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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part VII: The Last Waltz "Cut the sheet & drop the puck!"

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Old
11-20-2012, 07:07 PM
  #276
Riche16
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
And yet sad, and very true.

I keep thinking tomorrow is super important... Can't decide if it really is or if the media is starting to draw lines in the sand (and therefore the fans are as well). Maybe when talks breakdown tomorrow all it becomes is another round of cancellations. There's no cliff there... Not yet anyway.

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11-20-2012, 07:13 PM
  #277
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See this is the stuff I don't understand. Nothing is official until it gets formalized into contracts.

If players are not sure what the response is, offer it anyways. If you do not get what you want, take it off the table.

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11-20-2012, 07:15 PM
  #278
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If players are not sure what the response is, offer it anyways. If you do not get what you want, take it off the table.
They tried that last time with the rollback. Then they couldn't take it back. They don't trust Bettman so they are not going to offer anything.

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11-20-2012, 07:33 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by turcotte8 View Post
They tried that last time with the rollback. Then they couldn't take it back. They don't trust Bettman so they are not going to offer anything.
Here's my view:

If the PA offers almost nothing then why meet? No new proposals will send the message loud and clear. Under this scenario the meeting will not last 5 minutes and It would be a great time to start a 2 week hiatus.

My gut tells me that the players are interested in a season. They will throw out some interesting ideas and my guess is that they will be met with a receptive NHL group who also wishes to end the lockout.

Cross your fingers.

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11-20-2012, 08:01 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by turcotte8 View Post
They tried that last time with the rollback. Then they couldn't take it back. They don't trust Bettman so they are not going to offer anything.
You are right but I will point out that they have, both sides, offered a bit. No trust. I'm not sure why the league is so reluctant. Maybe its fehr or the notion that the players are looking for a "win".

As a pro player guy, I think their move now should be to propose that consensus, fair offer. Lay it out there, tell them this is it, and let the sponsors and moderate owners pressure the hawks. 50%, 5% variance, 8-10 year limit, no AHL counting to cap, 27/7, and either a 5% cap on escrow for two seasons or make whole with some growth built in.

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11-20-2012, 09:00 PM
  #281
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http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/blog/ey...hings-they-say

Quote:
On Monday, Florida Panthers forward Kris Versteeg declared on TSN Radio that Gary Bettman and Bill Daly were “cancers” and have been "polluting this game for far too long."

Last Friday, Detroit Red Wings defenseman Ian White called Bettman an “idiot” and said the commissioner had "done nothing but damage the game."
Two idiots. Almost as bad as Chris "I'm a gazillionaire" Chelios threatening Bettman's family in 1994.

Bettman's a turd but these clown players have to remember who brokered massive TV deals with FOX and ABC, helped the average player salary surpass the NFL, and ended the dark Days of Harold Ballard, Bill Wirtz and Peter Pocklington who Ziegler allowed to choke every penny out of the players for decades.

Bettman's the least of their problems.

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Old
11-20-2012, 09:07 PM
  #282
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The players are getting greedy. Sports fans will no longer wax poetic about NHL'ers genuineness. That ship has sailed. If there's a fan out there who still buys into the crap about NHL'ers are just humble farm boys who play for the love of the sport, I got a nice piece of property along the IED-potholed Highway 1 in Kabul I'd like to sell you.

I feel bad for the non-playing employees who work the ticket windows, concessions etc. Especially here in New York and NJ where some of them got messed up by Sandy. But you never hear about them. All you hear about is a millionaire idiot like Kris Versteeg crying about the horror of underemployment.

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11-20-2012, 09:13 PM
  #283
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People say MacGwire and Sosa saved baseball from the 1994 strike. They didn't. That was 1998. Baseball slowly recovered because it's a summer game and there's nothing else to do from July until September.

Hockey won't have that luxury. Here in America, people are over it already and could care less if hockey comes back or not. The NBA has really distanced itself from the NHL, which is crazy when you consider how people were saying the NHL was on the rise again midway through the 2012 postseason.

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11-20-2012, 09:16 PM
  #284
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Kris Versteeg of the Florida Panthers said that? Whoa.

