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Old
11-19-2012, 10:47 PM
  #501
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I don't know man. Somehow, I feel that for everybody who thinks DD's only reason to have been so succesful last year was because we sucked so much. Yet, that principle doesn't apply to Kaberle? The same Kaberle who was a liability on a Stanley Cup winning team? The same Kaberle who was called "one of my biggest mistake" by a GM?

I couldn't care less about Spacek the player. But would have gladly take his salary to improve my team and try to diversify it a little more as in getting some tougher d-man on the back end.

And for Kaberle...it's 31 points and -18. But I guess he had ALL the toughest matchups.
22 points in 43 games on the worst team in the east playing with amazing talent the likes of Weber, Diaz and the incredible CAMPOLI! Ya I am sure he had some tough matchups, watching ******* Subban telegraph his onetimers all night and then miss the net by ten feet would be tough on anyone.

I care about that GM's comments like I care about the next episode of twilight. Any GM that signs a guy from a new team straight off a stanley cup win and then throws him to the wolves within 30 games is a clown. Tell me more about your love of Gainey if you want a comparable.

DD played with some incredible talent and the chemistry clicked. I don't believe DD is a first line centre, I don't really care about his stats. If the so called "knowledgeble" hockey fans here can't see Kaberle needs a defensive partner then they are beyond hope.

Kaberle was a liability on a brand new team yet he still tallied 11assists and was a +8 in 25 games and then that team tried to resign him? Sign me up for that "liability".

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11-19-2012, 11:21 PM
  #502
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
Spacek was largely useless for us except for one playoffs and the rest of the time injured because he was fragile. At least Kaberle gives us a deadly PP weapon but I hope Therrien doesn't use him a lot on ES (yikes.. don't know how that's going to work).
When Spacek was on the ice the Habs tended to be winning rather than be losing and he hardly played powerpuff assignments. He had an ugly style sure, but he was very effective at playing positional defense and moving the puck forward. Guy was +20 for the Habs during his 2+ years in Montreal.

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11-20-2012, 02:52 PM
  #503
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I don't know man. Somehow, I feel that for everybody who thinks DD's only reason to have been so succesful last year was because we sucked so much. Yet, that principle doesn't apply to Kaberle? The same Kaberle who was a liability on a Stanley Cup winning team? The same Kaberle who was called "one of my biggest mistake" by a GM?

I couldn't care less about Spacek the player. But would have gladly take his salary to improve my team and try to diversify it a little more as in getting some tougher d-man on the back end.

And for Kaberle...it's 31 points and -18. But I guess he had ALL the toughest matchups.
+- is a stat that depends on team play more than any other.

Kaberle was +6 in 24 regular season and +8 in 25 playoff games in Boston. Pro rate that to 82 games and you have +23.

He isn't the grestest defensively but he can hold his own if you give him a reliable stay at home partner in a 2nd or 3rd pair situation. Plus he still brings top flight offensive skill, once he got in shape the last 45 games last year he went 3-23-26(47 point pace) and -4 despite playing on a team that plumetted in the standings.

People are too quick to judge him on his 1st half struggles in Carolina, he still had solid numbers with up and down ice time(played with 7 d-men most nights) and poorly fit partners.

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11-20-2012, 02:54 PM
  #504
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
When Spacek was on the ice the Habs tended to be winning rather than be losing and he hardly played powerpuff assignments. He had an ugly style sure, but he was very effective at playing positional defense and moving the puck forward. Guy was +20 for the Habs during his 2+ years in Montreal.
The team also played a lot better(09-10 and 10-11) than they did in the 2nd half last year, and I'm sure it wasn't because we switched Spacek for Kaberle.

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11-20-2012, 03:02 PM
  #505
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I'd rather have Kaberle than Weber or Spacek.

