HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Post your top ten players of All-time

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-20-2012, 04:12 PM
  #226
Elever
Hth
 
Elever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,459
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Assuming the list starts in 1994-95, it should look more like this (split up by F/D/G, not listed by ability):

Sakic
Jagr
Yzerman
Lindros

Lidstrom
Pronger

Hasek
Brodeur
Roy
Osgood
Nope Niedermayer/Bourque were better than Pronger since the mid-90s though Pronger's peak was pretty damn good. I'd say he's a tear below and closer to Rob Blake.

What Selanne did since the mid-90s is more impressive than Lindros though Lindros certainly was a more unique player.

And I was only looking at players who were at or near the end of their career originally but you can't put Osgood there. He was a decent goalie on high end teams. I'd put Luongo/Kiprusoff and maybe even a few others like Lundqvist ahead of Osgood. Probably Nabakov too for a time period though his playoff performances make him go down. Certainly if you're making a top 10 then you don't put any 4th goalie on there ahead of a skater from that era. Was a good era for skaters, terrible for goalies outside the big 3.

Elever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-20-2012, 04:15 PM
  #227
Machinehead
★★★★
 
Machinehead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: New York New York
Country: United States
Posts: 34,099
vCash: 500
Shocked at the lack of love for Messier in this thread.

He's only what, 2nd all-time in points??

Machinehead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-20-2012, 04:16 PM
  #228
ResilientBeast
MLFH Edmonton Titans
 
ResilientBeast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,042
vCash: 1170
I'm quite young so my opinion is a little skewed but I've seen all the greats play at least a few times. I'm keeping my list post Orr (inclusive)

1) Wayne Gretzky
2) Bobby Orr
3) Mario Lemieux
4) Ray Bourque
5) Dominik Hasek
6) Peter Stastny
7) Patrick Roy
8) Denis Potvin
9) Nicklas Lidstrom
10) Jagr/Sakic/Forsberg (can't really decide)

ResilientBeast is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-20-2012, 06:33 PM
  #229
Kimota
Nation of Poutine
 
Kimota's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: La Vieille Capitale
Country: France
Posts: 21,779
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
Shocked at the lack of love for Messier in this thread.

He's only what, 2nd all-time in points??
Messier was great no question about it and I wouldn't have a problem if someone would have him in their Top 10. But it wouldn't shock if he was not there too. Because just as a forward, was he better than Gordie, than the Rocket, than Beliveau, than Bobby Hul, than Lafleur?

Kimota is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-20-2012, 06:37 PM
  #230
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 39,174
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ResilientBeast View Post
I'm quite young so my opinion is a little skewed but I've seen all the greats play at least a few times. I'm keeping my list post Orr (inclusive)

1) Wayne Gretzky
2) Bobby Orr
3) Mario Lemieux
4) Ray Bourque
5) Dominik Hasek
6) Peter Stastny
7) Patrick Roy
8) Denis Potvin
9) Nicklas Lidstrom
10) Jagr/Sakic/Forsberg (can't really decide)
I don't understand how you could have Stastny above Messier or Jagr (among others).

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-20-2012, 06:40 PM
  #231
Kimota
Nation of Poutine
 
Kimota's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: La Vieille Capitale
Country: France
Posts: 21,779
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I don't understand how you could have Stastny above Messier or Jagr (among others).
I think at their peak, Stastny was more dominant than Messier.

