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Ovi can't even light up the KHL, can we finally admit that he's past his prime?

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Old
11-21-2012, 12:45 AM
  #426
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I love how revisionist people are here. Ovechkin didn't bounce back to league dominating numbers last season and now there hasn't been a season thus far, but he's not tearing up the KHL, so he's totally past his prime and "it's been two years since he was good". That's not exactly how I remember it though. The way I remember it is he scored 85 points a season ago (maybe not dominating, but how many players are above that in ANY year, recently?) and was on pace for about 90 points but missed a few games that season. Correct me if I'm wrong. Last season, I think we can all agree was disappointing from Ovechkin, for any hockey fan looking to see his exciting brand of hockey, but I fail to see how a 90 point pace and better than point-per-game player the year before is really that bad? If Ovechkin is only a 90 point player for each of the next four years, will people say he's past his prime? Sure, it's not the 60 goals he scored as a kid fresh in the NHL, but can anyone argue the rest of his game hasn't evolved and he's not, at least, a MORE complete player than he was (not saying he's a complete player, just more so than he was). So far the only truly disappointing season on his resume was this past season. To me, his KHL stats are utterly meaningless.

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11-21-2012, 01:39 AM
  #427
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Originally Posted by MPF24 View Post
I love how revisionist people are here. Ovechkin didn't bounce back to league dominating numbers last season and now there hasn't been a season thus far, but he's not tearing up the KHL, so he's totally past his prime and "it's been two years since he was good". That's not exactly how I remember it though. The way I remember it is he scored 85 points a season ago (maybe not dominating, but how many players are above that in ANY year, recently?) and was on pace for about 90 points but missed a few games that season. Correct me if I'm wrong. Last season, I think we can all agree was disappointing from Ovechkin, for any hockey fan looking to see his exciting brand of hockey, but I fail to see how a 90 point pace and better than point-per-game player the year before is really that bad? If Ovechkin is only a 90 point player for each of the next four years, will people say he's past his prime? Sure, it's not the 60 goals he scored as a kid fresh in the NHL, but can anyone argue the rest of his game hasn't evolved and he's not, at least, a MORE complete player than he was (not saying he's a complete player, just more so than he was). So far the only truly disappointing season on his resume was this past season. To me, his KHL stats are utterly meaningless.
You remember differently than I do. He played 79 games in 2010-11 when he scored those 85 points (32 goals). The year prior he scored 109 points in 72 games (and 50 goals). In 2008-09 he scored 110 in 79 games and 56 goals.

When talking about a particular player and whether they're in or out of their prime it doesn't matter one iota how they stack up against other players, unless a point about overall league scoring is trying to be made. The fact of the matter is that the guy once universally recognized as the #1 or #2 offensively dangerous player dropped production by 24 points from one season to the next (with massive drop in goal-scoring to boot).

Most rational people aren't saying he's a bad player now, and personally I'm going to give him a chance to redeem himself and get back to being a 40+ goal 90+ point player. However, recognizing when most players have their peak scoring years and noting that for this particular player that was a few years ago and furthermore since that time his production has dropped substantially...I feel comfortable saying that he is past his prime.

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11-21-2012, 02:42 AM
  #428
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Apparently he played very well today. 2 primary assists, and was robbed in close on a great scoring chance he created himself.

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11-21-2012, 03:04 AM
  #429
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Originally Posted by TheGoldenJet View Post
Apparently he played very well today. 2 primary assists, and was robbed in close on a great scoring chance he created himself.
Yes, you're right. Since Backstrom joined the team, Ovi's got a boost.
Backstrom was good. I really enjoyed him, his skill, vision, game reading. Almost like Dats.


Last edited by od71: 11-21-2012 at 06:29 AM.
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11-21-2012, 04:12 AM
  #430
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Originally Posted by MPF24 View Post
I love how revisionist people are here. Ovechkin didn't bounce back to league dominating numbers last season and now there hasn't been a season thus far, but he's not tearing up the KHL, so he's totally past his prime and "it's been two years since he was good". That's not exactly how I remember it though. The way I remember it is he scored 85 points a season ago (maybe not dominating, but how many players are above that in ANY year, recently?) and was on pace for about 90 points but missed a few games that season. Correct me if I'm wrong. Last season, I think we can all agree was disappointing from Ovechkin, for any hockey fan looking to see his exciting brand of hockey, but I fail to see how a 90 point pace and better than point-per-game player the year before is really that bad? If Ovechkin is only a 90 point player for each of the next four years, will people say he's past his prime? Sure, it's not the 60 goals he scored as a kid fresh in the NHL, but can anyone argue the rest of his game hasn't evolved and he's not, at least, a MORE complete player than he was (not saying he's a complete player, just more so than he was). So far the only truly disappointing season on his resume was this past season. To me, his KHL stats are utterly meaningless.
No he isn't a more complete player today, he's the same player with a lack of drive. People like you who're excusing production in favor of a non existent "complete game". Ok so even if he's what? a TINY bit better defensively? and that makes his game "evolved"? Please if you're giving up 10+ goals and 30+ points to round out your game that little, that's not called "evolving".