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11-20-2012, 03:05 PM
  #506
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The team also played a lot better(09-10 and 10-11) than they did in the 2nd half last year, and I'm sure it wasn't because we switched Spacek for Kaberle.
The point was that Spacek was easily outperforming the team at even strength throughout his time in Montreal, not as a comparison to Kaberle. Spacek was a big part of keeping that defense semi-functional before the rise of Subban. He and Hamrlik were pretty credible as a shutdown pairing.

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11-20-2012, 03:23 PM
  #507
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I'd rather have Kaberle than Weber or Spacek.
Hmm, that's a "do I feel lucky" question for me. I still dare to hope that Kaberle has some upside to rebound and therefore give us more than Spacek or Weber. But I don't feel like he has yet been a better player than those two. And then, when you factor in cap hits and what we might elsewise have been able to do with that cap space... wellllll... Kaberle is going to have to win me over. The opportunity is there. I don't feel lucky. But at least I haven't lost all hope.

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11-20-2012, 03:47 PM
  #508
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I'd definitely take Kaberle over Weber without hestitation. Weber is still only on the team because of his "potential", he hasn't shown much outside of a few string of games here and there, he really is on the bubble. As for Kabere vs Spacek. Well it depends. Contracts aside and the way Spacek played near the end of his tenure here, I'd probably take Kaberle.

The problem for me isn't Kaberle, but more so how he's used (needs to play with a competent defensive defender) and his contract which I really don't think is anywhere as bad as what people make it out to be here. It's not his contract that prevents the team pursuing what they want (which hasn't even been a problem with the team since the lockout). It's more so the combination of large contracts which are a problem. Remove Gomez and I really couldn't care less about Kaberle's contract.

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11-20-2012, 06:01 PM
  #509
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The thing about Kabs is that he really has let himself go. He's no longer a definitive #1 and he's pretty timid on the ice so people just get mad when seeing the former Leafs' top D-man perform at a level decidedly lower than his peak. It's a sad reality but he's twice the athlete Spacek was (in both fitness and stature, dude's huge) and all things considered I think his hockey IQ is rather good.

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11-20-2012, 08:43 PM
  #510
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
I'd rather have Kaberle than Weber or Spacek.
In one game right now (as in a Game 7 scenario), I would tentatively agree with you... given Kaberle's established lack of commitment to offseason training, and that he's only ten games in to his 2012-2013 season, I'd be wary that his conditioning would be an issue.


But as a GM of an NHL team, it would be Weber hands down.

Kaberle, given his current level of play (going back 12-18months), is a bottom pairing pp specialist player. Factor in his contract and a salary cap system, and that makes him a player with very low value (see Spacek, J.).
Factor in his age, and there is really no reason why a GM would keep him over Y.Weber IF it came down to an "either/or" choice.

That we still have to pay for Kaberle and he brings equal or slightly greater immediate value to a team than Weber, then an owner with $$ on his mind might force a GM's hand...

but free of that, there is no reason I can see that a GM looking to build a consistently strong roster would hesitate for one second to jettison Kaberle (be it in a dump trade, or flat out buying him out) and keep Weber.

The gap, if there really is one today, is so small that the age/contract make it a no-brainer imo.

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11-21-2012, 02:57 AM
  #511
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
In one game right now (as in a Game 7 scenario), I would tentatively agree with you... given Kaberle's established lack of commitment to offseason training, and that he's only ten games in to his 2012-2013 season, I'd be wary that his conditioning would be an issue.


But as a GM of an NHL team, it would be Weber hands down.

Kaberle, given his current level of play (going back 12-18months), is a bottom pairing pp specialist player. Factor in his contract and a salary cap system, and that makes him a player with very low value (see Spacek, J.).
Factor in his age, and there is really no reason why a GM would keep him over Y.Weber IF it came down to an "either/or" choice.

That we still have to pay for Kaberle and he brings equal or slightly greater immediate value to a team than Weber, then an owner with $$ on his mind might force a GM's hand...

but free of that, there is no reason I can see that a GM looking to build a consistently strong roster would hesitate for one second to jettison Kaberle (be it in a dump trade, or flat out buying him out) and keep Weber.