Kimota is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-20-2012, 06:48 PM
  #232
quoipourquoi
Goaltender
 
quoipourquoi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hockeytown, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 3,193
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
I think at their peak, Stastny was more dominant than Messier.
At his peak, Messier won two Hart Trophies and a runner-up against the primes of Gretzky, Lemieux, Bourque, and Roy - all four have been named in this thread on multiple occasions.

quoipourquoi is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-20-2012, 06:51 PM
  #233
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ResilientBeast View Post
6) Peter Stastny


Stastny for me is one of a couple guys I would consider for the #10 spot... among centers who played during Stastny's career.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-20-2012, 07:00 PM
  #234
Kimota
Nation of Poutine
 
Kimota's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: La Vieille Capitale
Country: France
Posts: 21,779
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
At his peak, Messier won two Hart Trophies and a runner-up against the primes of Gretzky, Lemieux, Bourque, and Roy - all four have been named in this thread on multiple occasions.
Trophies are trophies. But he was not as dominant as Stastny. Something could be said that Messier had more of the intangibles and his perfomance in the 94 playoffs made him a legend. Because of his leadership an argument could be made that Messier was a better hockey player than Stastny but Stastny's dominance could be brought up for the opposite argument.

Kimota is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-20-2012, 07:16 PM
  #235
quoipourquoi
Goaltender
 
quoipourquoi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hockeytown, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 3,193
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Trophies are trophies. But he was not as dominant as Stastny. Something could be said that Messier had more of the intangibles and his perfomance in the 94 playoffs made him a legend. Because of his leadership an argument could be made that Messier was a better hockey player than Stastny but Stastny's dominance could be brought up for the opposite argument.
He was a 1st Ballot HOF lock and the second-leading playoff scorer of all-time before the trade to New York was a twinkle in Neil Smith's eye.

quoipourquoi is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-20-2012, 07:17 PM
  #236
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 32,436
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Two Cups as starter, three finals appearances, a second-team selection. Nobody would have batted an eyelash had Osgood won the Smythe in 2008 or 2009, and he would have been an acceptable winner in 1998 as well.

Let's also run the numbers.

13 goaltenders lost more games than Osgood; only three of them actually played more. Osgood had the best winning percentage of any goaltender who played a significant number of games. Osgood was behind only Brodeur in wins over the period, despite spending some time in a tandem or backup situation.

He had more playoff wins than anyone but Brodeur or Roy. Better playoff record than Hasek, Belfour, Brodeur, Luongo, or just about anyone else with any significant number of games.
So in terms of individual play, one or two good playoff runs qualify him as a top-10 player?

Granted, it's not the greatest era in history but I'm pretty sure guys like Thornton, Iginla and St. Louis have a much stronger portfolio of individual accomplishments.

tarheelhockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-20-2012, 07:44 PM
  #237
ResilientBeast
MLFH Edmonton Titans
 
ResilientBeast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,042
vCash: 1170
I just think Stastny was just that little bit better, second to the Great One in points in the 80's and even as an Oilers fan, I'm just not that high on Messier he just doesn't do it for me. Until the Lemieux burst onto the scene I think Stastny was the most dominant non oilers in the league for a period. I understand some people placing him lower on their lists, or not at all I just think that's where he ranks.

ResilientBeast is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-20-2012, 07:52 PM
  #238
cupcrazyman
In Shanny We Trust
 
cupcrazyman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Parts Unknown
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,359
vCash: 500
1.Wayne Gretzky
2.Bobby Orr
3.Gordie Howe
4.Mario Lemieux
5.Maurice Richard
6.Jean Beliveau
7.Bobby Hull
8.Mark Messier
9.Terry Sawchuk
10.Patrick Roy

cupcrazyman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-20-2012, 07:58 PM
  #239
Kimota
Nation of Poutine
 
Kimota's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: La Vieille Capitale
Country: France
Posts: 21,779
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
He was a 1st Ballot HOF lock and the second-leading playoff scorer of all-time before the trade to New York was a twinkle in Neil Smith's eye.
Playing for most of his career for the mighty Edmonton Oilers. That cannot be discounted. Stastny for quite a while always ended in the NHL top three scorers in the 80s with Coffey and Gretzky while playing with the average Quebec Nordiques. Put him with the Oilers and it would be a whole other ball game. Not to mention he was in the Czech Republic for a part of his career.

