then by default. While trying to knock a young defenseman that Oiler fans have high hopes on who has been a pivotal player at every level he has played is comedic, to say the least.
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
All of your assessments of our AHL players have been completely wrong (save maybe Beach). Just stop. No Hawk fans take anything you say seriously.
Those same Hawk fans wanted to waste a first round pick on David Toews for some odd reason. So, in that sense, thank god for that.

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11-20-2012, 01:50 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Martini View Post
Um, ok? One thing I have realised while pandering on the Hawk forum here is how every prospect is cant miss and every young player is better then they actually are. Its opinion and opinion alone while when I give mine they are not behind rose colored glasses. Trying to say Leddy is a "man among boys" while he has been in the A, and has, to an extent, regressed, using his skating and his skating only to try and find a way out of his defensive zone is almost as inpet as trying to say he is a top four defenseman other then by default. While trying to knock a young defenseman that Oiler fans have high hopes on who has been a pivotal player at every level he has played is comedic, to say the least.

Those same Hawk fans wanted to waste a first round pick on David Toews for some odd reason. So, in that sense, thank god for that.
What? Who?

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Old
11-20-2012, 02:09 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Martini View Post
Um, ok? One thing I have realised while pandering on the Hawk forum here is how every prospect is cant miss and every young player is better then they actually are. Its opinion and opinion alone while when I give mine they are not behind rose colored glasses. Trying to say Leddy is a "man among boys" while he has been in the A, and has, to an extent, regressed, using his skating and his skating only to try and find a way out of his defensive zone is almost as inpet as trying to say he is a top four defenseman other then by default. While trying to knock a young defenseman that Oiler fans have high hopes on who has been a pivotal player at every level he has played is comedic, to say the least.

Those same Hawk fans wanted to waste a first round pick on David Toews for some odd reason. So, in that sense, thank god for that
.
Not one fan has said anything of the sort, which just shows how good your credibility actually is.

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Old
11-20-2012, 02:50 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
You are confusing 'mine' with 'everyones'.
Based on the really biased posts of yours that I've read I think that might be exactly what you're doing.

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Old
11-20-2012, 03:38 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by The Nuge View Post
that's HF for you. It's right up there with "Player X isn't on my team so he's crap"
Yeah.. in the case of Martini it's fair to ignore what he says. He argued all of last year that Marcus Kruger was such a sissy soft Euro that he wouldn't be able to hack it in the AHL which he called a "man's league". An NHL player wouldn't be able to handle the AHL? Yeah right.

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Old
11-20-2012, 03:45 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Yeah.. in the case of Martini it's fair to ignore what he says. He argued all of last year that Marcus Kruger was such a sissy soft Euro that he wouldn't be able to hack it in the AHL which he called a "man's league". An NHL player wouldn't be able to handle the AHL? Yeah right.
An opinion that he has maintained this season, even with Kruger as the third leading scorer on the Icehogs.

It's not right to blindly ignore people's opinions, but you can't consider everyone's as being equally valid. Whether they have season tickets or not.

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11-20-2012, 04:35 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by RomersWorld View Post
Hawkaholic is right about Martini...his opinion goes against anyone who understands the game of hockey including the reporters, announcers and others who watch Rockford. Leddy has been incredible and oozes potential. His skating is already elite at an
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Yeah.. in the case of Martini it's fair to ignore what he says. He argued all of last year that Marcus Kruger was such a sissy soft Euro that he wouldn't be able to hack it in the AHL which he called a "man's league". An NHL player wouldn't be able to handle the AHL? Yeah right.
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Originally Posted by CSimpson18 View Post
Based on the really biased posts of yours that I've read I think that might be exactly what you're doing.
You should visit the Rockford thread on the Hawks board for more.

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Old
11-20-2012, 04:40 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
So when I predict something it's "too early to tell", but when you say he isn't a future bottom pairing Dman, its fact?

If Marcinin is so great, why hasn't he cracked the pathetic blueline in EDM? He's played 20 games in the AHL, 0 in the NHL. He hasn't shown squat yet.
LMAO that "pathetic blueline in EDM" let in ONE more goal last year than the Hawks did.


Goals against:
EDM: 239
CHI: 238

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11-20-2012, 08:13 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by The Red Line View Post
LMAO that "pathetic blueline in EDM" let in ONE more goal last year than the Hawks did.