The gap, if there really is one today, is so small that the age/contract make it a no-brainer imo.
You have no idea just how bad Weber was last year and this one. Kabs is miles (miles!) ahead of him as a hockey player.

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11-21-2012, 04:40 AM
  #512
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
In one game right now (as in a Game 7 scenario), I would tentatively agree with you... given Kaberle's established lack of commitment to offseason training, and that he's only ten games in to his 2012-2013 season, I'd be wary that his conditioning would be an issue.


But as a GM of an NHL team, it would be Weber hands down.

Kaberle, given his current level of play (going back 12-18months), is a bottom pairing pp specialist player. Factor in his contract and a salary cap system, and that makes him a player with very low value (see Spacek, J.).
Factor in his age, and there is really no reason why a GM would keep him over Y.Weber IF it came down to an "either/or" choice.

That we still have to pay for Kaberle and he brings equal or slightly greater immediate value to a team than Weber, then an owner with $$ on his mind might force a GM's hand...

but free of that, there is no reason I can see that a GM looking to build a consistently strong roster would hesitate for one second to jettison Kaberle (be it in a dump trade, or flat out buying him out) and keep Weber.

The gap, if there really is one today, is so small that the age/contract make it a no-brainer imo.
The only thing Weber has on Kaberle is that he's cheap, but this can be said of any ''low salary'' players.

Last year's ''bad Kaberle'' is probably what Weber can hope to achieve at the height of his career. Kaberle on a good day is infinitely better than Weber can ever hope to be. The consistently strong roster you are talking about would not have Weber in its lineup, not even as a 7th D.

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11-21-2012, 06:29 AM
  #513
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22 points in 43 games on the worst team in the east playing with amazing talent the likes of Weber, Diaz and the incredible CAMPOLI! Ya I am sure he had some tough matchups, watching ******* Subban telegraph his onetimers all night and then miss the net by ten feet would be tough on anyone.

I care about that GM's comments like I care about the next episode of twilight. Any GM that signs a guy from a new team straight off a stanley cup win and then throws him to the wolves within 30 games is a clown. Tell me more about your love of Gainey if you want a comparable.

DD played with some incredible talent and the chemistry clicked. I don't believe DD is a first line centre, I don't really care about his stats. If the so called "knowledgeble" hockey fans here can't see Kaberle needs a defensive partner then they are beyond hope.

Kaberle was a liability on a brand new team yet he still tallied 11assists and was a +8 in 25 games and then that team tried to resign him? Sign me up for that "liability".
Thing is the same guys you're mentioning Kaberle had the displeasure to play with....well so were the other guys as well. Weber and Co didn't play either with defensive stars. My love of Gainey? You surely take me for somebody else...

So yes, Kaberle needs a defensive partner....but so would Subban, Diaz, Weber, and Co. But only 1 can play with Gorges. And that's the problem. With on top of that the possibilities of the young rookies coming soon, you would have thought that the veteran we would have acquired, would have been a go-to-guy. Not a 4 M$ guy that would depend on others. The day you decide to build somewhat of a future that might include Diaz in it (think Weber is probably up for a new start and don't start on Campoli who I thought was a joke to begin with...), and would also include the likes of Subban, Gorges and Markov, chances are what you would have needed with Spacek's money, is a stay-at-home defensive d-man who would have welcome a defensive liability beside him. Kaberle isn't the worst hockey player on the planet. But we could have done better and especially for that amount of money.

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11-21-2012, 06:31 AM
  #514
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
The only thing Weber has on Kaberle is that he's cheap, but this can be said of any ''low salary'' players.

Last year's ''bad Kaberle'' is probably what Weber can hope to achieve at the height of his career. Kaberle on a good day is infinitely better than Weber can ever hope to be. The consistently strong roster you are talking about would not have Weber in its lineup, not even as a 7th D.
Not exactly loving Weber, but comments are so unfair towards a young kid whose development was killed by making him a forward 1 times out of 2, and then not playing....or benched.....or back on D.....in front.....We'll never know what Weber's best could be 'cause he wasn't placed in a situation to show it.

