Assuming the list starts in 1994-95, it should look more like this (split up by F/D/G, not listed by ability):
Sakic
Jagr
Yzerman
Lindros
Lidstrom
Pronger
Hasek
Brodeur
Roy
Osgood
Nope Niedermayer/Bourque were better than Pronger since the mid-90s though Pronger's peak was pretty damn good. I'd say he's a tear below and closer to Rob Blake.
What Selanne did since the mid-90s is more impressive than Lindros though Lindros certainly was a more unique player.
And I was only looking at players who were at or near the end of their career originally but you can't put Osgood there. He was a decent goalie on high end teams. I'd put Luongo/Kiprusoff and maybe even a few others like Lundqvist ahead of Osgood. Probably Nabakov too for a time period though his playoff performances make him go down. Certainly if you're making a top 10 then you don't put any 4th goalie on there ahead of a skater from that era. Was a good era for skaters, terrible for goalies outside the big 3.
I'm quite young so my opinion is a little skewed but I've seen all the greats play at least a few times. I'm keeping my list post Orr (inclusive)
1) Wayne Gretzky
2) Bobby Orr
3) Mario Lemieux
4) Ray Bourque
5) Dominik Hasek
6) Peter Stastny
7) Patrick Roy
8) Denis Potvin
9) Nicklas Lidstrom
10) Jagr/Sakic/Forsberg (can't really decide)
Shocked at the lack of love for Messier in this thread.
He's only what, 2nd all-time in points??
Messier was great no question about it and I wouldn't have a problem if someone would have him in their Top 10. But it wouldn't shock if he was not there too. Because just as a forward, was he better than Gordie, than the Rocket, than Beliveau, than Bobby Hul, than Lafleur?
I'm quite young so my opinion is a little skewed but I've seen all the greats play at least a few times. I'm keeping my list post Orr (inclusive)
1) Wayne Gretzky
2) Bobby Orr
3) Mario Lemieux
4) Ray Bourque
5) Dominik Hasek
6) Peter Stastny
7) Patrick Roy
8) Denis Potvin
9) Nicklas Lidstrom
10) Jagr/Sakic/Forsberg (can't really decide)
I don't understand how you could have Stastny above Messier or Jagr (among others).
I think at their peak, Stastny was more dominant than Messier.
At his peak, Messier won two Hart Trophies and a runner-up against the primes of Gretzky, Lemieux, Bourque, and Roy - all four have been named in this thread on multiple occasions.
At his peak, Messier won two Hart Trophies and a runner-up against the primes of Gretzky, Lemieux, Bourque, and Roy - all four have been named in this thread on multiple occasions.
Trophies are trophies. But he was not as dominant as Stastny. Something could be said that Messier had more of the intangibles and his perfomance in the 94 playoffs made him a legend. Because of his leadership an argument could be made that Messier was a better hockey player than Stastny but Stastny's dominance could be brought up for the opposite argument.
Trophies are trophies. But he was not as dominant as Stastny. Something could be said that Messier had more of the intangibles and his perfomance in the 94 playoffs made him a legend. Because of his leadership an argument could be made that Messier was a better hockey player than Stastny but Stastny's dominance could be brought up for the opposite argument.
He was a 1st Ballot HOF lock and the second-leading playoff scorer of all-time before the trade to New York was a twinkle in Neil Smith's eye.
Two Cups as starter, three finals appearances, a second-team selection. Nobody would have batted an eyelash had Osgood won the Smythe in 2008 or 2009, and he would have been an acceptable winner in 1998 as well.
Let's also run the numbers.
13 goaltenders lost more games than Osgood; only three of them actually played more. Osgood had the best winning percentage of any goaltender who played a significant number of games. Osgood was behind only Brodeur in wins over the period, despite spending some time in a tandem or backup situation.
He had more playoff wins than anyone but Brodeur or Roy. Better playoff record than Hasek, Belfour, Brodeur, Luongo, or just about anyone else with any significant number of games.
So in terms of individual play, one or two good playoff runs qualify him as a top-10 player?
Granted, it's not the greatest era in history but I'm pretty sure guys like Thornton, Iginla and St. Louis have a much stronger portfolio of individual accomplishments.
I just think Stastny was just that little bit better, second to the Great One in points in the 80's and even as an Oilers fan, I'm just not that high on Messier he just doesn't do it for me. Until the Lemieux burst onto the scene I think Stastny was the most dominant non oilers in the league for a period. I understand some people placing him lower on their lists, or not at all I just think that's where he ranks.
He was a 1st Ballot HOF lock and the second-leading playoff scorer of all-time before the trade to New York was a twinkle in Neil Smith's eye.
Playing for most of his career for the mighty Edmonton Oilers. That cannot be discounted. Stastny for quite a while always ended in the NHL top three scorers in the 80s with Coffey and Gretzky while playing with the average Quebec Nordiques. Put him with the Oilers and it would be a whole other ball game. Not to mention he was in the Czech Republic for a part of his career.
Nope Niedermayer/Bourque were better than Pronger since the mid-90s though Pronger's peak was pretty damn good. I'd say he's a tear below and closer to Rob Blake.
Pronger is easily the second best defenseman from 94-95 on. He's the only one who legitimately challenged Lidstrom during his prime, and as you may recall you already discounted Gretzky, Lemieux, and Bourque from the list (hence their absences on my adapted version).