Goals against:
EDM: 239
CHI: 238
This is the exact reason Hawks need to keep Danault. He might be the best defensive forward in junior right now. Though he doesn't score much in international competition, the opposing team's top line doesn't score much either. Marcinin is not what the Hawks need, they already have plenty of offensive dmen who aren't even close to the end of their time with the team.

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Old
11-20-2012, 08:58 PM
  #88
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I'll keep Marincin without thinking twice. Tremendous potential.

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Old
11-21-2012, 12:18 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Sevanston View Post
Who was playing a physical game on Chicago's backend in 2010 besides Seabrook? Brian Campbell? Brent Sopel? For forwards, Byfuglien, Brouwer, and Ladd could all lay hits, but the strength of that team was never its physical play, it was its puck possession.

The point wasn't about physical teams either. It was about physical players. Hockey fans pop boners like 13-year-old boys as soon as they read the word "physical" about a player, or if a player is listed as being taller than 6'1". When a prospect is listed as being 6'6", what's your first though about how he plays (or how you want him to play)?

There's this false belief that physical play makes someone an exponentially better player, and it leads to tons of overrating.
Great post. To further your argument, here's a look at it statistically. http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...s-slow-big-ice

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Old
11-21-2012, 01:05 AM
  #90
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Great post. To further your argument, here's a look at it statistically. http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...s-slow-big-ice
Yes and no, the Wings greatly impacted that data.

It should also be noted that Holland and Nill have both talked about and drafted bigger here recently. The game is changing in a large part do to the cap. With the parity entering they see a trend. I am not saying the right group cannot win, but when you write a giant article and use the Wings as your example, it does look a little silly when they themselves have said it has a greater impact than it used to.

You don't need to be overly big but you do need the guys to play a physical role and be willing to take a physical pounding. Many of the Wings undersized guys would run themselves through players or get crunched to make a play. Draper played like a 200 lbs foward, Maltby played much bigger. Even guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg play much harder than their frame suggests or their reputation.

They still value skill, but that isn't all they value anymore. That should be a sign of the times. The Wings draft based on where they see value is low. They have started taking college players and heavily mining the Q. Also another huge target area is the Czech Republic and Slovakia. Sure they still take the occasional Swede, but they move the target. It is something they have always done. The other thing they do is trust scouting reports going into a season. They take guys that had rough draft years or went down to injury. They are comfortable with it. But make no mistake they too are taking guys with more size and rougher games.

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Old
11-21-2012, 05:31 AM
  #91
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I like Marincin and his upside and the little little I saw from him... but he isn't close to Leddy or Leddys upside.

Leddy was a former Top20 Pick, already made the NHL and was #25 in D scoring without experience or anything. He will only get better and is Rockfords best player this year.


I'm with the other CHI fans about Martini. He lost all his crediblitly and his opinion is very different from everybody elses. Nobody agrees with him, nobody takes him seriously. Being Arrogant and thinking he is the only guy that sees the games is another part. Too bad that this year we all can see 50+ % of the Ice Hogs games. We now know the "taking it with a grain of salt" is for sure.


Danault is a guy you keep on your roster. Those unsung hero type of player. Will do everything he can to help the team win without getting much attention. He will be a very usefull player for the Hawks in one role or another.


Hawks system is fine the way it is. They have Keith & Seabrook longterm. Leddy won't go anywhere soon and Hjammer is a proven Top4 guy. For depth, you sign Vets that want to win and win now. Don't need that blue chip prospects on the back end with 2 Top15 DMen in the NHL + young guy that would be a blue chip prospect, but graduated already

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Old
11-21-2012, 09:12 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by The Red Line View Post
LMAO that "pathetic blueline in EDM" let in ONE more goal last year than the Hawks did.


Goals against:
EDM: 239
CHI: 238
Ya, the bad GA for CHI was because of their blueline and not their league worst goaltending.

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Old
11-21-2012, 09:58 AM
  #93
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Yes and no, the Wings greatly impacted that data.

It should also be noted that Holland and Nill have both talked about and drafted bigger here recently. The game is changing in a large part do to the cap. With the parity entering they see a trend. I am not saying the right group cannot win, but when you write a giant article and use the Wings as your example, it does look a little silly when they themselves have said it has a greater impact than it used to.

You don't need to be overly big but you do need the guys to play a physical role and be willing to take a physical pounding. Many of the Wings undersized guys would run themselves through players or get crunched to make a play. Draper played like a 200 lbs foward, Maltby played much bigger. Even guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg play much harder than their frame suggests or their reputation.

