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2012 CBA Discussion Part IV (Lockout talk here)

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Old
11-21-2012, 01:51 PM
  #451
bb74
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Fehr is losing his constituency in the PA.

Clearly caving to the owners demands because the majority of guys see that over a 5 year deal they will never recoup a full lost season. They may not be Nobel economists, but they can count....

As for the current proposal, I think it is pretty good for the owners except for a couple of provisions.

1st you need to lower the cap floor... say 30% lower than the ceiling, not 20% as they are asking. Only way to breakeven in tough markets.
2nd you need to look at buyout rights of salaries under 3M - crazy they don't allow this but hey.
3rd you need to look at the 50% share value being flexible based upon REAL economics of HRR. Granted it is a low risk proposition as the HRR floor starts after the 1st year, but we are going into dire economic times so no guarantee 5 years out the HRR is going to look better. You need to add an "act of god" clause there linked to a viable benchmark that is tied to the real economy. Not rocket science and probably something they could work out pretty easily.
4th you need to reinsert an escrow clause for the existing contracts against HRR. You can't just payout 100% on current deals when for all intents and purposes they would only have made 85% of the deal due to the PA over accelerating the HRR calculation the past 7 years. This may not suit them but it would do a lot to fill the gap in the spirit of the original contracts signed which were always contingent upon escrow calculation.

Add those terms and the deal is done tomorrow.

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Old
11-21-2012, 01:52 PM
  #452
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Looks like Bissonnette won't be signing here
Bissonnette smart like truck. He should have paid attention to what happened to the Bruins during the last lockout and how not signing players helped then.

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Old
11-21-2012, 01:54 PM
  #453
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Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
....huh?

Who ever said it wasn't about money to both sides?

I don't understand this at all.
So it's ok for the players to want to maximize the amount of money they get, but not ok for the owners? How does that work? That's my point.

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11-21-2012, 01:57 PM
  #454
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Originally Posted by Kate08 View Post
So it's ok for the players to want to maximize the amount of money they get, but not ok for the owners? How does that work? That's my point.
So call out the 100% pro-owner people too. Why only say it about one group?

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11-21-2012, 02:11 PM
  #455
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Apparently the latest meeting is over

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11-21-2012, 02:13 PM
  #456
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https://twitter.com/DarrenDreger
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Players won't be happy with how the league is responding to proposal. No meaningful give-backs according to PA source."Disappointing day."

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11-21-2012, 02:14 PM
  #457
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Apparently the latest meeting is over
Probably not a good sign Bettman was heard singing Closing Time.

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Old
11-21-2012, 02:15 PM
  #458
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Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger

Close on rev sharing, but no contract concessions and league remains firm on $211 mil Make Whole. Talks will continue, but may not meet Thur

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11-21-2012, 02:16 PM
  #459
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Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
So call out the 100% pro-owner people too. Why only say it about one group?
I don't know, because it doesn't support my point? No one questions that the owners are looking to make money. I didn't know that it had to be explicitly stated.

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11-21-2012, 02:16 PM
  #460
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Aaron Ward ‏@aaronward_nhl

Source,major move by NHLPA not well received by NHL.Player conference call later this evening and likely not positive. #TSN

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Old
11-21-2012, 02:21 PM
  #461
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brian mcgrattan ‏@bigern10
@DarrenDreger let us know how the confrence call goes im sure you will know before anyone

brian mcgrattan ‏@bigern10
are @TSNBobMcKenzie and @DarrenDreger part of the PA??? How do they get the emails and tweet them before i get them???

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Old
11-21-2012, 02:25 PM
  #462
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Originally Posted by Kate08 View Post
I don't know, because it doesn't support my point? No one questions that the owners are looking to make money. I didn't know that it had to be explicitly stated.
Oh, so your point was that both the owners and players have the same motivation.....so the people that support one group but not the other are aggravating......for.....not......understanding... ..that?

Oh, I get why I was confused now. It was just an opportunity to slam one side for the same sins of the other. Got it.

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Old
11-21-2012, 02:29 PM
  #463
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Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
Oh, so your point was that both the owners and players have the same motivation.....so the people that support one group but not the other are aggravating......for.....not......understanding... ..that?

Oh, I get why I was confused now. It was just an opportunity to slam one side for the same sins of the other. Got it.
Not at all, actually. I've said several times that I think both sides are at fault. I wasn't aware that I needed to show equal levels of annoyance for both sides of the table at all times. I'll remember that in the future.

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Old
11-21-2012, 02:35 PM
  #464
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Originally Posted by Kate08 View Post
Not at all, actually. I've said several times that I think both sides are at fault. I wasn't aware that I needed to show equal levels of annoyance for both sides of the table at all times. I'll remember that in the future.
No, please, insult one group of people for doing the exact same thing as the other group.

I find it productive.

Honestly, my confusion at your post was because I didn't think you'd do that, but hey, whatever.

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Old
11-21-2012, 02:42 PM
  #465
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Luke DeCock ‏@LukeDeCock

So basically, the NHL doesn't want to negotiate. It wants to dictate. Full stop. If that's the NHL's position, why shouldn't Fehr play it long and go after the salary cap itself?

Allan Walsh ‏@walsha

NHLPA accepted to work off NHL's framework, made a proposal moving significantly in NHL's direction. The NHL rejected it in less than 2 hrs.

