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2012 CBA & Re-alignment: Lockout in Effect. Thanks Gary/Donald! PART II

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11-21-2012, 12:20 PM
  #801
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http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/86...hr-says-report

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11-21-2012, 01:24 PM
  #802
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Apparently the PA wants guarantees their share won't drop below the previous year in years 2-5 of the deal.

That's just dumb. The game is going to grow. Either you believe in it or you don't. Putting that into the proposal is just going to hold things up needlessly.

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11-21-2012, 01:52 PM
  #803
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Apparently the PA wants guarantees their share won't drop below the previous year in years 2-5 of the deal.

That's just dumb. The game is going to grow. Either you believe in it or you don't. Putting that into the proposal is just going to hold things up needlessly.
If they want to guarantee that, get their ***** in unis and play the ****ing game before they lose more fans.

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11-21-2012, 02:22 PM
  #804
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No sooner do I finish reading a summary of the NHLPA proposal

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=409992

...then I refresh TSN and it says "no progress". ****ing Crap.

I didn't see any comments as to further meetings on Friday but if there are none I'm guessing this is the season pretty much.

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11-21-2012, 02:22 PM
  #805
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Talks break off, NHL will not budge. No further meetings expected between the two sides.

Quote:
Dan Rosen ‏@drosennhl
Don Fehr says the NHL did not move off its original stance and said he did not know when the sides would meet again.
Quote:
Ian Mendes ‏@ian_mendes
Basically Fehr's message in a nutshell: The NHL showed no reciprocity today and are not interested in negotiating off this NHLPA proposal.
Quote:
Dan Rosen ‏@drosennhl
Fehr: "On the big things there was as of today no reciprocity in any meaningful sense."
That's frustrating. I've been on the NHL's side until today; the NHLPA basically handed the NHL what they have been asking for as far as HRR and %'s.

Quote:
Pat Leonard ‏@NYDNRangers
Asked Ron Hainsey if @NHL's answer was a "blanket 'No.'" He said no, more like NHL addressed each major issue & declined to move on each


Last edited by Tafkak: 11-21-2012 at 02:27 PM. Reason: Adding quotes as they come in.
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11-21-2012, 02:24 PM
  #806
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
No sooner do I finish reading a summary of the NHLPA proposal

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=409992

...then I refresh TSN and it says "no progress".

I didn't see any comments as to further meetings on Friday but if there are none I'm guessing this is the season pretty much.
I see this as progress because for the first time they are negotiating from similar proposals. That the NHL didn't agree with the proposal was expected but hopefully they will keep negotiating from the same frames now. And the money is pretty close now (180M$) so it's probably more about the contract matters that's next.

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11-21-2012, 02:26 PM
  #807
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanh View Post
I see this as progress because for the first time they are negotiating from similar proposals. That the NHL didn't agree with the proposal was expected but hopefully they will keep negotiating from the same frames now. And the money is pretty close now (180M$) so it's probably more about the contract matters that's next.
NHL apparently dismissed the NHLPA's proposal, not something that they want to negotiate off of. Which has me rather miffed as this is what the NHL was asking for.

Bettman/Daly will be holding a PC shortly.

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11-21-2012, 02:29 PM
  #808
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Looks like there's some stuff on NHL.com... going to check that out. [never mind just a basic summary]

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11-21-2012, 02:31 PM
  #809
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Quote:
Katie Strang ‏@KatieStrangESPN
#CBA In wake of day's events, wouldn't be surprised to see de-certification resurface as viable option for NHLPA. Could be discussed on call
This is getting to the point where it's going to get really nasty.

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11-21-2012, 02:32 PM
  #810
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Someone remind me what the big issue behind decertification is again? Is this akin to the players saying "we'll go play in other leagues" (indefinitely)?

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11-21-2012, 02:34 PM
  #811
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CV: It allows the players to pursue ending the lockout through antitrust law.

Here's a link detailing what Union Decertification is and how it would affect negotiations. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gabrie...b_1081107.html The NBAPA, to the best of my memory, went through this during their lockout last year.

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11-21-2012, 02:37 PM
  #812
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Antitrust law? How so / what's the argument they'd be making in that case? Antitrust law is what the government would use to prevent companies like Comcast and Verizon (!) from price fixing, etc. Not sure how anti-trust law would apply to the NHL unless the argument would be they're preventing other people from starting a league or something like that.

What exactly is being "decertified" when they do this?

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11-21-2012, 02:42 PM
  #813
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Dissolving the PA may be a good way to end the lockout. More than likely lawsuits will be filed in a number of states, one of which is Minnesota who the Judge (forgive me I cannot remember his name and I'm too lazy to look it up) has said he would love to take a crack at mediation. That Judge is also the one who sided with the NFLPA on a number of issues and would have likely sided with the NBAPA, had the lawsuit gone to court. I wouldn't be surprised if he forced both sides to an agreement.

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11-21-2012, 02:44 PM
  #814
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Antitrust law? How so / what's the argument they'd be making in that case? Antitrust law is what the government would use to prevent companies like Comcast and Verizon (!) from price fixing, etc. Not sure how anti-trust law would apply to the NHL unless the argument would be they're preventing other people from starting a league or something like that.

