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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part VII: The Last Waltz "Cut the sheet & drop the puck!"

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Old
11-21-2012, 03:36 PM
  #401
Thirty One
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torts Kinda Guy View Post
Am I the only one that thinks the PA has given up enough already with this proposal? I fail to see where the NHL is making any concessions towards the PA.
Seriously though, no, there are lots of people that view it that way. I personally don't think of what's a fair deal by looking at what's been given up. The PA had a great deal and they should be expected to give up a lot of ground, IMO.

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Originally Posted by Torts Kinda Guy View Post
Once you give up some thing, your never going to get it back.
That's especially true for lost wages.

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Old
11-21-2012, 03:36 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by BBKers View Post
Did anyone here - especially knowing the "players" at the table - expect The NHL to respond to the NHLPA offer today by proclaiming "Great. We got we wanted. Thanx a lot for those concessions. Now we have a deal!"???

This is a process

Wherever it ends...
The hope was that they'd say "OK, here is something we can work off of."

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Old
11-21-2012, 03:38 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by Torts Kinda Guy View Post
Am I the only one that thinks the PA has given up enough already with this proposal? I fail to see where the NHL is making any concessions towards the PA. I hope the players stand strong and only sign a contract that they can live with. Once you give up some thing, your never going to get it back.
If you look at the current financial landscape of the NHL, its quite clear that players need to be making concessions.

If you're handicapping this situation using the (several) mistakes the league and Bettman have made in the past, I can see how this thought process is the prevalent one.

Unfortunately, if past drama is still playing a role in the here and now, there wont be a season.

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Old
11-21-2012, 03:39 PM
  #404
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Yawn, they are just meeting to meet.. They must be offering free drinks all around or something.

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Old
11-21-2012, 03:39 PM
  #405
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
The hope was that they'd say "OK, here is something we can work off of."
Unfortunately I personally know a few too many billionaires. They NEVER would play the game like that. Hence they are billionaires...

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11-21-2012, 03:40 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by Torts Kinda Guy View Post
Am I the only one that thinks the PA has given up enough already with this proposal? I fail to see where the NHL is making any concessions towards the PA. I hope the players stand strong and only sign a contract that they can live with. Once you give up some thing, your never going to get it back.
What?!?!? The players simply repackaged the same old "we won't gibe up anything we already have, but we're open to discussing how to cut up any growth beyond what we already have" proposal that they've been making all along.

Now, it is encouraging that the frameworks seem much closer and that they lowered their demand to get paid every penny of current contracts by $200MM (which is a out what's been lost due to cancelled games, right?). If they can cut a couple of the clauses that effectively neuter linkage, both sides should be able to start moving toward the middle and/or trading gives clause by clause.

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Old
11-21-2012, 03:43 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
Seriously though, no, there are lots of people that view it that way. I personally don't think of what's a fair deal by looking at what's been given up. The PA had a great deal and they should be expected to give up a lot of ground, IMO.
Just because the players made out decently under the last deal doesn't make it a great deal for them. There's no context involved when you look at it that way. It was a bad deal for them that turned out okay because there were record revenues. The average salary of the players went up 25% ($1.8m to $2.4m) while league revenues went up 57% ($2.1B to $3.3B).

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Old
11-21-2012, 03:46 PM
  #408
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David Pagnotta ‏@TheFourthPeriod
While I'm not in NYC, just told Gary Bettman will be addressing the media shortly. Should be interesting.

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11-21-2012, 03:46 PM
  #409
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Color me not surprised.

*Yawn* Still think we have no season, have thought that since the puck dropped last year.

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Old
11-21-2012, 03:50 PM
  #410
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Can these guys make up their minds?

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One movement on part of NHL, they did move on term of entry level to 3 years
https://twitter.com/aaronward_nhl/st...54018897473536

They proposed 5 years in July. 2 years guaranteed and 3 team options. Then they proposed 2 years. Now they moved it back to 3 years where its been since 1995.

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Old
11-21-2012, 03:50 PM
  #411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
What?!?!? The players simply repackaged the same old "we won't gibe up anything we already have, but we're open to discussing how to cut up any growth beyond what we already have" proposal that they've been making all along.

Now, it is encouraging that the frameworks seem much closer and that they lowered their demand to get paid every penny of current contracts by $200MM (which is a out what's been lost due to cancelled games, right?). If they can cut a couple of the clauses that effectively neuter linkage, both sides should be able to start moving toward the middle and/or trading gives clause by clause.
What's wrong with that? I fail to see why they must instantly go to 50/50. I don't think its to outlandish that their % drops every year until its 50/50. And I don't see whats so wrong with Teams having to honor contracts that they offered. The NHL acts as tho 1/2 of their franchises are going to file for Burbank if they don't get 50/50 right now. If that was the case, why did they extend the last CBA 3 times after it expired?