If he scores 90 points for 4 more years, that'd be great and he'd certainly still be in his offensive prime, lets see him to that first, because we haven't seen that Ovy since before the 2010 Olympic Games.

You can chop it up and say "well how many players really get more then 85 points a season", that just sounds like a silly excuse for a guy who in his prime had 1, maybe 2 guys top him in scoring a year and was giving top-3 scoring performances year after year.

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11-21-2012, 10:26 AM
  #431
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
You remember differently than I do. He played 79 games in 2010-11 when he scored those 85 points (32 goals). The year prior he scored 109 points in 72 games (and 50 goals). In 2008-09 he scored 110 in 79 games and 56 goals.

When talking about a particular player and whether they're in or out of their prime it doesn't matter one iota how they stack up against other players, unless a point about overall league scoring is trying to be made. The fact of the matter is that the guy once universally recognized as the #1 or #2 offensively dangerous player dropped production by 24 points from one season to the next (with massive drop in goal-scoring to boot).

Most rational people aren't saying he's a bad player now, and personally I'm going to give him a chance to redeem himself and get back to being a 40+ goal 90+ point player. However, recognizing when most players have their peak scoring years and noting that for this particular player that was a few years ago and furthermore since that time his production has dropped substantially...I feel comfortable saying that he is past his prime.
He obviously hasn't been as good this year, but look at the teams GPG numbers in 2010-2011, specifically before and after they had an 8 game losing streak where they switched to an all out defensive system. The team went from something like 3.5 goals per game and Ovechkin on a 100 point pace to about 2.3 goals per game. I think you can imagine how that affected Ovechkin's points per game numbers.

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11-21-2012, 11:50 AM
  #432
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Whether or not he is in his physical prime its clear that his ability to score goals isnt what it used to be. 36 goal pace per season from last 2 seasons, thats still very good numbers in todays game but nothing compared to his earlier totals. His time in Russia continues that trend - 7 goals in 18 games, 31 goal pace (if the season was 82 games long) in a worse league than the NHL.

And just watching him play we all see that something is not what is used to be.

But Ovechkin isnt necessarily past his prime. I believe his 'problems' are mostly on the mental side, he still can score goals like he did before if he figures it out.

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11-21-2012, 12:15 PM
  #433
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He seems to be doing quite well on defense first team, other than Backstrom nobody on the team is scoring at a high rate. I am of the belief that it was the system and not the player that has led to his decline over the last couple seasons.

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11-21-2012, 01:23 PM
  #434
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Originally Posted by hurricanedave View Post
He seems to be doing quite well on defense first team, other than Backstrom nobody on the team is scoring at a high rate. I am of the belief that it was the system and not the player that has led to his decline over the last couple seasons.
was it the system that was making him score 65 goals?

Can that system work on other players? Kessel would love to score 65 goals and Burke would love that too!

OR

Player gets credit when things go well

System gets blamed when things don't

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11-21-2012, 02:06 PM
  #435
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He played under Glen Hanlon on he's rookie season; didn't prevent him from scoring over 50 goals and hundred points.

Though league wide scoring was higher and more pps, not sure how much they account to those numbers.

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11-21-2012, 02:10 PM
  #436
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
was it the system that was making him score 65 goals?

Can that system work on other players? Kessel would love to score 65 goals and Burke would love that too!

OR

Player gets credit when things go well

System gets blamed when things don't
1st 26 games of 2010-2011 (pre losing streak)

Capitals - 90 goals (3.46 goals per game)
Ovechkin - 10g 23a (32g 73a pace)


Other 53 games of Ovechkin's season (losing streak on... Once they changed systems)

Capitals - 127 goals (2.4 goals per game)
Ovechkin - 22g 30a (34g 46a pace)


But you're right! It had nothing to do with a system change...

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11-21-2012, 02:14 PM
  #437
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I will never understand why people try to character assasinatr ovechkin. His game got adapted to by defensemen, and hes trying to make it work again. Maybe everyones whose saying definitively that its his "drive" have a hotline to his mother/girlfriend that we dont know about?

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11-21-2012, 02:38 PM
  #438
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I will never understand why people try to character assasinatr ovechkin. His game got adapted to by defensemen, and hes trying to make it work again. Maybe everyones whose saying definitively that its his "drive" have a hotline to his mother/girlfriend that we dont know about?
You're telling me it took 6 years for them to finally figure out
Ovechkin? and that the people who found out this magic secret decided to share it with all other 29 teams in the league?