Kimota is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-20-2012, 08:59 PM
  #240
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuietCompany View Post
Nope Niedermayer/Bourque were better than Pronger since the mid-90s though Pronger's peak was pretty damn good. I'd say he's a tear below and closer to Rob Blake.
Pronger is easily the second best defenseman from 94-95 on. He's the only one who legitimately challenged Lidstrom during his prime, and as you may recall you already discounted Gretzky, Lemieux, and Bourque from the list (hence their absences on my adapted version).

Quote:
What Selanne did since the mid-90s is more impressive than Lindros though Lindros certainly was a more unique player.
Lindros won a Hart and carried his team to the Cup final, and was very strongly in the debate for "best player in hockey" for a period of about four or five years. Selanne was a consistent, reliable scorer but his name almost never entered "best in the world" territory.

Quote:
And I was only looking at players who were at or near the end of their career originally but you can't put Osgood there. He was a decent goalie on high end teams. I'd put Luongo/Kiprusoff and maybe even a few others like Lundqvist ahead of Osgood. Probably Nabakov too for a time period though his playoff performances make him go down. Certainly if you're making a top 10 then you don't put any 4th goalie on there ahead of a skater from that era. Was a good era for skaters, terrible for goalies outside the big 3.
Not even sure what you mean here. You remove Gretz/Lemieux/Bourque due to retirement, but include retired and active players, and now say you're only looking at players at or near the end of their career? And even so... how does that affect the recently retired Osgood. Or the retired Lindros.

Yes, including four goalies is probably excess, and perhaps there are better choices than Osgood. But not many.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
So in terms of individual play, one or two good playoff runs qualify him as a top-10 player?

Granted, it's not the greatest era in history but I'm pretty sure guys like Thornton, Iginla and St. Louis have a much stronger portfolio of individual accomplishments.
Thornton, Iginla, and St. Louis have such a depth of portfolio themselves? Osgood was one of the league's best goalies most of his career.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-20-2012, 09:17 PM
  #241
JackSlater
Registered User
 
JackSlater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,968
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Playing for most of his career for the mighty Edmonton Oilers. That cannot be discounted. Stastny for quite a while always ended in the NHL top three scorers in the 80s with Coffey and Gretzky while playing with the average Quebec Nordiques. Put him with the Oilers and it would be a whole other ball game. Not to mention he was in the Czech Republic for a part of his career.
It's possible that Stastny's production would have decreased in Edmonton with Gretzky understandably getting the optimal minutes. I agree that Stastny deserves consideration for his time in Czechoslovakia since he was one of the best players over there for a time.

JackSlater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-20-2012, 09:25 PM
  #242
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 39,174
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ResilientBeast View Post
I just think Stastny was just that little bit better, second to the Great One in points in the 80's and even as an Oilers fan, I'm just not that high on Messier he just doesn't do it for me. Until the Lemieux burst onto the scene I think Stastny was the most dominant non oilers in the league for a period. I understand some people placing him lower on their lists, or not at all I just think that's where he ranks.
I just don't think Stastny did much to distinguish himself from Denis Savard and Dale Hawerchuk. I think he was probably slightly better than them, but not much. Hawerchuk by the way is 2nd to Gretzky for the 10 year period from 1981-82 to 1990-91, but that period doesn't line up neatly with the 1980s. Hawerchuk is also 3rd behind Gretzky and Lemieux for 1982-83 to 1991-92.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Playing for most of his career for the mighty Edmonton Oilers. That cannot be discounted. Stastny for quite a while always ended in the NHL top three scorers in the 80s with Coffey and Gretzky while playing with the average Quebec Nordiques. Put him with the Oilers and it would be a whole other ball game. Not to mention he was in the Czech Republic for a part of his career.
Stastny was a top 3 scorer twice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
It's possible that Stastny's production would have decreased in Edmonton with Gretzky understandably getting the optimal minutes. I agree that Stastny deserves consideration for his time in Czechoslovakia since he was one of the best players over there for a time.
Stastny won the Golden Hockey Stick for best player in Czechoslovakia in his final season there. But he wasn't close to winning it in any season prior.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-20-2012, 10:13 PM
  #243
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 32,436
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Thornton, Iginla, and St. Louis have such a depth of portfolio themselves?
You realize those three led their generation in scoring?