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What Selanne did since the mid-90s is more impressive than Lindros though Lindros certainly was a more unique player.
Lindros won a Hart and carried his team to the Cup final, and was very strongly in the debate for "best player in hockey" for a period of about four or five years. Selanne was a consistent, reliable scorer but his name almost never entered "best in the world" territory.
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And I was only looking at players who were at or near the end of their career originally but you can't put Osgood there. He was a decent goalie on high end teams. I'd put Luongo/Kiprusoff and maybe even a few others like Lundqvist ahead of Osgood. Probably Nabakov too for a time period though his playoff performances make him go down. Certainly if you're making a top 10 then you don't put any 4th goalie on there ahead of a skater from that era. Was a good era for skaters, terrible for goalies outside the big 3.
Not even sure what you mean here. You remove Gretz/Lemieux/Bourque due to retirement, but include retired and active players, and now say you're only looking at players at or near the end of their career? And even so... how does that affect the recently retired Osgood. Or the retired Lindros.
Yes, including four goalies is probably excess, and perhaps there are better choices than Osgood. But not many.
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey
So in terms of individual play, one or two good playoff runs qualify him as a top-10 player?
Granted, it's not the greatest era in history but I'm pretty sure guys like Thornton, Iginla and St. Louis have a much stronger portfolio of individual accomplishments.
Thornton, Iginla, and St. Louis have such a depth of portfolio themselves? Osgood was one of the league's best goalies most of his career.
Playing for most of his career for the mighty Edmonton Oilers. That cannot be discounted. Stastny for quite a while always ended in the NHL top three scorers in the 80s with Coffey and Gretzky while playing with the average Quebec Nordiques. Put him with the Oilers and it would be a whole other ball game. Not to mention he was in the Czech Republic for a part of his career.
It's possible that Stastny's production would have decreased in Edmonton with Gretzky understandably getting the optimal minutes. I agree that Stastny deserves consideration for his time in Czechoslovakia since he was one of the best players over there for a time.
I just think Stastny was just that little bit better, second to the Great One in points in the 80's and even as an Oilers fan, I'm just not that high on Messier he just doesn't do it for me. Until the Lemieux burst onto the scene I think Stastny was the most dominant non oilers in the league for a period. I understand some people placing him lower on their lists, or not at all I just think that's where he ranks.
I just don't think Stastny did much to distinguish himself from Denis Savard and Dale Hawerchuk. I think he was probably slightly better than them, but not much. Hawerchuk by the way is 2nd to Gretzky for the 10 year period from 1981-82 to 1990-91, but that period doesn't line up neatly with the 1980s. Hawerchuk is also 3rd behind Gretzky and Lemieux for 1982-83 to 1991-92.
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Originally Posted by Kimota
Playing for most of his career for the mighty Edmonton Oilers. That cannot be discounted. Stastny for quite a while always ended in the NHL top three scorers in the 80s with Coffey and Gretzky while playing with the average Quebec Nordiques. Put him with the Oilers and it would be a whole other ball game. Not to mention he was in the Czech Republic for a part of his career.
Stastny was a top 3 scorer twice.
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Originally Posted by JackSlater
It's possible that Stastny's production would have decreased in Edmonton with Gretzky understandably getting the optimal minutes. I agree that Stastny deserves consideration for his time in Czechoslovakia since he was one of the best players over there for a time.
Stastny won the Golden Hockey Stick for best player in Czechoslovakia in his final season there. But he wasn't close to winning it in any season prior.
Stastny won the Golden Hockey Stick for best player in Czechoslovakia in his final season there. But he wasn't close to winning it in any season prior.
I'm aware, but I don't think he just came out of nowhere to win the award either given his consistent scoring both domestically and internationally.
I have him 13th just behind Jagr. He is rated fairly poorly by a lot of people compared to the type of numbers he put up. He set an NHL record 126 points in a year where Orr was still a 60 point player, that says something to me.
Yup I have Espo at that 10, 11, 12 mix too. I think him and Guy are neck and neck but Guy gets the nod because he was the best player on his team.
Also in that mix of just outside the top 10 is Potvin. IMO he was just that much better than Bourque and Lidstrom. It's very close between the three but Potvin was just as good as them offensively and defensively but also played with a huge chip on his shoulder.
Orr - Forget the great stats and youtube vids, you just needed to see Orr play. Nobody dominated the entire ice like him. He would control the puck for 85% of the time he spent out on the ice.
Gretzky
Howe
Lemieux - Its funny how you can make a case for any of these top four guys being the #1 and not be wrong. Lemieux is the best hockey player I've ever seen play. Not even Orr could bend the game to his will like Lemieux did. Where Orr held on to the puck and controled plays for most of the game, Lemieux could score a goal that just left your jaw dropped on the floor, get the crowd buzzing and left teams deflated. Then if a team went at him it was like poking a lion. There was a fear factor with him that was almost shark like. At the same time, I just can't give him credit for games not played and when you put together a list like this it counts.
Hull
Richard
Shore
Beliveau
Sawchuk
Lafleur
Esposito
Harvey
Potvin
Hall
Gretzky
Orr
Hasek
Bossy
Denis Savard
Paul Coffey
Guy Lafleur
Howe
Richard
Sakic-Yzerman
What makes you rank those players above Howe? Specifically, Bossy, Savard, Coffey and Lafleur. Also, did you forget Lemieux? Because I can't think of any reason to leave him off of this list.