Please, he's gotten lazy with his plays. He used to have 10 different ways he could go around the defense, in recent years he's used the same move over and over again, maybe that's why they've "figured him out"?

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11-21-2012, 02:43 PM
  #439
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You're telling me it took 6 years for them to finally figure out
Ovechkin? and that the people who found out this magic secret decided to share it with all other 29 teams in the league?

Please, he's gotten lazy with his plays. He used to have 10 different ways he could go around the defense, in recent years he's used the same move over and over again, maybe that's why they've "figured him out"?
Theres really no clear chain to laziness in your argument. Just conjecture

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11-21-2012, 02:45 PM
  #440
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All I have to say to that is: Alexander Radulov is leading in points. Radulov has more points than Datsyuk and Malkin (albeit a few more GP). So it doesn't really mean that much.

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11-21-2012, 03:18 PM
  #441
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All I have to say to that is: Alexander Radulov is leading in points. Radulov has more points than Datsyuk and Malkin (albeit a few more GP). So it doesn't really mean that much.
But Malkin has a better PPG. And Datsyuk is also past his prime. So yeah...

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11-21-2012, 03:30 PM
  #442
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But Malkin has a better PPG. And Datsyuk is also past his prime. So yeah...
These guys are on VACATION over there...let's not pretend they are playing their best hockey, any of them. Datsyuk looks like he's not even trying, merely playing shinny with friends.

Or, maybe Brunner is better than Joe Thornton?

Quote:
Originally Posted by caps4cup View Post
1st 26 games of 2010-2011 (pre losing streak)

Capitals - 90 goals (3.46 goals per game)
Ovechkin - 10g 23a (32g 73a pace)


Other 53 games of Ovechkin's season (losing streak on... Once they changed systems)

Capitals - 127 goals (2.4 goals per game)
Ovechkin - 22g 30a (34g 46a pace)


But you're right! It had nothing to do with a system change...
Is there where I go dig up stats to match yours? or to show that other players seemed to be able to still score under a different system?

Or, maybe compare other defensive systems, like Torts in NY, and see gaborik's 41 goals and then extrapolate that "if he played in Wash, under their old system, he'd have scored 93 goals"?

Did Stamkos score 60 goals playing on a "trap team"? Imagine if he played in a different system?

Don't take things so personally. Accept the FACT that Ovechkin's not the same player he was and hope that he can get his game back, system notwithstanding.

Elite players transcend systems.

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11-21-2012, 04:09 PM
  #443
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These guys are on VACATION over there...let's not pretend they are playing their best hockey, any of them. Datsyuk looks like he's not even trying, merely playing shinny with friends.
hahaa .. that's funny! You think they are taking it easy in the K?? Man you have no idea. I can tell that you watched maybe like 1 game, if that.

I think their teammates and coaches would throw them out on the street if they tried to pull that **** there. Oh wait, they did- remember that guy Evander Kane??

I don't know if you ever played hockey, but you have to be a real idiot not to try hard and help your team when you're on the ice. These guys are born athletes, they have an insane drive to win esp. in a competative league. Your teammates will know if you're slacking off real quick too, not to mention the coach!!

Hockey is a sport that will kick your ass for slacking, anyone who played will know that.

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11-21-2012, 04:10 PM
  #444
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But Malkin has a better PPG. And Datsyuk is also past his prime. So yeah...
Past he's peak, maybe, past he's prime, I don't think so. He played teh best hockey of he's life at 2011 playoffs and last season after he woke up from the horrendous first month or so. Then by February, he started having problems with injuries, knee and possibly something with arm as he wasn't taking that much faceoffs.

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11-21-2012, 04:33 PM
  #445
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hahaa .. that's funny! You think they are taking it easy in the K?? Man you have no idea. I can tell that you watched maybe like 1 game, if that.

I think their teammates and coaches would throw them out on the street if they tried to pull that **** there. Oh wait, they did- remember that guy Evander Kane??

I don't know if you ever played hockey, but you have to be a real idiot not to try hard and help your team when you're on the ice. These guys are born athletes, they have an insane drive to win esp. in a competative league. Your teammates will know if you're slacking off real quick too, not to mention the coach!!

Hockey is a sport that will kick your ass for slacking, anyone who played will know that.
if you think players who sign elsewhere, during a work stoppage, for zero money in many instances, knowing they can be called back any time, play with the same intensity, then go ahead.

maybe some fringe players are there to compete and prove something, but that's rare.

i have seen tavares play 2 full games and he put the pick through his legs more than in his first three seasons in the NHL.

not saying they are slacking, but there is zero chance they are playing their hardest.

