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Lockout thread #2: mediation done - no progress

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Old
11-21-2012, 03:15 PM
  #476
Jimmi McJenkins
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Originally Posted by Blue And Orange View Post
How is anyone supporting one side over the other. Whenever I read TSN's comments and their blind fanatical pro-owner stance just makes me wanna smash my head throw the screen.

I blame the players for being greedy for starters, but the owners are equally guilty. Ever since that insulting offer the owners gave to teh PA with the 43% offer back in July, CBA negotiations went off the rails. This is pure greed shown on both sides.

Last lockout, I was on the owners side and for good reasons.
TSN (Rogers) owns a team so I would suspect they would come out that way.

And you're right that initial offer was fairly laughable (though the longer this goes the more likely that will look), but if the players are still hung up on that, they need to get over themselves.

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Old
11-21-2012, 03:20 PM
  #477
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Originally Posted by Jimmi Jenkins View Post
TSN (Rogers) owns a team so I would suspect they would come out that way.

And you're right that initial offer was fairly laughable (though the longer this goes the more likely that will look), but if the players are still hung up on that, they need to get over themselves.
I'm not talking about TSN sportscasters. I'm talking about the users and readers that comment on the "Your Call" session.

But yea, this whole lockout was completely pointless. There is absolutely no reason to lose a season because of what they're fighting for. It's illogical. At least in 2004, the owners and Bettman had a purpose and a goal that they were determined to get because the NHL was in dire straits.

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Old
11-21-2012, 03:26 PM
  #478
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Originally Posted by Blue And Orange View Post
I'm not talking about TSN sportscasters. I'm talking about the users and readers that comment on the "Your Call" session.

But yea, this whole lockout was completely pointless. There is absolutely no reason to lose a season because of what they're fighting for. It's illogical. At least in 2004, the owners and Bettman had a purpose and a goal that they were determined to get because the NHL was in dire straits.
I would say the NHL is in pretty dire straights right now. Half the teams are losing money, that has to be changed. Pretty sure the NHLPA doesn't want to see a 20 team league.

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11-21-2012, 03:27 PM
  #479
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Edit: duplicate post


Last edited by McJadeddog: 11-21-2012 at 03:34 PM.
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Old
11-21-2012, 03:31 PM
  #480
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Originally Posted by Blue And Orange View Post
How is anyone supporting one side over the other. Whenever I read TSN's comments and their blind fanatical pro-owner stance just makes me wanna smash my head throw the screen.

I blame the players for being greedy for starters, but the owners are equally guilty. Ever since that insulting offer the owners gave to teh PA with the 43% offer back in July, CBA negotiations went off the rails. This is pure greed shown on both sides.

Last lockout, I was on the owners side and for good reasons.
Lots of blame to go around, heck fans filling arenas are to blame as well.

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11-21-2012, 03:34 PM
  #481
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Originally Posted by Blue And Orange View Post
How is anyone supporting one side over the other. Whenever I read TSN's comments and their blind fanatical pro-owner stance just makes me wanna smash my head throw the screen.

I blame the players for being greedy for starters, but the owners are equally guilty. Ever since that insulting offer the owners gave to teh PA with the 43% offer back in July, CBA negotiations went off the rails. This is pure greed shown on both sides.

Last lockout, I was on the owners side and for good reasons.
I'm on the side of the owners.


Bettman at his highest aspiration, wants parity in the sport, grow the sport economically, and wants to push NHL competition to it's highest level.

Fehr at his highest aspiration would want to break the game, remove growth, and ultimately ensure the sport is completely unfair.


How anyone sides with the NHLPA is beyond me.

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Old
11-21-2012, 03:42 PM
  #482
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Originally Posted by OilerNut View Post
I would say the NHL is in pretty dire straights right now. Half the teams are losing money, that has to be changed. Pretty sure the NHLPA doesn't want to see a 20 team league.
The NHL just hit record revenues last season and popularity in the US was starting to pick up momentum. The league has competitive balance and parity. What more does the NHL want.

The NHL before the 04 lockout, the league was bleeding from its throat and needed a radical economic change and fans reluctantly supported the owners despite losing that year.

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Old
11-21-2012, 03:43 PM
  #483
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Originally Posted by Perfect_Drug View Post
I'm on the side of the owners.


Bettman at his highest aspiration, wants parity in the sport, grow the sport economically, and wants to push NHL competition to it's highest level.

Fehr at his highest aspiration would want to break the game, remove growth, and ultimately ensure the sport is completely unfair.


How anyone sides with the NHLPA is beyond me.
If this was 2004, yes I would support Bettman 100%. But the dynamic of this lockout is different than the last.