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Old
11-21-2012, 02:45 PM
  #466
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Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
No, please, insult one group of people for doing the exact same thing as the other group.

I find it productive.

Honestly, my confusion at your post was because I didn't think you'd do that, but hey, whatever.
Maybe I chose my wording incorrectly, but that's not what I was doing. I was trying to make the point that people are saying the owners are greedy (I'm not disputing that), but you rarely hear anyone say that they players are greedy, when at the end of the day, it's JUST AS MUCH about money for them as it is for owners.

With the players you read/hear that they're the best at their craft, are the product, etc etc etc. Again, I'm not disputing that -- but let's not forget they're being greedy too.

That was my point.

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11-21-2012, 02:45 PM
  #467
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Is there one thing the owners are giving up in this (hypothetical) new deal compared to the old CBA?

I am not even asking sarcastically, I genuinely can't think of one thing and want to know what I am missing.

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Old
11-21-2012, 02:47 PM
  #468
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Originally Posted by Kate08 View Post
Maybe I chose my wording incorrectly, but that's not what I was doing. I was trying to make the point that people are saying the owners are greedy (I'm not disputing that), but you rarely hear anyone say that they players are greedy, when at the end of the day, it's JUST AS MUCH about money for them as it is for owners.

With the players you read/hear that they're the best at their craft, are the product, etc etc etc. Again, I'm not disputing that -- but let's not forget they're being greedy too.

That was my point.
You aren't reading this thread if you think there haven't been 100% pro-owner people in here that are aggravating for only dealing in absolutes.

"The players should be grateful they get paid to play a game!"

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11-21-2012, 02:58 PM
  #469
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Originally Posted by Mr. Make-Believe View Post
There's percentages right in the proposal. Why ignore one number and not the other?

If it's worth anything at all, I agree with you. Using hard dollars in the negotiating process is double-stupid and doesn't work at all.
Personally I only pay attention to one because one number is a projection and one is not. 1.75% increases on top of 1.88 billion is the actual, a 5% annual increase in revenue is not. The fact that the league is being nearly completely supported by only a couple of Canadian teams scares me more then just a little. You look at all other major sports and you quickly see they have significantly more individual teams turning a profit. NFL and MLB have 25+ teams turning profits each year, most of them significant profits. The NBA has less teams turning a profit (10-15 teams lose money each year) but still (A) have more teams turning a profit then the NHL and (B) have more of the teams who turn a profit make real money. And still, look at the **** show that was the NBA lockout last season and the concessions players had to make there.

I honestly could care less who comes out on top, the owners or the players. Millionaires and Billionaires fighting over our money doesn't lend itself to earning my loyalty one way or the other. In order for the NHL to succeed and hopefully grow however, it needs to be profitable (other words the owners need to make money). In order for it to be as exciting as possible in my mind it needs to be competitive, and in order to be competitive there needs to be parity. All teams need to be able to realistically spend to the cap without reporting a loss. I support the owners because it just so happens that them looking out for their own interests will as a by product achieve each of these things. The NHLPA looking out for their own interests won't. They don't care if Nashville can turn a profit. They don't care if ticket prices for the fans need to increase to support their salaries. They want to maximize their earning ability (as most people do) and in doing so, at least imo, run the risk of hurting the entire league. I don't begrudge them for it, but I don't agree with it at all either.

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Old
11-21-2012, 02:58 PM
  #470
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Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
You aren't reading this thread if you think there haven't been 100% pro-owner people in here that are aggravating for only dealing in absolutes.

"The players should be grateful they get paid to play a game!"
Again, when did I say that wasn't the case? I find those people to be ridiculous too. Employees deserve to be fairly compensated for the work they do/skills they provide, I don't care if it's playing a game or working on an assembly line.

Because I was responding to Wally's comment about leverage, my comment was focused on the player's side and how their desire to make money often gets overlooked. It doesn't mean that I'm endorsing the outlook that owners aren't at fault too...at all. I wasn't slamming one side to build up the other, first of all that's not at all how I roll and second of all, I don't think either side deserves to be built up.

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11-21-2012, 03:01 PM
  #471
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Originally Posted by Caballo Blanco View Post
Luke DeCock ‏@LukeDeCock

So basically, the NHL doesn't want to negotiate. It wants to dictate. Full stop. If that's the NHL's position, why shouldn't Fehr play it long and go after the salary cap itself?

Allan Walsh ‏@walsha

NHLPA accepted to work off NHL's framework, made a proposal moving significantly in NHL's direction. The NHL rejected it in less than 2 hrs.
Is Walsh that much of a watermelon that he thinks the NHL is just going to automatically accept the PA's proposal with no negotiating? I don't remember hearing how time frames for how long it took the PA to reject the NHL's offers?

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11-21-2012, 03:01 PM
  #472
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Ian Mendes ‏@ian_mendes

Basically Fehr's message in a nutshell: The NHL showed no reciprocity today and are not interested in negotiating off this NHLPA proposal.
Good job, owners.

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Old
11-21-2012, 03:03 PM
  #473
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Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger

Bettman now in a discussion with a fan...cameras rolling. Tells fan the union hasn't been willing to negotiate.

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Old
11-21-2012, 03:12 PM
  #474
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Cancel the season, 45-50 games is bush

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11-21-2012, 03:14 PM
  #475
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What are the honest odds of any season at all now? In the past I've given out Bruins tickets as Christmas presents....

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