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11-20-2012, 09:31 PM
  #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/blog/ey...hings-they-say



Two idiots. Almost as bad as Chris "I'm a gazillionaire" Chelios threatening Bettman's family in 1994.

Bettman's a turd but these clown players have to remember who brokered massive TV deals with FOX and ABC, helped the average player salary surpass the NFL, and ended the dark Days of Harold Ballard, Bill Wirtz and Peter Pocklington who Ziegler allowed to choke every penny out of the players for decades.

Bettman's the least of their problems.
Kris Versteeg and Ian White should be thinking about what they'd be doing if they didnt play hockey for millions a year.

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11-20-2012, 09:42 PM
  #286
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I understand their frustrations, but keep things in perspective.

Brad Richards has clout. His words mean something. He's keeping himself busy helping people out in Rockaway. Versteeg? He is the exception and not the rule. I'm going to guess most of these guys just want to play because they know they'll make their money no matter who the commissioner is. Trying to blame the commissioner for this mess is like a butcher blaming God for Raccoons raiding his dumpster every night.

I mean, what do the players think, that there's a ebtter option than Bettman?

The NFL players hate Goodell. MLB players want to put Bud Selig in an space pod and zap him into a nearby galaxy with no oxygen. Thinking the players of any sport like their commissioner is like thinking a high school pot dealer should like his principal.

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11-20-2012, 09:45 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Kris Versteeg and Ian White should be thinking about what they'd be doing if they didnt play hockey for millions a year.
They'd be running anger management seminars.

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11-20-2012, 10:22 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
I understand their frustrations, but keep things in perspective.

Brad Richards has clout. His words mean something. He's keeping himself busy helping people out in Rockaway. Versteeg? He is the exception and not the rule. I'm going to guess most of these guys just want to play because they know they'll make their money no matter who the commissioner is. Trying to blame the commissioner for this mess is like a butcher blaming God for Raccoons raiding his dumpster every night.

I mean, what do the players think, that there's a ebtter option than Bettman?

The NFL players hate Goodell. MLB players want to put Bud Selig in an space pod and zap him into a nearby galaxy with no oxygen. Thinking the players of any sport like their commissioner is like thinking a high school pot dealer should like his principal.
Probably. They probably think there's a better option than Fehr too.

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Old
11-21-2012, 02:55 AM
  #289
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I'd like to just say that all of you who manages to still keep up with the lockout info and updates are... Very patient and willed or crazy

As dead of a horse as I've seen

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Old
11-21-2012, 04:02 AM
  #290
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Versteeg is a talented player. There is a reason why he has been on so many teams in his career so far. Bruins. Hawks. Leafs. Flyers. Panthers.

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11-21-2012, 04:06 AM
  #291
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Larry says 2 year ELCs are also a must have in addition to the cheating contracts.

Quote:
Despite the smorgasbord of contract systems restrictions the league has presented in an attempt to turn back the clock a couple of decades on NHL freedom, it is believed — but not confirmed — that the only two must-haves are elimination of front-loaded contracts and reducing entry- level contracts to two years.

Even if yielding on freedom issues in order to be allowed to take a smaller share of the pie amounts to a dog’s breakfast for the players, these specific areas should not represent deal breakers for the union’s rank-and-file.

Indeed, the NHLPA would be wise to propose an entry-level system that eliminates bonuses and would thus open up cap space for veterans and reduce entry-level players’ impact on escrow.

The Oilers, for example, have five players on entry level deals — Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, Nail Yakupov, Taylor Hall, Jordan Eberle and Justin Schultz — whose 2012-13 base salaries amount to $4,462,500 but whose cap hits, including bonuses, equal $16.233 million. Eliminating entry-level bonuses would thus open over $11.77 million in cap space for the Oilers. Finding ways to open cap space is a fundamental requirement for the union if operating under a system in which veterans on the market will be squeezed under a lower ceiling.
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_...sjn1xQLkeu7LTJ

2 year ELC doesn't allow a player to have the stats for a big 2nd contract.

Eliminating those bonuses frees up money for veteran players. The players keep arbitration after 4 years and free agency at 7 or 27.

The NHL proposed eliminating performance bonuses be used to help teams reach the floor. Unreachable bonuses. Teams would be required to actually spend the cash on the floor.