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Old
11-21-2012, 03:48 PM
  #484
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The outright rejection of the PA's offer is what is bothering me the most.

It obviously had some flaws but I thought it was good enough to base a counter proposal off of. I'm not pro-PA now by any means but the NHL just lost a lot of my support. (Not that it means anything to them.)

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Old
11-21-2012, 03:50 PM
  #485
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Originally Posted by Blue And Orange View Post
The NHL just hit record revenues last season and popularity in the US was starting to pick up momentum. The league has competitive balance and parity. What more does the NHL want.

The NHL before the 04 lockout, the league was bleeding from its throat and needed a radical economic change and fans reluctantly supported the owners despite losing that year.
I bet they hit record expenses too. Lots of people seem to like using that revenue as a good thing, Bettman did, but record revenues doesn't always equal a league that is successful.

Kinda like how which ever team hosts an outside game ends up with a higher average attendance for the year. Take that one game out and all of a sudden things might not look as pretty.

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11-21-2012, 03:51 PM
  #486
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Originally Posted by Perfect_Drug View Post
I'm on the side of the owners.


Bettman at his highest aspiration, wants parity in the sport, grow the sport economically, and wants to push NHL competition to it's highest level.

Fehr at his highest aspiration would want to break the game, remove growth, and ultimately ensure the sport is completely unfair.


How anyone sides with the NHLPA is beyond me.
Actually, I am astonished at how anyone can pick either side over the other.

And the fact that fans continue to be misled into believing there is some sort of possibility of one side being right or wrong...only delays a deal getting reached.

The sooner everyone accepts that both owners and players are equally blamed here...and then walk away from the NHL completely...the sooner the entire league will be forced to ratify a deal.

But as long as we, the fans, lend an ear to the rhetoric...the longer both sides will waste OUR time by trying to gain leverage for their cause via the fans.

We need to send a simple message to BOTH sides:

You don't have our support. Were disgusted. Your losing fans. Forever.

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Old
11-21-2012, 04:03 PM
  #487
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Originally Posted by Blue And Orange View Post
The NHL just hit record revenues last season and popularity in the US was starting to pick up momentum. The league has competitive balance and parity. What more does the NHL want.

The NHL before the 04 lockout, the league was bleeding from its throat and needed a radical economic change and fans reluctantly supported the owners despite losing that year.
Probably for all owners to be able to exist and not claim bankruptcy. Half of the owners right now are losing money and are better off with a lockout. That right there should tell you that the players need to take a paycutt, or risk losing their jobs. Unfortunately the players don't care or are uninformed.

You obviously believe that in 2004, the owners were in trouble. The league actually owns a team right now due to bankruptcy and half the teams lose money. Do you really think the owners, as a whole, are better off in 2012 than 2004?

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Old
11-21-2012, 04:13 PM
  #488
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Originally Posted by ponokanocker View Post
Probably for all owners to be able to exist and not claim bankruptcy. Half of the owners right now are losing money and are better off with a lockout. That right there should tell you that the players need to take a paycutt, or risk losing their jobs. Unfortunately the players don't care or are uninformed.

You obviously believe that in 2004, the owners were in trouble. The league actually owns a team right now due to bankruptcy and half the teams lose money. Do you really think the owners, as a whole, are better off in 2012 than 2004?
Yes I am aware that the league is owning a team in the middle of the Arizona ****ing desert where nobody gives 2 ***** about hockey. Good lord, if we lose a season just to save a few sunbelt teams, I'm sooooooo done with this league.

This league is more dysfunctional than a used hyundai from the 1980s.

Seriously, most of the teams that are losing money are non-playoff teams and/or sunbelt teams. Why not just move teams like PHX, FLA, and TB to Canadian cities like QUE, Hamilton, and Markham?

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Old
11-21-2012, 04:54 PM
  #489
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Originally Posted by RipsADrive View Post
The outright rejection of the PA's offer is what is bothering me the most.

It obviously had some flaws but I thought it was good enough to base a counter proposal off of. I'm not pro-PA now by any means but the NHL just lost a lot of my support. (Not that it means anything to them.)
Any offer which even hints at removal of linkage will be outright rejected.

The owners cancelled a season to get linkage to HRR they will not give it up. The sooner Fehr accepts this the better for everyone involved.

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Old
11-21-2012, 05:00 PM
  #490
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Originally Posted by ponokanocker View Post
Probably for all owners to be able to exist and not claim bankruptcy. Half of the owners right now are losing money and are better off with a lockout. That right there should tell you that the players need to take a paycutt, or risk losing their jobs. Unfortunately the players don't care or are uninformed.