What exactly is being "decertified" when they do this?
Quote:
Why would the NBA players decertify?
The NBA players may believe that the NBPA has not done a good job representing their interests in the CBA negotiations, or they may believe they are better off negotiating as individual employees without the benefit of a union, but the players would primarily be using decertification as a means to end. The end is the ability to bring an antitrust lawsuit against the NBA challenging the lockout as an antitrust violation. The players would argue that the lockout constitutes an illegal "group boycott" by the owners. The players would likely also challenge any of the rules that the league might put in place that restrict a player's ability to make money or otherwise impact the players working conditions. For example, the players could challenge the NBA's salary cap, the player draft, and other player and free agency restrictions.
This was the route that the NBAPA players attempted during their lockout last year.

When the players decertified the Union, they went down to a trade association, allowing the players to be individually represented by lawyers. I would imagine the NHLPA would follow the same steps that the NBAPA pursued.

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11-21-2012, 02:45 PM
  #815
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OK I follow now (read the link you posted after your initial comment -- thanks).

So the NHLPA itself would be decertified (i.e. if passed via NLRB elections, there would be no more hockey union). And the purpose would be to suggest in an antitrust suit the owners are colluding to drive unfair terms by suspending the league... and the remedy of that suit might be that the judge would force the league to re-open.

But under what terms? Would the court define the terms of a new CBA?

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11-21-2012, 02:48 PM
  #816
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
OK I follow now.

So the NHLPA itself would be decertified (i.e. if passed via NLRB elections, there would be no more hockey union). And the purpose would be to suggest in an antitrust suit the owners are colluding to drive unfair terms by suspending the league... and the remedy of that suit might be that the judge would force the league to re-open.

But under what terms? Would the court define the terms of a new CBA?
That's where we get into grey area. Some have said a judge could force the Union to re-certify and begin negotiations until an agreement is reached or more damaging, he/she could rule fully in favor of one side or the other and put their respective CBA proposal in to effect. It's never gone that far as to where a judge has had to rule.

The other alternative is that a Judge could force the league and players to play under the previous CBA while a new one is hammered out.

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11-21-2012, 02:48 PM
  #817
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Yeah I'm not seeing how a season is salvaged without a third party involved in some way.

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Old
11-21-2012, 02:52 PM
  #818
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Will be interesting to see if in Fehr's presser someone asks about the topic of decertification. I'm sure he wouldn't prefer that route.

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11-21-2012, 02:53 PM
  #819
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Who knows, I had forgotten that the NFLPA had also gone through decertification and won their court case, as well. Fehr is going to have a 5:00 EST conference call with the players where I'm sure the issue will be brought up.

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11-21-2012, 02:54 PM
  #820
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Bettman is starting his presser now, I'll be updating with tweets and quotes gathered from the internets.

Quote:
Chris Botta ‏@ChrisBottaNHL
Bettman: "We're still far apart. But hopefully there's some momentum so we can bring this to a conclusion."
Quote:
Pat Leonard ‏@NYDNRangers
Bettman acknowledges movement by PA, says it's good to finally have a full union proposal on table
Quote:
Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun
Despite NHL response to NHLPA offer, I still feel it was an important step. Ignore the rhetoric and focus on process. ....
Quote:
Michael Grange ‏@michaelgrange
Bettman -- we have proposed a deal where players will make 12-14 billion over 7 yrs #NHL #NHLPA
----

Quote:
Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger
League and union expected to talk again on Friday. PA said it would get back to NHL end of week.


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11-21-2012, 03:03 PM
  #821
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So there's still a glimmer of hope / talks on Friday are likely.

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11-21-2012, 03:04 PM
  #822
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And now Bettman and a fan are having a rather "fun" conversation.

Quote:
Pat Leonard ‏@NYDNRangers
Angry NHL fan interrupts presser. After presser, Bettman stops and is now chatting with him. Jaymes Hall, 41, of Lancaster, Pa. & his sons
Josh Yohe ‏@JoshYohe_Trib
Bettman confronts angry fan (Angry Fan and Bettman having discussion)

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11-21-2012, 03:18 PM
  #823
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tafkak View Post
NHL apparently dismissed the NHLPA's proposal, not something that they want to negotiate off of. Which has me rather miffed as this is what the NHL was asking for.

Bettman/Daly will be holding a PC shortly.
Not at all

The NHLPA proposal calls for guaranteed share in years 2-5 and a cap upper limit that doesn't drop

Basically no linkage and all risk goes to owners financially

+ They want more make Whole on top of it

The yrs 2-5 of NHLPA offer go against the very basic framework of what NHL wants ,, So no this is nothing like what NHL was asking for

Also Make Whole increase + Guaranteed 2-5 yrs = Never really reaching 50/50 split

It was basically the same proposal the NHLPA has put forth economically in past

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11-21-2012, 03:21 PM
  #824
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When is the season considered lost if there is no agreement? After the new year?

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11-21-2012, 03:35 PM
  #825
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How the player's AREN'T helping themselves:

Quote:
Brandon Prust ‏@BrandonPrust8
Gary bettman's autobiography is in stores now. It's titled 'how I destroyed a sport and a nation'
Quote:
Mike Rupp ‏@Rupper17
"M-I-C-K-E-Y M-O-U-S-E" - The 3 other Major Sports #cmonsingalong
Quote:
George Parros ‏@GeorgeParros
“@NStv11: @GeorgeParros Where can I donate to make you guys play hockey again?” maybe to the NHL offices, they seem to want more money
And the childish comments keep coming by the players. I would hope that Fehr would tell some of the players that their comments aren't helping the process, but I'm sure he's enjoying it.

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