They still value skill, but that isn't all they value anymore. That should be a sign of the times. The Wings draft based on where they see value is low. They have started taking college players and heavily mining the Q. Also another huge target area is the Czech Republic and Slovakia. Sure they still take the occasional Swede, but they move the target. It is something they have always done. The other thing they do is trust scouting reports going into a season. They take guys that had rough draft years or went down to injury. They are comfortable with it. But make no mistake they too are taking guys with more size and rougher games.
There's a difference between being able to handle physical play and being able to dish it out.

I'd argue that there's not a single player in the NHL that can't deal with physical play. Hockey is a physical game, and the ones that can't handle it when others get physical with them will get weeded out long before they reach the NHL. Even players like Patrick Kane have ways of dealing with it when players try to lay hits on them (common euphemisms for this skill are words like "shifty"). Small guys like Marcus Kruger and Andrew Shaw aren't shifty at at all, but they have no problem taking hits and bouncing right back up and going back to take another one as long as they make the play.

In my opinion, being able to dish out physical play leads to overrating of certain players far beyond what their skill merits. The same is true for large players, who are often just assumed to be physical players (or else they can be molded into them).

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Old
11-23-2012, 03:01 PM
  #94
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Ya, the bad GA for CHI was because of their blueline and not their league worst goaltending.
Love the excuses. Keep em coming.

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Old
11-23-2012, 05:44 PM
  #95
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Ya, the bad GA for CHI was because of their blueline and not their league worst goaltending.
The problem is the correlation between the two.

You play bad defense, leak chances against, and your goaltending stats are obviously going to go down. So part of it is defense and part is poor goaltending.

The Oilers didn't exactly have all-star goaltending either, so pretty comparable IMO.

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Old
11-24-2012, 02:53 PM
  #96
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The problem is the correlation between the two.

You play bad defense, leak chances against, and your goaltending stats are obviously going to go down. So part of it is defense and part is poor goaltending.

The Oilers didn't exactly have all-star goaltending either, so pretty comparable IMO.
K Let's swap goalies then, Dubnyk for Crawford.


Fact of the matter is, Crawford was part of the problem early on, he had stretches of good play at the end when he decided just to play deep in his net but he came out a lot at the beginning of the year and got beat often. I wouldn't expect you to know that but Crawford was part of the problem last year. The goaltending situation got so bad that we started Ray Emery consistently in stretches.

I don't see why saying, no this trade would not be good for the Blackhawks irks Oilers fans. Danault is what the Hawks need, Marincin wouldn't feel a need for the Blackhawks. That's all that's been said..

Leddy has been on and off the ice with injuries at Rockford but has looked solid. So has Clendening. The Hawks have several #3/4 Dmen in their system and that's what they need...

Keep in mind that Leddy and Hjalmarsson are < 28 and Olsen is there to use in a pinch. The Hawks did a nice job acquiring Rozsival for their 3rd pairing, Brookbank can be used in a pinch....

That's IF we even have hockey this year though.

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Old
11-24-2012, 06:03 PM
  #97
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As much as I disagree with his overall assessment, I do believe that it is valid to comment on goaltending in this situation. For the same reason that many Oilers fans consider Dubnyk to be 'better than the stats indicate' (I am in this camp), the inverse can also be true for Chicago. Goaltending has been a struggle there. Regardless, I think Marincin is pretty well a baby-step away from being an impact player. Whether he can take that step, who knows - you never know anything for certain in the NHL. Sure looks good though.

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Old
11-25-2012, 02:12 AM
  #98
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I don't think anyone is stupid enough to argue the Hawks goaltending has been great or even good for that matter.

It was only her brought up because someone felt the need to call the Oilers D pathetic, which led someone to point out they essentially had the same goals against last year.

Goaltending is always a part of it, but no matter which way you look at it it also reveals defensive weaknesses as well. That doesn't mean they need Marincin though, it's safe to say each team prefers and needs their own guy more right now.

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11-25-2012, 02:26 AM
  #99
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I definitely would not trade Marincin for Danault... Marty's an absolute stud this year for the Barons!

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11-25-2012, 06:06 PM
  #100
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That's funny, another guy on our board who lives in Rockford and has been to almost every game disagrees with you too.


Oh my, what a pathetic argument!


Last edited by spiny norman: 11-25-2012 at 07:26 PM. Reason: corrected [/QUOTE]
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