You obviously believe that in 2004, the owners were in trouble. The league actually owns a team right now due to bankruptcy and half the teams lose money. Do you really think the owners, as a whole, are better off in 2012 than 2004?
I have to say I am starting to almost be completly on the side of the owners. The owners winning is the only way the league will remain viable and in the best interest of future players. IMO the current players are starting to look selfish, they basically want all that is owed to them knowing that it will hurt players not under contract and future players.

As you said half the teams are losing money. That isn't viable. Sure there are some teams like the leafs. However, it just isn't realistic to ask them to keep 15 teams afloat. THe players have to take a cut. It is the only way the league will live. If hte players got everything they wanted it would basically garuntee that 5 teams will go under in the next 5 years.

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Old
11-21-2012, 05:15 PM
  #491
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Originally Posted by Blue And Orange View Post
Yes I am aware that the league is owning a team in the middle of the Arizona ****ing desert where nobody gives 2 ***** about hockey. Good lord, if we lose a season just to save a few sunbelt teams, I'm sooooooo done with this league.

This league is more dysfunctional than a used hyundai from the 1980s.

Seriously, most of the teams that are losing money are non-playoff teams and/or sunbelt teams. Why not just move teams like PHX, FLA, and TB to Canadian cities like QUE, Hamilton, and Markham?
I agree that the attempt at sunbelt teams has turned out to be a disaster. I can see why they tried it(millions upon millions of people), but it has not worked out well. Expansion has helped the players though, who now employ a lot more people because of the risk the owners took. There was no risk for the players in this, only opportunity for more jobs. Hopefully the league will correct this and move a few more teams.

And yes, most teams that missed the playoffs didn't make money. The difference between being in the red and black for quite a few teams was the playoffs, yet they couldn't jack up their payroll(more stupid contracts) as they were already on a thin line.

If you think all they need to do is move non-profitable teams out of the sunbelt and into Canadian cities, name me 15 Canadian cities that you think could turn a profit with an NHL team that don't already have teams? Also, don't forget that the Canadian dollar is rocking right now. That might not always be the case, and if it does go down, so does profitability in Canadian cities.

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11-21-2012, 05:20 PM
  #492
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Originally Posted by Perfect_Drug View Post
I'm on the side of the owners.


Bettman at his highest aspiration, wants parity in the sport, grow the sport economically, and wants to push NHL competition to it's highest level.

Fehr at his highest aspiration would want to break the game, remove growth, and ultimately ensure the sport is completely unfair.


How anyone sides with the NHLPA is beyond me.
How you came to this conclusion is beyond me.

If they want parity and economic viability so bad increase revenue sharing.

And how does battling for wage protection affect growth exactly?

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Old
11-21-2012, 05:24 PM
  #493
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Originally Posted by AlanHUK View Post
Any offer which even hints at removal of linkage will be outright rejected.

The owners cancelled a season to get linkage to HRR they will not give it up. The sooner Fehr accepts this the better for everyone involved.
^
Exactly

NHL has said from day one any offer without it was nonstarter ,, So far NHLPA has yet to include an offer that isn't a nonstarter

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11-21-2012, 05:28 PM
  #494
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Originally Posted by AlanHUK View Post
Any offer which even hints at removal of linkage will be outright rejected.

The owners cancelled a season to get linkage to HRR they will not give it up. The sooner Fehr accepts this the better for everyone involved.
And yet it is linkage that is killing them (owners, supposedly).

Funny that.

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11-21-2012, 05:28 PM
  #495
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Originally Posted by Blue And Orange View Post
Yes I am aware that the league is owning a team in the middle of the Arizona ****ing desert where nobody gives 2 ***** about hockey. Good lord, if we lose a season just to save a few sunbelt teams, I'm sooooooo done with this league.

This league is more dysfunctional than a used hyundai from the 1980s.

Seriously, most of the teams that are losing money are non-playoff teams and/or sunbelt teams. Why not just move teams like PHX, FLA, and TB to Canadian cities like QUE, Hamilton, and Markham?
It's not just those teams that are losing money. Ottawa and Calgary are barely turning a profit ($2.8M and $1.1M respectively) Bump the cap/floor up a couple million (as happened this summer) and drop the loonie a couple of cents and they are quickly in the red.

Team that are losing money according to Forbes (numbers that the PA has NOT challenged):

Phoenix, Columbus, Tampa Bay, Anaheim, NY Islanders, San Jose, Washington, Nashville, Florida, New Jersey, Minnesota, Buffalo, Winnipeg, Carolina, St Louis, LA, Dallas, and Pittsburgh.