Quote:
Osgood was one of the league's best goalies most of his career.
By "one of", I assume you mean top-20 or so? Because he surely wasn't top-3 or close to it at any point in his career.

tarheelhockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-20-2012, 11:00 PM
  #244
kmad
Riot Survivor
 
kmad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 32,056
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Esposito behind Messier is absolutely silly.

What exactly did Messier do that makes him better than Esposito?
More points, greater legacy, better playoff record.

kmad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-20-2012, 11:48 PM
  #245
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,108
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
By "one of", I assume you mean top-20 or so? Because he surely wasn't top-3 or close to it at any point in his career.
If there's any goaltender that screams "system goalie" it's Osgood.....

Morgoth Bauglir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2012, 12:09 AM
  #246
JackSlater
Registered User
 
JackSlater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,968
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Stastny won the Golden Hockey Stick for best player in Czechoslovakia in his final season there. But he wasn't close to winning it in any season prior.
I'm aware, but I don't think he just came out of nowhere to win the award either given his consistent scoring both domestically and internationally.

JackSlater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2012, 09:04 AM
  #247
#66
Registered User
 
#66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Country: United States
Posts: 10,290
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Taylor View Post
I have him 13th just behind Jagr. He is rated fairly poorly by a lot of people compared to the type of numbers he put up. He set an NHL record 126 points in a year where Orr was still a 60 point player, that says something to me.
Yup I have Espo at that 10, 11, 12 mix too. I think him and Guy are neck and neck but Guy gets the nod because he was the best player on his team.

Also in that mix of just outside the top 10 is Potvin. IMO he was just that much better than Bourque and Lidstrom. It's very close between the three but Potvin was just as good as them offensively and defensively but also played with a huge chip on his shoulder.

Orr - Forget the great stats and youtube vids, you just needed to see Orr play. Nobody dominated the entire ice like him. He would control the puck for 85% of the time he spent out on the ice.

Gretzky
Howe

Lemieux - Its funny how you can make a case for any of these top four guys being the #1 and not be wrong. Lemieux is the best hockey player I've ever seen play. Not even Orr could bend the game to his will like Lemieux did. Where Orr held on to the puck and controled plays for most of the game, Lemieux could score a goal that just left your jaw dropped on the floor, get the crowd buzzing and left teams deflated. Then if a team went at him it was like poking a lion. There was a fear factor with him that was almost shark like. At the same time, I just can't give him credit for games not played and when you put together a list like this it counts.

Hull
Richard
Shore
Beliveau
Sawchuk
Lafleur
Esposito
Harvey
Potvin
Hall

#66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2012, 03:10 PM
  #248
livewell68
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,853
vCash: 500
There is no way Esposito, Roy, Potvin, Sawchuk, Messier or Lafleur should be ahead of Jagr.

livewell68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2012, 03:28 PM
  #249
jack mullet
@jackmullethockey
 
jack mullet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Baxter, MN
Country: United States
Posts: 483
vCash: 500
my top 10

Gretzky
Orr
Hasek
Bossy
Denis Savard
Paul Coffey
Guy Lafleur
Howe
Richard
Sakic-Yzerman

jack mullet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-21-2012, 03:38 PM
  #250
Fred Taylor
The Cyclone
 
Fred Taylor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,918
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack mullet View Post
my top 10

Gretzky
Orr
Hasek
Bossy
Denis Savard
Paul Coffey
Guy Lafleur
Howe
Richard
Sakic-Yzerman
What makes you rank those players above Howe? Specifically, Bossy, Savard, Coffey and Lafleur. Also, did you forget Lemieux? Because I can't think of any reason to leave him off of this list.

Fred Taylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:49 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.