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Old
11-21-2012, 04:09 AM
  #292
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I donít expect a deal to be announced Wednesday, after that dayís crucial meetings in New York. I think weíll see one last retreat to their corners, a little pot-shotting from each corner to the other, and then one last meeting soon. But by then, I think weíll finally see a deal. Iíll say we start the season on Sat., Dec. 15. See you then for a live chat at the Avs game
http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2012...endgame/11900/

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11-21-2012, 05:29 AM
  #293
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gWGegS8ntU

Kris Versteeg makes $4 million a year in this league. He also makes turnovers like the above (what an awesome game this was). He should be grateful that players like him make that much in this league.

I'm praying today is the turning point in the negotiations, I'm sick of the no hockey BS.

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Old
11-21-2012, 05:54 AM
  #294
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In the 2 year ELC offer,there is one exception.

From October 16 NHL proposal

Quote:
There were several contradicting reports out there Tuesday regarding the entry-level system, but multiple sources confirmed the new proposal would see ELS go from three years to two years in length. The one caveat is that if youíre a player for example thatís coming from college and joining your NHL team late in the season -- think Chris Kreider of the Rangers -- that doesnít count against your two-year, entry-level commitment. You would still have to play two full seasons under an entry-level deal. What the offer Tuesday laid out is two full seasons of entry level.
http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...agues-proposal

Jack Johnson is another example. Austin Smith and Jaden Schwartz too. Player agents want NHL teams to play their college free agent clients in 1 game after leaving school so its counts as 1 season off the ELC.

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11-21-2012, 06:32 AM
  #295
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Yes, the players want to get back to playing, but they also don't want to wave the white towel by offering up a proposal that the NHL is going to rush to accept. The players are willing to go to a 50-50 revenue split, but they want to make sure all contracts are honoured.

Even if the players do give up more on the core economic issues, including the 'Make Whole' for existing contracts, then the two sides still have to get past the contract issues which the league has maintained are non-negotiable because the two sides are past the point of give and take.
http://www.ottawasun.com/2012/11/20/...w-cba-proposal

The NHL increasing the make whole satisfies the players desire of all contracts being honored.

Bill Daly indicated the NHL will be flexible if the economics are right. We have seen reports about what the NHL wants in the contract rights stuff.

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11-21-2012, 09:04 AM
  #296
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
http://www.ottawasun.com/2012/11/20/...w-cba-proposal

The NHL increasing the make whole satisfies the players desire of all contracts being honored.

Bill Daly indicated the NHL will be flexible if the economics are right. We have seen reports about what the NHL wants in the contract rights stuff.
Where does everything stand in terms of the "make whole" in regards to linked vs de linked system?

In other words, has the NHLPA come off their ludicrous demans of having owners play the full $1.8B plus interest) this season regardless of how many games are played or what HRR winds up being?

I don't see any possible deal being made that guarantees players the money they would have earned this season.
If they play 2/3 of the season, than perhaps there is a way NHL will pay players the full 2/3 of their salary owed, but if players are insisting on full face value of contracts there cannot possibly be a deal.

Have we gotten beyond that and I missed it somewhere?

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11-21-2012, 09:27 AM
  #297
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Chris Johnston ‏@reporterchris
The NHLPA has arrived.

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11-21-2012, 09:33 AM
  #298
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Chris Johnston ‏@reporterchris
The NHLPA has arrived.
Big day.

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Old
11-21-2012, 09:36 AM
  #299
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Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger

PA moves off its position on guaranteed players share dollars + shifts more to the owners demand of a percentage base in the revenue split.

Bob McKenzie ‏@TSNBobMcKenzie

We're also hearing the NHLPA proposal will work off a percentage of HRR -- as requested by NHL -- and not a guaranteed dollar amount.

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11-21-2012, 09:43 AM
  #300
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Originally Posted by turcotte8 View Post
Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger

PA moves off its position on guaranteed players share dollars + shifts more to the owners demand of a percentage base in the revenue split.

Bob McKenzie ‏@TSNBobMcKenzie

We're also hearing the NHLPA proposal will work off a percentage of HRR -- as requested by NHL -- and not a guaranteed dollar amount.
That sounds like progress to me

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