That's quite the list.

Teams making less than $5M profit: Calgary, Boston, Ottawa, and Philadelphia.

Of the 12 teams in the black, Toronto and Montreal combined make more than the other 10 combined. Only Toronto, Montreal, NY Rangers, Vancouver, Edmonton, and Detroit show profits of more than $10M.

I'm sorry - but this is a broken system. Just 7 years ago we had a floor of $23M and a cap of $39M. The freaking floor is not almost 50% higher than the CAP was. That is nuts. It is not sustainable.

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11-21-2012, 05:31 PM
  #496
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IMO, if players costs were more contained, maybe there'd no longer be this ludicrous practice of teams needing non-HRR from their arenas in order to be viable.

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11-21-2012, 05:31 PM
  #497
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Originally Posted by AlanHUK View Post
Any offer which even hints at removal of linkage will be outright rejected.

The owners cancelled a season to get linkage to HRR they will not give it up. The sooner Fehr accepts this the better for everyone involved.
Actually the owners cancelled a season to get a cap. The owners wanted a fixed cap, it's the PA in 2005 that wanted a % of HRR.

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Old
11-21-2012, 06:04 PM
  #498
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Originally Posted by Hoogaar23 View Post
It's not just those teams that are losing money. Ottawa and Calgary are barely turning a profit ($2.8M and $1.1M respectively) Bump the cap/floor up a couple million (as happened this summer) and drop the loonie a couple of cents and they are quickly in the red.

Team that are losing money according to Forbes (numbers that the PA has NOT challenged):

Phoenix, Columbus, Tampa Bay, Anaheim, NY Islanders, San Jose, Washington, Nashville, Florida, New Jersey, Minnesota, Buffalo, Winnipeg, Carolina, St Louis, LA, Dallas, and Pittsburgh.

That's quite the list.

Teams making less than $5M profit: Calgary, Boston, Ottawa, and Philadelphia.

Of the 12 teams in the black, Toronto and Montreal combined make more than the other 10 combined. Only Toronto, Montreal, NY Rangers, Vancouver, Edmonton, and Detroit show profits of more than $10M.

I'm sorry - but this is a broken system. Just 7 years ago we had a floor of $23M and a cap of $39M. The freaking floor is not almost 50% higher than the CAP was. That is nuts. It is not sustainable.
Even if its true, its not worth losing a season just for this crap. The owners are just playing hardball. I thought today's concessions the players made were pretty reasonable.

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Old
11-21-2012, 06:05 PM
  #499
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Today was not a bad day even though it seems like it was if you go to tsn it says "no progress" well i don't think thats true the pa moved significantly closer to what the nhl wants and made a good offer today

Quote:
Originally Posted by RipsADrive View Post
The outright rejection of the PA's offer is what is bothering me the most.

It obviously had some flaws but I thought it was good enough to base a counter proposal off of. I'm not pro-PA now by any means but the NHL just lost a lot of my support. (Not that it means anything to them.)
This also really bothered me the league should have at least took a day to consider it is bettman really expecting fehr to call him one day and say "hey we'll take your offer" all i heard bettman say to the media today was we made our best offer already
However i think when they meet again likely on friday after tempers cool and things settle hopefully they can discuss ways to move closer to each other
I've always blamed both sides and find it unfair to side with the owners or the players but right now the owners need to make the next move on friday if the league wont move at all from the offer they made to save an 82 game season then were going nowhere
After today i think its fair to say the gap has been bridged slightly they have essentially agreed to a framework

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11-21-2012, 06:06 PM
  #500
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Originally Posted by Blue And Orange View Post
Yes I am aware that the league is owning a team in the middle of the Arizona ****ing desert where nobody gives 2 ***** about hockey. Good lord, if we lose a season just to save a few sunbelt teams, I'm sooooooo done with this league.

This league is more dysfunctional than a used hyundai from the 1980s.

Seriously, most of the teams that are losing money are non-playoff teams and/or sunbelt teams. Why not just move teams like PHX, FLA, and TB to Canadian cities like QUE, Hamilton, and Markham?
Um, perhaps you should learn a bit more about why there is a lockout.

When the average owner is making the same money as an average (i.e. 3rd line) NHL player, there's a problem.

There's more teams than just Phoenix, Florida and Tampa Bay that are in trouble. Probably at least half the teams in the league are making very little money or is in the red. Are you going to find new places to move for all of them?

What arena is there in Quebec CURRENTLY for an NHL team to move to now? I can't see Toronto allowing any new NHL teams to move to Markham or Hamilton. All of your suggestions are not realistic.

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