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11-21-2012, 06:56 AM
  #515
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Not exactly loving Weber, but comments are so unfair towards a young kid whose development was killed by making him a forward 1 times out of 2, and then not playing....or benched.....or back on D.....in front.....We'll never know what Weber's best could be 'cause he wasn't placed in a situation to show it.
He's playing in the Swiss league and getting his ass beat (reportedly). This is his make or break season and he's a minus player on a plus team filled with scrubs. You can't blame the team for all his shortcomings, can you?

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11-21-2012, 09:57 AM
  #516
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I've all but given up on Weber but judging a player based entirely on +/- makes you sound like Patofqc

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11-21-2012, 10:00 AM
  #517
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I've all but given up on Weber but judging a player based entirely on +/- makes you sound like Patofqc
Why would anyone give up on Weber yet, especially with the state of our D and our best prospects on the 'Dogs looking like they will need at least an other year?

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11-21-2012, 10:06 AM
  #518
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Why would anyone give up on Weber yet, especially with the state of our D and our best prospects on the 'Dogs looking like they will need at least an other year?
If i'm a team that needs a # 5-6 D, I would definitely take a chance on him+ i'm sure the Habs would let him go for cheap and maybe regret it after that

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11-21-2012, 10:21 AM
  #519
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Why would anyone give up on Weber yet, especially with the state of our D and our best prospects on the 'Dogs looking like they will need at least an other year?
I'm fine giving him one more chance as I don't want to see a prospect rushed, but there's no point if he ends up being used as a winger again. The biggest problem is we have a lot of small defenders and Kaberle and Diaz have been more consistent. I actually think it's best for both Weber and the Habs to move him for a similar redemption project more suited for our needs, like a physical stay at home defender.

There's also a possibility that they will try to bring Nygren straight to the NHL when he's out of contract, as he's 22 already. I don't know his contract situation though.

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11-21-2012, 10:31 AM
  #520
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I've all but given up on Weber but judging a player based entirely on +/- makes you sound like Patofqc
Well I'm not at liberty to watch his games in the Swiss league, just basing my views on his (atrocious) play from last year and his stats from this one.

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Why would anyone give up on Weber yet, especially with the state of our D and our best prospects on the 'Dogs looking like they will need at least an other year?
The state of our D is no better or worse than any other team in the league. Seriously. Weber can "fit" on any team in the league and no team at the same time, it's called being the 7th d-man aka a warm body.

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If i'm a team that needs a # 5-6 D, I would definitely take a chance on him+ i'm sure the Habs would let him go for cheap and maybe regret it after that
We took a chance on him for two years now and he was plain bad. I don't have a bone to pick with him but you guys keep thinking he's some servicable dman when he's not. He's a liability.

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11-21-2012, 10:53 AM
  #521
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You have no idea just how bad Weber was last year and this one. Kabs is miles (miles!) ahead of him as a hockey player.
I don't know, the first couple months of Weber's season would rate very favourably against anything Kaberle did for us IMHO. It's true things went off for Weber after that. But I'd be at least as hopeful of a young player finding a way to become more consistent as I would for an old player to suddenly whip himself back into shape after a few seasons of sharp decline...

Anyway, at the right point in a season, I'd take "nothing" over Kaberle too, so it's not necessarily a ringing endorsement if I'd also take Weber. This is not that point in a season, however... we've already got our roster and payroll basically set (and even if a new season brought any requirements for changes, Gomez is far ahead on the purge list). It basically is a cap space question. Fading veterans or question marks like Roszival or Hannan signed for dramatically less ($2M/$1M) than Kaberle makes very late in the UFA season. You could scoop one up if ever needed without having to sock $4.25M space on a redundant-ish #5/6 D. Even if you didn't like using a cheap young Weber instead. And then you could pour the rest of the savings into some other area to improve the team. At the right time in the roster building cycle anyway, not now. It didn't happen before, so in the meantime Kaberle has another shot at redemption. We've heard that before. See if it works out for us this time, I guess.