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11-21-2012, 04:37 PM
  #446
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if you think players who sign elsewhere, during a work stoppage, for zero money in many instances, knowing they can be called back any time, play with the same intensity, then go ahead.

maybe some fringe players are there to compete and prove something, but that's rare.

i have seen tavares play 2 full games and he put the pick through his legs more than in his first three seasons in the NHL.

not saying they are slacking, but there is zero chance they are playing their hardest.
Oh, I was talking about KHL. There's now way in hell they'd get away with treating it like a vacation there, most of them get paid millions $$ too.

I don't know about DEL though, haven't watched any games. I'm sure it's a different story though, with vastly different circumstances.

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11-21-2012, 05:51 PM
  #447
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These guys are on VACATION over there...let's not pretend they are playing their best hockey, any of them. Datsyuk looks like he's not even trying, merely playing shinny with friends.

Or, maybe Brunner is better than Joe Thornton?



Is there where I go dig up stats to match yours? or to show that other players seemed to be able to still score under a different system?

Or, maybe compare other defensive systems, like Torts in NY, and see gaborik's 41 goals and then extrapolate that "if he played in Wash, under their old system, he'd have scored 93 goals"?

Did Stamkos score 60 goals playing on a "trap team"? Imagine if he played in a different system?

Don't take things so personally. Accept the FACT that Ovechkin's not the same player he was and hope that he can get his game back, system notwithstanding.

Elite players transcend systems.
I'm not saying he'd still score 60 goals. But look at the numbers. Those last 53 games he actually scored at higher goal per rate, and his team still scored over 1 less goal per game. The system obviously had something to do with it whether you want to accept or not. As a Caps fan, it's obvious Ovechkin isn't 100% what he used to be, but the system did have a lot to do with it.

Personally, watching it last year got so bad under both Boudreau and Hunter; the Caps started playing "not to lose", instead of playing to win. Everyone's numbers on the Caps dropped, not just Ovechkin's.

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11-21-2012, 06:37 PM
  #448
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
These guys are on VACATION over there...let's not pretend they are playing their best hockey, any of them. Datsyuk looks like he's not even trying, merely playing shinny with friends.

Is there where I go dig up stats to match yours? or to show that other players seemed to be able to still score under a different system?

Or, maybe compare other defensive systems, like Torts in NY, and see gaborik's 41 goals and then extrapolate that "if he played in Wash, under their old system, he'd have scored 93 goals"?

Did Stamkos score 60 goals playing on a "trap team"? Imagine if he played in a different system?
Yeah. And the weather was wrong:
"In the winter it's a completely different story. It is extremely overcast. Not necessarily rainy, just persistently overcast. To the point where you see less sunlight than you do in places significantly farther north.
I'm not saying it's any worse than the majority of other KHL cities, but for a 21 y/o living outside of North America for the first time, it's a pretty hard go."

Or even better: "Well, Kane's from Vancouver, so he probably doesn't mind overcast. He wasn't really there long enough to get bummed out by the weather.
Maybe he missed his GF. Maybe he thought he was going to light up the K and finds out he's 2nd (3rd? 4th?) fiddle"

It's fun to read all those excuses for the guys.
Guys, who move to the KHL. Don't forget to take GF. But still don't know how to help the weather problem.

"If canadian fails in the KHL, he was not motivated, he's on vacation. If russian fails in the NHL, he's lazy, doesn't have balls"


Last edited by od71: 11-21-2012 at 06:54 PM.
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11-21-2012, 11:23 PM
  #449
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He obviously hasn't been as good this year, but look at the teams GPG numbers in 2010-2011, specifically before and after they had an 8 game losing streak where they switched to an all out defensive system. The team went from something like 3.5 goals per game and Ovechkin on a 100 point pace to about 2.3 goals per game. I think you can imagine how that affected Ovechkin's points per game numbers.
It remains to be seen if Washington can be a winner when it matters with Ovechkin and mates playing the style they did that allowed him to be the scoring machine he was. System can definitely impact a player's numbers; I'm a Stars fan who watched Modano's stats glossed over because he was only putting up PPG numbers while playing in a defense-first system. Still though, he was able to do so and be part of a winner. Ovechkin is kind of like a thoroughbred you want to just watch do his thing because it's beautiful to watch but you're not sure it will ultimately win the race.

The other thing about Ovechkin is it seems that the league has adapted to his style; he's become predictable. He hasn't made the adaption yet to counter these changes in defense against him.

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11-22-2012, 12:24 AM
  #450
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no more fire. he plays with too much emotion, he should play with more discipline like sid

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