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Old
11-21-2012, 03:52 PM
  #412
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Quote:
This is the difference between the two offers: NHL: 55.5%-51.5-50-50-50. NHLPA: 56.3%-53.8-52-50-50. It's absurd how small it is.
https://twitter.com/mirtle/status/271352591923957762

Getting closer.

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Old
11-21-2012, 03:53 PM
  #413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torts Kinda Guy View Post
If that was the case, why did they extend the last CBA 3 times after it expired?
That did not happen. The old last CBA was six years with an option for a 7th. The option was exercised (it was the players option, I believe).

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Old
11-21-2012, 03:53 PM
  #414
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Quote:
Bettman: "We're still far apart. But hopefully there's some momentum so we can bring this to a conclusion."
https://twitter.com/ChrisBottaNHL/st...55567807815680

Quote:
Bettman acknowledges movement by PA, says it's good to finally have a full union proposal on table
https://twitter.com/NYDNRangers/stat...55630416175104

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Old
11-21-2012, 03:56 PM
  #415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Sounds like posturing on Bettman's part based on the second half of that quote. To me it sounds like they probably not far off and Bettman knows it but he wants a little more.

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11-21-2012, 03:57 PM
  #416
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Fehr and Bettman are playing their roles.

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Old
11-21-2012, 04:03 PM
  #417
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the one thing i hate about negotiations is, we all know how it's going to end up. both sides know. the players are going to lose a lot, the owners wont get everything they want...and in the end the only thing thats guaranteed are the fans will lose.

i just hate how predictable and yet destructive this all is. id make a horrible negotiator since id just see both sides, try to meet halfway to start, and the other side would see that as weakness and get me to cave altogether since im not willing to jeopardize the season.

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Old
11-21-2012, 04:04 PM
  #418
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Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger
Bettman now in a discussion with a fan...cameras rolling. Tells fan the union hasn't been willing to negotiate.

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Old
11-21-2012, 04:09 PM
  #419
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Despite the negativity displayed by the PA before, I am more confident than ever that a deal will get done soon.

This is the first time Bettman has truly been positive after a PA proposal. No negativity on the NHL side is pretty huge as far as the negotiations go. They are getting pretty close here.

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Old
11-21-2012, 04:12 PM
  #420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Not really

The NHLPA wants guaranteed 2-5 with no linkage ,, Not gonna fly

The NHLPA offer wont really go to 50/50 without linkage

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTruck View Post
Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger
Bettman now in a discussion with a fan...cameras rolling. Tells fan the union hasn't been willing to negotiate.
Which is true

Refused months of NHL efforts to begin talks starting back in January of 2011 and until today hadn't made a real proposal

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTruck View Post
Despite the negativity displayed by the PA before, I am more confident than ever that a deal will get done soon.

This is the first time Bettman has truly been positive after a PA proposal. No negativity on the NHL side is pretty huge as far as the negotiations go. They are getting pretty close here.
Cant say I agree with you here

The NHLPA's refusal to include legit linkage in there proposals and demands for more $$$ via make whole on top of it are nonstarters

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Old
11-21-2012, 04:20 PM
  #421
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@MichaelDelZotto: @StuBickel take a 2, 5 and 10 on Gary.


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Old
11-21-2012, 04:39 PM
  #422
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@MichaelDelZotto: @StuBickel take a 2, 5 and 10 on Gary.

Well he's a Ranger so he'll get fined.

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Old
11-21-2012, 04:42 PM
  #423
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Originally Posted by Riche16 View Post
The very idea of a "make whole" is a contradiction. If the players are made whole, they're getting more than 50%... And if they're getting 50%... Then their contracts are not being honored in full.

It's all a bs way of steadily decreasing to 50/50. Which is why thie shouldn't be taking this long to figure out.
Nothing wrong with paying contracts signed. Nothing wrong with easing into the 50-50 ONLY by fact that existing contracts are paid. As Bettman loves to point to other professional sports leagues and what they have done in CBA's, why is the NHL the ONLY professional sports league where a contract signed between owners and players a point of negotiation?

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Old
11-21-2012, 04:43 PM
  #424
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Just because the NHL hasn't liked a deal doesn't mean the union hasn't been negotiating. It can be said the league hasn't negotiated as they haven't made a single concession to get their demands.

Because the NHL said they wanted to sit down in 2011 doesn't mean they've negotiated until recently. If they just intended to throw that first offer out last year, they had no intentions of meaningful bargaining. Double standards here.

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Old
11-21-2012, 04:48 PM
  #425
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Originally Posted by BOXPLAY View Post
This is just going to keep dragging on until the players give in. The owners can afford to play this game the players can not
Umtil next season, when the owners begin to face a scenario where not only have they lost revenue and have to pay fixed costs again, but ALSO now face the fact that they have not sold a single season ticket. There are a handfull of franchises that will not survive that.

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