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11-21-2012, 11:29 AM
  #522
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He's playing in the Swiss league and getting his ass beat (reportedly). This is his make or break season and he's a minus player on a plus team filled with scrubs. You can't blame the team for all his shortcomings, can you?
In NO WAY AM I COMPARING BOTH GUYS...(capital letters just in case somebody can't read...), but we did the same thing to a guy called Stéphane Robidas. Again, Weber will not come close to Robidas, yet, people underestimate the development of a D, what confidence does to young players and the NEED to play a guy regularly despite his shortcomings. Until you do realize that this player cannot give you more, or that player can indeed give you more than you thought. Possible that the inevitable conclusion is that Weber will never be more than a AHL-6th d-man NHL guy. My point is that in NO WAY, he was put in a situation with us for us to know that. And again, I never was a Weber fan. But I will always repeat the same thing, whether it's a player I like or not. Everybody needs to be in a position to succeed. If you did so and it doesn't work with us, well so be it, EVEN if it means succeeding elsewhere. But not trying a guy enough here to let him go and see them succeed elsewhere? Makes no sense, ESPECIALLY since we were never a force to be reckon with. In a situation where you are a top 3 team for the last 5 years, well so be it, chances are you'd let a guy go without seeing him enough 'cause there are just no spots left. Thing is, for such a long time, this team has been an average team all those years and yet, there never seems to be able to have spots available.....

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11-21-2012, 09:20 PM
  #523
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You have no idea just how bad Weber was last year and this one. Kabs is miles (miles!) ahead of him as a hockey player.
?
you're assuming i didn't watch any habs hockey last year?

Kaberle is a more experienced player, who aside from the security of a massive contract and the roster stability it afforded him regardless of his level of play, also possess the ability/confidence to do one thing well. on a terrible team, that's enough to get regular minutes.

Weber didn't have the luxury of being able to play terribly and keep his minutes, and started the season playing for a coach notorious for being disproportionately hard on young players (in terms of limiting their minutes/keeping them on a short leash) as a result, despite decent play early on, his confidence crumbled and his performance worsened as the year progressed.

apparently i'm not the only one who noticed (see below... perhaps not the same causal explanation, but clearly another person who saw Weber play at a level as good as/better than Kaberle early on).

and again, in a 1-game scenario, fine, i can buy the argument for Kaberle.

but beyond that (and to be clear, i'd probably go with weber for that 1-game regardless... in his short career, he's shown himself to be effective & somewhat of a clutch offensive player in NHL playoffs), Weber is by far the more rational choice to keep on an NHL roster.



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I don't know, the first couple months of Weber's season would rate very favourably against anything Kaberle did for us IMHO. It's true things went off for Weber after that. But I'd be at least as hopeful of a young player finding a way to become more consistent as I would for an old player to suddenly whip himself back into shape after a few seasons of sharp decline...


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Anyway, at the right point in a season, I'd take "nothing" over Kaberle too, so it's not necessarily a ringing endorsement if I'd also take Weber. This is not that point in a season, however... we've already got our roster and payroll basically set (and even if a new season brought any requirements for changes, Gomez is far ahead on the purge list). It basically is a cap space question. Fading veterans or question marks like Roszival or Hannan signed for dramatically less ($2M/$1M) than Kaberle makes very late in the UFA season. You could scoop one up if ever needed without having to sock $4.25M space on a redundant-ish #5/6 D. Even if you didn't like using a cheap young Weber instead. And then you could pour the rest of the savings into some other area to improve the team. At the right time in the roster building cycle anyway, not now. It didn't happen before, so in the meantime Kaberle has another shot at redemption. We've heard that before. See if it works out for us this time, I guess.
so obvious, and yet somehow a large chunk of the fan base seem to ignore the financial realities of the NHL... perhaps the result of too much EA sports with the salary cap turned off?

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11-27-2012, 05:09 PM
  #524
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11-27-2012, 05:13 PM
  #525
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